What's up with Kyrie Irving and Flat Earth?

[Tarii_2sweet]

I'm amazed at how people can find things to disagree to get our minds off what's really going on in the earth. People must really have a great deal ofprivilege to find something to debate about nonsense.

not talking about anyone on here btw but the flat earth ideal.

[caleb4life]

not talking about anyone on here btw but the flat earth ideal.

Thanks for your note, dear sister!

I completely understand how nonsensical the flat earth talk may seem. It’s often painful for me to propagate an idea that is so contrary to everything we’ve been taught our whole lives. Yet I’m compelled to continue seeking the truth of the matter.

It’s become inextricable from the gospel in my life and while I have far more questions than answers, I’m increasingly living in peace and experiencing peace amidst seasons of cognitive dissonance. Which reminds me of the passage in Ephesians 2:4 that says “He Himself is our peace”, so I’m in good hands. As are all who call on the Lord from a pure heart! May it be so among us!

Love you all so much!

Thanks for chiming in sister and blessings on your day!

P.S. I hope to respond to more of Nathan’s excellent points and questions in time....

[Nathan Smart]

It’s become inextricable from the gospel in my life and while I have far more questions than answers...

At the risk of you missing some of my other questions, can you also include an expansion on this quote? Are you saying that flat-earth is part of the gospel?

[caleb4life]

At the risk of you missing some of my other questions, can you also include an expansion on this quote? Are you saying that flat-earth is part of the gospel?

Your questions are so on point bro!

I will absolutely answer your question, but before doing so, I am interested to hear how you define “the gospel”?

The last thing I want to do is pour out my heart only to find out that we are not on the same page about what is the gospel.

Does that make sense, dear brother?

[Nathan Smart]

Your questions are so on point bro!

I will absolutely answer your question, but before doing so, I am interested to hear how you define “the gospel”?

The last thing I want to do is pour out my heart only to find out that we are not on the same page about what is the gospel.

Does that make sense, dear brother?

I think I take a standard view of the gospel which is that we are all sinners, saved by grace, not by works and that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave, etc., etc. There is plenty to the gospel - lots of different aspects - but the gist is the explanation of Jesus' role in the world and a how-to for salvation.

[caleb4life]

I think I take a standard view of the gospel which is that we are all sinners, saved by grace, not by works and that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave, etc., etc. There is plenty to the gospel - lots of different aspects - but the gist is the explanation of Jesus' role in the world and a how-to for salvation.

I am not kidding you when I say I’ve tried to reply to your post for the past few days, only to be thwarted every time!

There is so much more I want to share than I will write here in the moment, but I had a couple brief minutes and wanted to at least let you know I’m still here!

Thank you for what you shared, and I say a hearty “AMEN” to the aspects of the gospel you mentioned!

I’m short, I don’t like to boil down Biblical cosmology to being either “flat earth” or “globe earth”, because quite frankly, (aside from 2 Samuel 11:11 in the 1537 translation of the Matthews Bible), the Scriptures don’t mention either phrase!

That said, when I mention Biblical cosmology being inextricable from the gospel, what I mean is the “good news” of true Biblical cosmology, is inextricable from Christ Jesus, our Creator!

Also, regarding former NASA employees, aside from Tracy Moran, I am only currently familiar with three others with former employment connections, none being high level scientists or astronauts.

What proof would I need to be compelled to consider we live on a spinning globe that orbits the sun? Well, for starters, I would need to receive revelation from Christ Jesus that the Bible supports such a cosmology.

Secondly, it would help to be able to observe even just a hint of curvature, which should not be too difficult since the mathematical formula for “rate of curve”, is eight inches per mile, squared. Now, like I’ve said before, I am not that bright of a bulb, and quickly get lost in technicalities. Still, at that rate of curvature, there are objects that should be “hidden below the curve” that simply are not (at distances over 40-60 miles for example). Granted, my personal experimentation testing these things are limited, I remain compelled by others who have presented their conclusions. I accept their “evidence”, and have taken it under consideration.

I also wanted to say I appreciate your mention of “evidences”, which compel you to believe we live on a globe.

Prior to your reply, I was mixing up the words “proof” and “evidence” in my brain. I can accept that you take peoples testimonies (like astronauts), and images/videos, NASA material as “evidence”. That’s different than saying it’s “proof”.

What I should have asked is “what proof do you have?” that we live on a spinning globe?

My proof for saying we do not live on a spinning globe is that I don’t feel like I’m spinning, and I have yet to personally observe any curvature, even though according to the reported size of the “globe”, we should be able to observe curvature without having to ride in a rocket to do so.

Ok, that’s all I have time for right now dear brother, but again, I’m am so thankful for your continued questions and sincerity!

Much love bro!

[Nathan Smart]

That said, when I mention Biblical cosmology being inextricable from the gospel, what I mean is the “good news” of true Biblical cosmology, is inextricable from Christ Jesus, our Creator!

Can you expound on this a little?

What proof would I need to be compelled to consider we live on a spinning globe that orbits the sun? Well, for starters, I would need to receive revelation from Christ Jesus that the Bible supports such a cosmology.

You don't consider evidence in nature to be revelation?

Secondly, it would help to be able to observe even just a hint of curvature, which should not be too difficult since the mathematical formula for “rate of curve”, is eight inches per mile, squared. Now, like I’ve said before, I am not that bright of a bulb, and quickly get lost in technicalities. Still, at that rate of curvature, there are objects that should be “hidden below the curve” that simply are not (at distances over 40-60 miles for example). Granted, my personal experimentation testing these things are limited, I remain compelled by others who have presented their conclusions. I accept their “evidence”, and have taken it under consideration.

I tried to find some video that shows when an object "hides below the curve" and I found a lot. But for every one of them, there was an hour long video that claimed to debunk each one. The evidence in those videos is not compelling to someone who believes in a round earth (and it really isn't on us to prove this), but I assume that you are predertermined to buy into those much more than the videos I would send you (since you are basing everything on a literal translation of those scriptures). So, this really is kind of a pointless endeavor, unless, like you said, Jesus himself comes down and says, "Dude, IT'S ROUND," or I guess if you personally went to space and saw it (though I would not be 100% certain that you would believe your own eyes based on how strongly you believe in biblical literalism - that's not a diss, btw, just an observation).

I also wanted to say I appreciate your mention of “evidences”, which compel you to believe we live on a globe.

Prior to your reply, I was mixing up the words “proof” and “evidence” in my brain. I can accept that you take peoples testimonies (like astronauts), and images/videos, NASA material as “evidence”. That’s different than saying it’s “proof”.

Well, then I guess you have a lot of explaining to do for the Bible and Jesus since we don't have much "proof" of his life and resurrection - only testimony. Right?

What I should have asked is “what proof do you have?” that we live on a spinning globe?

Well, I would say film and photography is pretty much the definition of "proof" but since you don't buy that any of it's real, then there's no point in laying it out for you.

My proof for saying we do not live on a spinning globe is that I don’t feel like I’m spinning, and I have yet to personally observe any curvature, even though according to the reported size of the “globe”, we should be able to observe curvature without having to ride in a rocket to do so.

This article is a great explanation for why we don't feel the spinning: http://earthsky.org/earth/why-cant-we-feel-earths-spin

Long story short: think about when you're in a car going 75 miles an hour and you're drinking coffee. Your coffee isn't flying out of your mug because you and the mug are moving at the same speed as the car. If the car abruptly stops, though, that coffee is going right in your face! Same thing with the earth - if the earth ever abruptly stops, you'll feel it!!

[caleb4life]

Can you expound on this a little?

With Christ Jesus being the Creator, then what has been recorded in the Holy Spirit inspired Biblical account regarding cosmology, can be trusted (of course, by faith). My confidence is in Christ Jesus as the living embodiment of all truth (i.e. gospel, good news). But that's also the reason I keep saying that I have received personal revelation on the matter, and is something that I have to accept by faith, since I cannot physically "prove" it (because I was not there at Creation, and cannot yet see all of Creation from his vantage point).

You don't consider evidence in nature to be revelation?

I absolutely do consider evidence in nature as one of the means that He delivers revelation, certainly that's been the case in my own personal journey. That's why I keep talking about how important my "personal observations" have been (limited though they are). Still, my plumb line for truth, if you will, are the Scriptures, but that's with a caveat. It's the Scriptures as illuminated by Christ Jesus Himself, through the Holy Spirit (our perfect Teacher). So, to summarize, the combination of personal observations (in nature), combined with revelation from Christ Jesus of the Scriptural teaching on cosmology, has led me to the current convictions I hold.

So, this really is kind of a pointless endeavor

Hahah! I hear you brother, and can sympathize with that sentiment. Even so, I totally appreciate your patience with me on all this. There are now countless videos on both sides of the "debate", and one could grow weary if they were to try and watch all of them to discern the truth of the matter. That's why I have been increasingly interested in carrying out my own experiments. I am not interested in being swayed back and forth by other people's arguments, even though I'm open to listening to what anyone has to say.

Well, then I guess you have a lot of explaining to do for the Bible and Jesus since we don't have much "proof" of his life and resurrection - only testimony. Right?

I am living proof (thus far), but I know that's not what you are getting at..... Even so, I'm either the most deceived man on earth, to be pitied by all, or there is something to this Risen Christ Jesus, of whom I gladly boast!

OK, gotta run....but regarding how you finished your last post, with that great explanation of why I don't feel the spin....I have more to say on that, as it relates to the supposed "vacuum of space", but I'll have to write more some other time.

Blessings to you dear brother Nathan!

[The Light Within]

Forget the last few sentences regarding global warming, however it still stands to reason that we have two poles (north and south).



From my city it would take 46 hours to drive to the town of took in the Arctic Circle. There's even a highway we can travel on all the way. Canada is truly linked coast to coast to coast.

[caleb4life]

Dear Nathan,

Could you let me know what you think about this video?

https://youtu.be/T6zq_wrP7n4?list=PL...2lv9DstbisMosn

I’ve been thinking a lot about the “arguments” that attempt to convince us that we are spinning (to help us understand why we can’t “feel it”), and brother, I am just not convinced at all.

Still, I commend you for your kindness in long suffering with me on these matters. I receive it as a grace from God!!

[Nathan Smart]

Dear Nathan,

Could you let me know what you think about this video?

https://youtu.be/T6zq_wrP7n4?list=PL...2lv9DstbisMosn

I’ve been thinking a lot about the “arguments” that attempt to convince us that we are spinning (to help us understand why we can’t “feel it”), and brother, I am just not convinced at all.

Still, I commend you for your kindness in long suffering with me on these matters. I receive it as a grace from God!!

Of course you're not convinced! It goes against what you "want" to believe so it's harder for you to understand it. Also, any evidence I can give you that goes against your arguments (which is already weird because the onus is on you to prove your arguments since you are challenging the status quo) is tainted because it comes from scientists and the government who are supposedly lying about it all.

Do you see how it's kind of an impossible debate to have? All of the mainstream, widely accepted evidence for a globe earth is not real in your mind so it's impossible to give any argument that would convince you. It's like if I was trying to convince you that the color blue is actually red and you gave me the argument that the molecules (or whatever) that make up something "blue" are present and then I said, "Well, there's no such thing as molecules - the people that came up with molecules are lying to you." There would be no way you could convince me to believe that blue is blue because there is no other outside evidence beyond what scientists have already discovered and know to be true about the color blue.

I watched a little bit of the video above but honestly, it's just out of my range of knowledge and interest. I'm not an engineer or a mathematician so those kinds of details usually go over my head. I watched a couple of answer videos to his and it sounds like he is off in his math which is throwing off all of his ideas. Here's one that I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qafZWt0hzGo

But, as you know, I believe that NASA is telling the truth and so the photographic evidence is enough for me. There isn't going to be a math equation that would convince me otherwise, unless of course, every scientist on earth agreed with it and our understanding changed.

[caleb4life]

Hey brother Nathan! How have you been man?

When you said this:

Do you see how it's kind of an impossible debate to have?

....it definitely gave me pause (and partially why it's taken me so long to reply). I totally know what you mean, since both of us are deeply convinced in our minds, and not likely to be swayed to the "other side", no matter how much "evidence" or "debate" is had. I have watched a fare amount of Greater Sapiens videos, and my heart goes out to the brother. He seems like a very genuine guy, and I respect his commitment to logic, as he perceives it. But I perceive that he and I have such fundamental differences in world view (I say that in my opinion, because I have not personally spoken with him, nor could I say that I truly know him), that it's difficult for me to make it very far in accepting his work as legitimate "evidence". Especially when I now have personal first-hand physical evidence (observations using my God-given senses), that supports my awakening to true Biblical cosmology. Know what I mean?

That said, I do want to address something else you said, to clarify where I'm coming from.

You said:

It goes against what you "want" to believe so it's harder for you to understand it.

As best I can tell (and of course I'm biased, well, because I'm me), but as sincerely as I can possibly be, I want to make it clear that my quest is for the truth, not just believing something because "I want to".

My journey of re-examining hundreds of Bible verses (like the ones posted here), has been quite the stretching and humbling experience, and not one that I sought out with any personal agenda, beyond seeking truth. Which continues to this day!

Regarding any "evidence" you have presented thus far, since ultimate reliance for the veracity of it is rooted in government agencies (and those employed therein), yes, I confess, it will be very difficult for me to accept it, since so far I see zero Biblical support for it.

I'm wide open to considering observable, repeatable experiments that are deemed "scientific proof" of something, but photos, video's and testimonies of people I do not know, not so much. When I say that, I'm most interested in experiments showing water sticking to a spinning ball, and water curving (not finding it's level).

Still, all that said, I do appreciate the time you've taken to patiently and respectfully engage in this discussion with me.

Side note: For anyone who may perceive this discussion as a waste of time, while the topic of "Creation cosmology" in and of itself may seem mundane, I believe the implications of living in a world system that is under the power of the god of this world (father of lies) is of no small significance. Would you agree? I also believe that reality should compel us to pursue the good news (gospel) of the Truth (Christ Jesus!) all the more in these days! I'm sure we agree that He is the way, the truth and the life, and that His word is always faithful and true! When I say that, by no means does that imply "check your brains at the door, and don't use any logic" either.....lest anyone thing it's all just a bunch of ethereal "theory" that I espouse. I believe Christ Jesus is the MOST practical, sound, reasonable, logical thinker, in this history of the Universe, and we would do well to mature to His fullness in that regard as well. Lord, help! May we be filled with the Holy Spirit!

(If my tone is condescending in that side note, please let me know, because I struggle to convey the spiritual matters on my heart at times!)

Anyway, to the degree that you have been encouraging me (spurring me on) to do this very thing, I thank you dear Nathan!!!

Much love to you bro!

[Nathan Smart]

As best I can tell (and of course I'm biased, well, because I'm me), but as sincerely as I can possibly be, I want to make it clear that my quest is for the truth, not just believing something because "I want to".

My journey of re-examining hundreds of Bible verses (like the ones posted here), has been quite the stretching and humbling experience, and not one that I sought out with any personal agenda, beyond seeking truth. Which continues to this day!

This is really the first problem. You are using the bible incorrectly. It's not supposed to be a science textbook. For instance, you don't start with the bible if you're trying to figure out what the best exercise to lose weight is for you. You just try out different exercises and see which one works best. Or, you don't start with the bible to see if a certain chemical is flamable. You just take that chemical and put some fire on it and see what happens. You don't use the bible - which is a religious and philosophical text - to figure out the best way to cook an onion. You are too stuck on that to see any evidence that goes against it.

Here's another example: in Leviticus, the bible talks about insects having four legs, but we know that's not true. They have six legs. Does that mean scientists are wrong about how many legs an insect has? Are mathematicians wrong about the concept of number 6? Is it really 4? Or, is the God lying to us and everything else is wrong in the bible too? The answer to all those questions is NO! You aren't supposed to take things like that literally. There are plenty of little things like that where the original writers of the bible wouldn't have the same kind of information we have today to write correctly about scientific matters. It's okay! The bible doesn't need to be correct about those things! It only needs to be correct about Jesus and the nature of God.

(btw, I've seen the responses to this from AIG and ICR and it's a complete copout to say that they didn't have our modern understanding of animal designations. It actually refutes their own arguments that we are to take the bible literally at its word. By even admitting that God didn't reveal our modern understanding of insects to the original writers says that we are allowed to accept that the bible isn't supposed to be used in this way.)

I'm wide open to considering observable, repeatable experiments that are deemed "scientific proof" of something, but photos, video's and testimonies of people I do not know, not so much. When I say that, I'm most interested in experiments showing water sticking to a spinning ball, and water curving (not finding it's level).

This is honestly a baffling statement. Here is an example of what you're saying but posed against one of your arguments:

Regarding any "evidence" you have presented thus far, since ultimate reliance for the veracity of it is rooted in government agencies (and those employed therein), yes, I confess, it will be very difficult for me to accept it, since so far I see zero Biblical support for it.

So, I have seen this claim made repeatedly that the government is involved in this great cover up. Before I can believe something like that, I need to see some evidence. Can you prove to me, without a doubt, that the government is covering all of this up? I need actual proof I can personally observe. I don't want photos or videos or testimonies. I want actual documents (and even then how do I know you didn't make them yourself) and I want to talk to the people involved.

Do you see how it's impossible to find the truth when you are unaccepting of BASIC kinds of scientific evidence??? Photos, videos, testimonies - how can any of us function without those kinds of evidence??? How could a court of law EVER find anyone guilty or innocent without that. What if you were accused of murder and there was a picture that showed you at your mom's house at the time of the murder and it proves you are innocent (but you took the picture so they would consider it tainted)? Would you want them to deny you the possibility of showing that evidence?

Furthermore, how can you be sure of even the truth of the bible and Jesus? The ONLY evidence you have is PURELY testimonial! You have not observed Jesus and were not there to see him raise from the dead. If we were all forced to use your version of "provable" evidence for anything else in life, we would all fail the test and no one would ever be able to believe anything - and certainly not Jesus.

[caleb4life]

You are using the bible incorrectly. It's not supposed to be a science textbook.

I appreciate what you are saying and remain open to this. It grieves me to consider the possibility that I'm using the Bible incorrectly. I am going to be praying into this dear brother. It has huge implications for my whole life.

That said, I would like to clarify how I believe I'm using the Bible, in the context of creation cosmology. Namely, as a God-inspired truthful story (narrative) of the reality of the nature of what He has created, as it relates to the shape and immovable nature of the earth, and the relation of the sun, moon and stars to this earth (that they all move overhead).

That's all. I readily admit there are innumerable scientific realities that the Bible does not speak to directly.

Regarding using the Bible for things like diet, I actually believe a TON of helpful and healthy principles can be gleaned from reading, understanding and heeding the Bible. But I know what you mean with what you were saying.

As for the insect thing, I have not looked into that....very interesting...I'm going to check it out a bit! Thanks for that!

Regarding my claim about the god of this world lying, with some level of complicit human agents among the governments of this world, that is not the basis of my cosmological belief, or even argument. It's only an obvious realization, if you will. I say God's word is true (which I believe by faith). I say I have first-hand, personal, observations, which are compelling enough to corroborate what I now believe God's word teaches. I don't have "documents" that "prove" a cover up. I don't need them. Still, I can appreciate how for you, that would be required at this point in your journey.

Now, I'm sure you've seen the youtube videos by some folks claiming "government documents prove flat earth", but I'm not citing those. While I would not rule it out, I certainly would not look to any documents (outside of the Bible) as trustworthy, in and of themselves. No thanks.

Yes, you are correct, my belief in Christ Jesus as having risen from the dead is based on pure personal testimony, given what he's accomplished in revealing how sinful I am, and how grace-filled and merciful He is! But it's not solely based on my own personal testimony. I also have the Biblical testimony, and other saints that I know personally, who share in the testimony of the power of His life, death and resurrection.

I absolutely realize that faith is required to believe in Christ Jesus and God's Word. A stationary, non curving earth, well, that's actually observable to me personally, at least from my vantage point, which is definitely limited. Thankfully, I have a clear conscience on the matter as of right now, while remaining open to being wrong (or still deceived).

[Nathan Smart]

I appreciate what you are saying and remain open to this. It grieves me to consider the possibility that I'm using the Bible incorrectly. I am going to be praying into this dear brother. It has huge implications for my whole life.

It does have implications! But, not the kind that you might think. For instance, it doesn't change the story of Jesus to realize that the writers didn't have modern scientific knowledge.

That's all. I readily admit there are innumerable scientific realities that the Bible does not speak to directly.

And of course, with science, it's not just one part of science that is needed to prove something. With the shape of the Earth, every part of science comes into play, and math as well. And if the bible doesn't speak to it all, then we have to use our God-given sense to understand our God-given nature. If God doesn't lie, and nature is God's creation, then evidence in nature doesn't lie either.

As for the insect thing, I have not looked into that....very interesting...I'm going to check it out a bit! Thanks for that!

At the risk of diluting my argument, AIG and ICR both have articles about this. I disagree with them, but I'm sure you'll end up there anyways. I thought I would just save you the headache!

Regarding my claim about the god of this world lying, with some level of complicit human agents among the governments of this world, that is not the basis of my cosmological belief, or even argument. It's only an obvious realization, if you will. I say God's word is true (which I believe by faith). I say I have first-hand, personal, observations, which are compelling enough to corroborate what I now believe God's word teaches. I don't have "documents" that "prove" a cover up. I don't need them. Still, I can appreciate how for you, that would be required at this point in your journey.

I know you don't need them - you believe it. The rest of the world does. You can't make a claim like, "Water is dry," not provide the evidence and expect us to go along with it. That the governments of the ENTIRE world are in kahoots and covering up a flat earth requires some evidence for anyone to believe that.

Now, I'm sure you've seen the youtube videos by some folks claiming "government documents prove flat earth", but I'm not citing those. While I would not rule it out, I certainly would not look to any documents (outside of the Bible) as trustworthy, in and of themselves. No thanks.

If you go to school to become a pastor and study the bible your entire life - I would be inclined to treat your "documents" as trustworthy. I may not agree with them, but I wouldn't rule them out because they weren't just directly quoted from the bible. The same with science. If you study science your whole life and have a degree and years of experience with experiments, etc., it's okay to accept those documents as trustworthy. Again, you might disagree, but only because you've consulted other experts and have evidence to back it up.

Just because you personally don't observe a phenomenon (that's impossible to observe, btw) doesn't mean it's not true. It just means that, like I said, you can't observe it without the proper equipment or knowledge or you aren't in the right place to observe it.

Think of it this way: do you believe in things like germs? Things that are microscopic? Do you believe in viruses? I mean, the only evidence we have for them is that we made a microscope powerful enough to see them. But you don't have access to that microscope and, chances are, you never will. So, how do you know for sure that they are real?

Yes, you are correct, my belief in Christ Jesus as having risen from the dead is based on pure personal testimony, given what he's accomplished in revealing how sinful I am, and how grace-filled and merciful He is! But it's not solely based on my own personal testimony. I also have the Biblical testimony, and other saints that I know personally, who share in the testimony of the power of His life, death and resurrection.

So, just testimony. Earlier you said that wasn't enough evidence for you to believe something. So, why do you believe in Jesus then?

I absolutely realize that faith is required to believe in Christ Jesus and God's Word. A stationary, non curving earth, well, that's actually observable to me personally, at least from my vantage point, which is definitely limited. Thankfully, I have a clear conscience on the matter as of right now, while remaining open to being wrong (or still deceived).

I think you nailed it with, "my vantage point, which is definitely limited." That is the real problem here. Your vantage point on observable evidence for a flat earth is way too limited to be able to actually prove something like that. So, until you can go up into space and actually see the flat earth, there's no way you will be able to convince any average person that your viewpoint is true.

[The Light Within]

Here's another example: in Leviticus, the bible talks about insects having four legs, but we know that's not true. They have six legs. Does that mean scientists are wrong about how many legs an insect has? Are mathematicians wrong about the concept of number 6? Is it really 4? Or, is the God lying to us and everything else is wrong in the bible too? The answer to all those questions is NO! You aren't supposed to take things like that literally. There are plenty of little things like that where the original writers of the bible wouldn't have the same kind of information we have today to write correctly about scientific matters. It's okay! The bible doesn't need to be correct about those things! It only needs to be correct about Jesus and the nature of God.

I'm loving the dialogue in this topic between you and Caleb. Something to quickly point out is that scripture actually reads as such: The various winged insects that walk on all fours are loathsome for you. But of the various winged insects that walk on all fours you may eat those that have jointed legs for leaping on the ground (Leviticus 11:20-21) This is why John the Baptist's "food was locusts and wild honey" (Matthew 3:4). This is one of the few times in the Bible where translators have real trouble with nouns. The Hebrew idiom "on all fours" refers to any creature that crawls low to the ground on at least four legs.

[caleb4life]

So, just testimony. Earlier you said that wasn't enough evidence for you to believe something. So, why do you believe in Jesus then?

Good day to you dear brother! A key distinction to my acceptance of personal testimony as "evidence" of anything is if I know the person. The better I perceive I know them, the more likely I am to trust their testimony as true. So, the reason I believe in Jesus is because he has revealed himself to me, and I am getting to personally know him.

You will notice in my earlier comments that the reason I'm hesitant to accept NASA's testimony is not because I don't accept testimony in general, but because I don't know any NASA astronauts who have reportedly seen the blue marble. Of course this would never have even been a discussion for me prior to 2015, and so as we have discussed, there area far more factors involved than just "I don't trust NASA" going on here. That is actually quite low on my list of factors for reconsidering the reality of the nature of the earth that we live on. But even if I were to meet an astronaut, and listen to their first-hand testimony, I would be reluctant to automatically "believe" we live on a spinning ball just through that. Why? Because of my more intimate, lengthy relationship with the Creator, who has confirmed his vantage point to me through the Bible. That's going to be difficult for me to set aside, for an astronaut. Do you understand what I mean, brother?

You also commented:

It does have implications! But, not the kind that you might think.

The implications I was speaking of is that I tend to take the Bible quite literally, and believe the stories as historically accurate and true, including the book of Genesis account of creation and cosmology. So if I'm using the Bible incorrectly in that manner, then I am surely to be one of the most pitied individuals on this earth. While I remain open to be corrected, through means of dear fellow saints that speak truth into my life, and ultimately God Himself continuing to reveal truth, for now, I must keep a clear conscience, even if that means maintaining a world view about cosmology that goes against what modern "science" teaches. The reason I put "science" in italics there, is because I still contend that showing images from space of a blue marble is not "science".

But of course I'm not using "science" as an argument for why I believe we live on a stationary, not-spherical earth. I'm taking God's word literally, and also using my first-hand, personal observations of never seeing the curve, when according to the math (the reported rate of curve is eight inches per mile squared), I should be able to observe it well before climbing 40,000 feet in an airplane. Yet all I see is the flat horizon rising to my eye level.

The reason I say my vantage point is limited is because personally, I've never been higher than 40,000 feet above the earth. Nor have I personally conducted the myriad of experiments that many others have, in their attempts to arrive at the truth.

there's no way you will be able to convince any average person that your viewpoint is true.

I 100% agree, and that is not my aim in life (or even this thread), at all. My aim is to know Christ Jesus, and to help others get to know Him, in spirit and truth. How do I do that? Through my own personal testimony and experience of knowing Him. I love Romans 1 (I probably mentioned this chapter earlier too), because the apostle Paul is quick to reference creation as one of the primary realities that prove God (Christ Jesus), and that no one has an excuse, since the beginning. I say that to intimate one reason I'm comfortable even talking about creation cosmology as much as I have been. It matters tremendously, because truth matters.

The thing is, I believe the Creator of the Universe has chosen to personally reveal the truth to me about this aspect of his creation, (through his word, by His Spirit), and so there is a tremendous amount of peace that passes understanding that comes with that revelation. It's also liberating because I know it's not my responsibility to convince anyone of it. If it's truth, then it's truth, no matter what anyone else has to say on the matter. Of course like I've already said, truth also fears no investigation. Which is why I continue to listen to and consider what you are saying, my dear brother.

I am also absolutely capable of being deceived. I do not want to be deceived. I believe God's word is always faithful and true, and even though it was written in ancient times, by people whom I would not consider "scientists", I also do not believe the creator of the Universe would inspire them to write a story that says the "sun stood still", if it did not. Sorry, I just can't make that leap of faith right now.

[Nathan Smart]

Good day to you dear brother! A key distinction to my acceptance of personal testimony as "evidence" of anything is if I know the person. The better I perceive I know them, the more likely I am to trust their testimony as true. So, the reason I believe in Jesus is because he has revealed himself to me, and I am getting to personally know him.

Well, I never fault anyone for having faith in Jesus! I'm just trying to get you to see the fault in your arguments for flat earth.

You will notice in my earlier comments that the reason I'm hesitant to accept NASA's testimony is not because I don't accept testimony in general, but because I don't know any NASA astronauts who have reportedly seen the blue marble. Of course this would never have even been a discussion for me prior to 2015, and so as we have discussed, there area far more factors involved than just "I don't trust NASA" going on here. That is actually quite low on my list of factors for reconsidering the reality of the nature of the earth that we live on. But even if I were to meet an astronaut, and listen to their first-hand testimony, I would be reluctant to automatically "believe" we live on a spinning ball just through that. Why? Because of my more intimate, lengthy relationship with the Creator, who has confirmed his vantage point to me through the Bible. That's going to be difficult for me to set aside, for an astronaut. Do you understand what I mean, brother?

There are SO many people in the world that I don't know personally but I'm able to trust their "testimonies." For instance, I don't know Billy Graham personally and I will never get the chance to know him, but I generally trust his expertise.

I'm having a very hard time understanding what you mean because I don't set the truth aside for my own personal biases. If one day, they find the bones of Jesus and can prove it, I will give up my faith in him. I'm not going to ignore evidence just to make myself feel better.

The implications I was speaking of is that I tend to take the Bible quite literally, and believe the stories as historically accurate and true, including the book of Genesis account of creation and cosmology. So if I'm using the Bible incorrectly in that manner, then I am surely to be one of the most pitied individuals on this earth. While I remain open to be corrected, through means of dear fellow saints that speak truth into my life, and ultimately God Himself continuing to reveal truth, for now, I must keep a clear conscience, even if that means maintaining a world view about cosmology that goes against what modern "science" teaches. The reason I put "science" in italics there, is because I still contend that showing images from space of a blue marble is not "science".

That actually is the definition of science but I can tell that we are going to have a very hard time going over anything scientific when that your understanding of it is so left field!

But of course I'm not using "science" as an argument for why I believe we live on a stationary, not-spherical earth. I'm taking God's word literally, and also using my first-hand, personal observations of never seeing the curve, when according to the math (the reported rate of curve is eight inches per mile squared), I should be able to observe it well before climbing 40,000 feet in an airplane. Yet all I see is the flat horizon rising to my eye level.

Then you are ignoring one of God's major sources of truth: nature. If you don't believe in nature revealing his truth, then God is a liar - plain and simple.

I 100% agree, and that is not my aim in life (or even this thread), at all. My aim is to know Christ Jesus, and to help others get to know Him, in spirit and truth. How do I do that? Through my own personal testimony and experience of knowing Him. I love Romans 1 (I probably mentioned this chapter earlier too), because the apostle Paul is quick to reference creation as one of the primary realities that prove God (Christ Jesus), and that no one has an excuse, since the beginning. I say that to intimate one reason I'm comfortable even talking about creation cosmology as much as I have been. It matters tremendously, because truth matters.

But don't you see? If you believe in a flat earth and you are talking to a non-believer (in Jesus) and they think your flat earth beliefs are "crazy" don't you think that hurts your testimony? St. Augustine said it best:

"If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?"

I am also absolutely capable of being deceived. I do not want to be deceived. I believe God's word is always faithful and true, and even though it was written in ancient times, by people whom I would not consider "scientists", I also do not believe the creator of the Universe would inspire them to write a story that says the "sun stood still", if it did not. Sorry, I just can't make that leap of faith right now.

Let me ask you this: do you believe that the bible was dictated to the writers by God? or was it inspired by Him?

[caleb4life]

That actually is the definition of science

Hey brother, when you said that, did you mean that "showing images of our blue marble from space" is the "definition of science"?

Because if so, then we are quite far apart on what actual "science" is.

Regarding setting aside truth for personal bias, like you, I do not want to do that. That is why it's so crucial for us to grow in knowing Christ Jesus, who IS TRUTH. If cosmological discussions can serve us both to that end (knowing Christ Jesus), then glory to God. If they only serve as a distraction from knowing Him, then I will hopefully learn through this experience to be much more careful with whom I broach this topic. The last thing I want to do is cause any one to stumble.

That said, I do not believe I'm:

ignoring a major source of truth: nature.

As I've often said, since my personal observations using my God-given senses corroborate what I believe He has revealed to me in the Scriptures, then I'm quite in-tuned with nature, again, from my limited vantage point (I will always grant you that). So let me reiterate, I do believe God has revealed through nature what His word teaches about cosmology, and so I believe he is not a liar.

But don't you see? If you believe in a flat earth and you are talking to a non-believer (in Jesus) and they think your flat earth beliefs are "crazy" don't you think that hurts your testimony?

Of course I have considered this many times. By God's grace, the claims of Jesus do not rest on my having accurate (or complete) understanding of cosmology. He was there in the beginning. He knows best. So, I am 100% confident (and peaceful), leaving it up to Him to reveal the truth about His creation to anyone He pleases, in His timing. I know so little about the true nature of his creation. I see through a mirror VERY dimly at this point. I'm ok with that.

When I'm talking with non-believers (in Jesus, or about the shape of the earth), my aim is never to win an argument or "convince" them of something they do not want to believe. My charge is to love them, as I love myself. I also desire to speak the truth in love, always pointing them to the author and perfecter of our faith, Christ Jesus.

I also readily admit that my recent cosmological paradigm shifts have come with large amounts of cognitive dissonance that I've had to deal with. But the same can be said of what I've gone through being born again! Old things passed away, and all things became new in my life. The consequences of that experience with Christ Jesus are indescribable, try though I might to articulate it.

As to your last question, I believe the authors of the Bible were inspired to write.....

What do you think?

[Nathan Smart]

Hey brother, when you said that, did you mean that "showing images of our blue marble from space" is the "definition of science"?

Because if so, then we are quite far apart on what actual "science" is.

Finding photos that prove certain kinds of evidence is definitely part of "science." It's used heavily in forensic science, for instance.

Regarding setting aside truth for personal bias, like you, I do not want to do that. That is why it's so crucial for us to grow in knowing Christ Jesus, who IS TRUTH. If cosmological discussions can serve us both to that end (knowing Christ Jesus), then glory to God. If they only serve as a distraction from knowing Him, then I will hopefully learn through this experience to be much more careful with whom I broach this topic. The last thing I want to do is cause any one to stumble.

I honestly wouldn't even bring up science with someone who I am witnessing to. If they ask me about evolution or something I will give my thoughts, but with the disclaimer that it doesn't affect your salvation to believe either way. That is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for young people these days. They show up in science class, see all the evidence for any given topic and then think, "If this is true, then what else did my pastor lie about?" That's the point that Augustine was getting at.

As I've often said, since my personal observations using my God-given senses corroborate what I believe He has revealed to me in the Scriptures, then I'm quite in-tuned with nature, again, from my limited vantage point (I will always grant you that). So let me reiterate, I do believe God has revealed through nature what His word teaches about cosmology, and so I believe he is not a liar.

I was thinking about this earlier. I know you think that all of the world's governments and all of the scientists and astronauts and everyone else working at NASA (save for a few security guards on YouTube) are lying about the shape of the earth. What about private companies like SpaceX or Blue Origin? Are they lying too? What do they have to gain from the lie? The amount of people you are implicating in this lie is astronomical (no pun intended). There would have to be at least ONE person who would give it all up and expose the lie. They do it all the time in all kinds of industries. Why would the space science world be the only place where no scientist has ever blown the whistle on this fake round earth?

As to your last question, I believe the authors of the Bible were inspired to write.....

If this is true, then there is a possibility that the authors would frame their inspiration through their own lenses. If God is dictating, then you're right - they wouldn't write something that would cause the world to stumble like this. But, since He didn't, then the world lens of the author is important to consider.

What do you think?

I think God allowed the authors of the bible to tell His story through their worldview. This takes care of any errors the authors might have included when talking about science and anything else our modern view has discovered to be true.

Here's a new line of questioning:

https://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2018/0...-would-happen/

With flat earth, a LOT of other stuff would not work the way it does today. The above article points out a few of them. The last section is interesting too as it speaks to the history of believe in a round earth.