What's up with Kyrie Irving and Flat Earth?

[caleb4life]

Dear brother Nathan,

That is a great question, and one that I have spent no small amount of time pondering, even before your question (I watched that video linked in the article too). In fact, it is one of the most unavoidably difficult realities that I have wrestled with throughout this cosmological revival experience. From my vantage point, there are only two options.

1. Professing Christian astronauts are lying on purpose. (since I do not personally know any Christian astronauts, I cannot answer the "why would they lie about the shape of the earth?"), with anything more than speculation, which I will refrain from here.
2. Or, God's Word, as it has been personally revealed to me through Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, is not true.

Both of those possibilities are tremendously unsettling and uncomfortable.

As of right now, without personally knowing anyone with a first-hand experience of seeing "the globe" (not through photos/videos), I withhold judgement about their motives.

That said, I remain unconvinced that Jeffrey Williams is telling the full truth. As a grace from God (that's how I view it anyway), with my limited personal observations to date, and my God-given senses, that align with my current understanding of Biblical cosmology, I am content to remain in tension on the matter. I do still believe that we live on a stationary plane, with the sun, moon and stars moving in the firmament (dome).

Regarding cosmology, I know so little still! But I'm ok with that. I'm learning. Like a child. People with tremendous worldly "credentials" on matters of astronomy and cosmology, who have all sorts of education, accolades and large followings, do not impress me, on their merits. For example, I have spent lots of time reading Answers in Genesis material (Dr. Faulkner), and have come away quite grieved in my spirit, at their take on this topic.

I will still listen to them, respectfully. I'm open to learning from them too. But when what they are speaking (teaching) flies in direct contradiction to the revealed word of God (in my own personal relationship with Christ Jesus), then all I can do is stand in my conviction with a clear conscience, and trust God by faith that in due time He will reveal the truth to me, as needed.

It's painfully humiliating, because I know on matters such as cosmology, to the majority of people out there that I have interacted with (even dear brothers and sisters), I sound like a lunatic, who is out of touch with reality.

Thanks for asking such good questions, brother! Love you, man!

P.S. If you have a few minutes, please check out the video linked below, and I am interested to hear your perspective (warning, its kind of boring). While I do not lean on media as "proof" of Biblical cosmology, in a definitive sense, I am absolutely fascinated by what I perceive to be honest efforts to discern truth, using the scientific method to prove reality. So, much like I do when viewing NASA material, I take in the information and continue pursuing truth.

https://youtu.be/iUeqU5VRs1o

P.S.S. And if you have even more free time, the "debate" linked below is absolutely fascinating, and was what I considered to be quite amiable on both sides. Some excellent back and forth, by what appear to be two honest gentleman. Again, I do not take this type of media to be "proof" one way or another regarding the shape of the earth, but the information shared is quite compelling, in support of my current understanding of Biblical cosmology.

https://youtu.be/1k7UyYdouxg

[Nathan Smart]

From my vantage point, there are only two options.

1. Professing Christian astronauts are lying on purpose. (since I do not personally know any Christian astronauts, I cannot answer the "why would they lie about the shape of the earth?"), with anything more than speculation, which I will refrain from here.
2. Or, God's Word, as it has been personally revealed to me through Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, is not true.

Is it also possible that:

3. You are reading the bible wrong?

I mean, we are not perfect. We get things wrong all the time. You think scientists get things wrong (and scientists would agree with you - just not on what they get wrong). So, isn't it possible that you aren't reading the bible correctly, or that you are misunderstanding it?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking, isn't it possible?

[The Light Within]

Well, well, well, why is Edmonton (my home city) making it into the headlines so much these days?

Canada’s first-ever Flat Earth conference: https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ng-in-edmonton

A man from Edmonton walks up to the microphone. He wants to know: why won’t the scientific community come clean about flat earth?

[caleb4life]

Is it also possible that:

3. You are reading the bible wrong?

Nathan, I really appreciate your candor in asking questions. Much respect brother. When you ask about "reading the Bible wrong?", do you mean "interpreting the Bible wrong?"? I assume so, but wanted to make sure. Because if you literally mean, "reading it wrong", I could only presume you are asking if I'm reading it for the wrong purpose, or if I'm reading it looking for things in it that are not there, or to teach me about things it's not intended to shine light on? But I trust you can help me out with what you mean with your question.

If you are asking "could I be interpreting or understanding the Bible wrongly", then my answer is absolutely, "YES"! You see, I was raised in a Christian household, and so I grew up with an intrinsic respect for God's word. I even went to a private Baptist Christian school through eighth grade, where the Bible was taught every day. I say that to highlight that for my entire life, up until a few years ago, I believe I was "reading the Bible wrong" about the cosmology it clearly describes. So for me to ever think that my reading (and interpretation) of the Bible is infallible, would be utterly arrogant.

[Nathan Smart]

Nathan, I really appreciate your candor in asking questions. Much respect brother. When you ask about "reading the Bible wrong?", do you mean "interpreting the Bible wrong?"? I assume so, but wanted to make sure. Because if you literally mean, "reading it wrong", I could only presume you are asking if I'm reading it for the wrong purpose, or if I'm reading it looking for things in it that are not there, or to teach me about things it's not intended to shine light on? But I trust you can help me out with what you mean with your question.

I mean one of two things:

1. You're reading it the wrong way - for instance, you are reading poetry as literal history, or metaphors as literal meanings, etc.

2. You're misunderstanding what the intent of the authors were.

If you are asking "could I be interpreting or understanding the Bible wrongly", then my answer is absolutely, "YES"! You see, I was raised in a Christian household, and so I grew up with an intrinsic respect for God's word. I even went to a private Baptist Christian school through eighth grade, where the Bible was taught every day. I say that to highlight that for my entire life, up until a few years ago, I believe I was "reading the Bible wrong" about the cosmology it clearly describes. So for me to ever think that my reading (and interpretation) of the Bible is infallible, would be utterly arrogant.

If that's true, then you need to include that when you say the only the two options is that the Christian astronaut is lying or the bible is lying.

And keep in mind, a proper respect for God's word includes reading the text the way you are supposed to read literature. You don't just read it as if these guys dictated straight from God's mouth. They were inspired by him to write these scriptures. That means, everything their culture thought about life was included in their interpretation of God's divine revealings. So, they didn't have all the knowledge we currently have when they wrote this stuff. So, when they talked about God creating the earth, they talked about it from their understanding of science and nature. It doesn't really matter HOW God created the earth; it's that he DID. And, that's what God was revealing to them when they wrote the words. He told them that HE created the earth and then they wrote that down with how they thought he would have done it. If the bible was written today (with no prior understanding of God) then it would have probably included all of the popular science of today OR it wouldn't include any of it because it's not relevant to belief in God. The bible isn't a science or history textbook. It's a religious text and that's how it needs to be read.

Now, if you want to believe the earth is flat based on the plain reading of the text, that's fine (it doesn't have any bearing on salvation), but I would highly encourage you to do some studying about the style of literature that scripture is written in. If you truly have a respect for God's word, you owe it to yourself.

[caleb4life]

you are reading poetry as literal history, or metaphors as literal meanings

I hear you brother. I've thought about that a lot.

For example, what do you make of this passage?

Joshua 10:13-15

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon;
And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.

Historic? Poetry? Metaphor? Literal?

Is there a way that we can know which literary style is being used here?

Does it matter?

Scientifically speaking, how would you explain this phenomenon in the heliocentric model?

[Nathan Smart]

I hear you brother. I've thought about that a lot.

For example, what do you make of this passage?

Joshua 10:13-15

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon;
And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.

Historic? Poetry? Metaphor? Literal?

Is there a way that we can know which literary style is being used here?

Does it matter?

I took a look around online and found a few interesting links about this. There are a few options here:

1. It didn't happen. There doesn't seem to be any archeological proof of the setting and it seems like the writer of the story didn't know his geography. It would have been pretty much impossible for it all to happen as it was written (based on the other accounts in the bible of the same story).

2. It did happen but the writer misunderstood some kind of scientific phenomenon as the sun "standing still."

3. It did happen but it was a local event and not a worldwide happening (meaning, it was a pure miracle from God that the light shone on the battlefield).

I personally don't have a definite opinion on what happened. I'm leaning towards it being a story pointing towards the power of God but not necessarily a literal event (but I could be swayed either way). I would say that if it did happen, I lean towards option 3 above.

Scientifically speaking, how would you explain this phenomenon in the heliocentric model?

Well, you can't explain miracles with science. That's the whole point of a miracle. If it could be explained with science then it wouldn't be a miracle, no?

[The Light Within]

I hear you brother. I've thought about that a lot.

For example, what do you make of this passage?

Joshua 10:13-15

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon;
And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.

Historic? Poetry? Metaphor? Literal?

Is there a way that we can know which literary style is being used here?

Does it matter?

Scientifically speaking, how would you explain this phenomenon in the heliocentric model?

God performed a stupendous miracle, causing the sun to delay its “setting.” God stopped the motion of the earth. There are objections to this explanation, based on the physics of motion, but the God who created the world and established natural laws is perfectly capable of compensating for any collateral complications. We may not have a scientific explanation of how God performed this miracle, but He did.

Something else to consider Caleb, is that Joshua described the miracle just as we might describe it, from an earth-bound perspective. From the perspective of someone standing on the earth, it does appear that the sun moves. We ourselves commonly speak of “sunrise” and “sunset”; it is the way we express ourselves.

And as Nathan pointed out, a miracle does not have to be scientifically proven—just accepted. Joshua prayed, and God supernaturally provided the light necessary for Joshua’s army to win its battle. The lengthened day was indeed unlike anything ever seen, but in Joshua’s mind the greater miracle may just have been that God listened to him and answered such an amazing prayer.

[faylor]

I took a look around online and found a few interesting links about this. There are a few options here:

1. It didn't happen. There doesn't seem to be any archeological proof of the setting and it seems like the writer of the story didn't know his geography. It would have been pretty much impossible for it all to happen as it was written (based on the other accounts in the bible of the same story).

2. It did happen but the writer misunderstood some kind of scientific phenomenon as the sun "standing still."

3. It did happen but it was a local event and not a worldwide happening (meaning, it was a pure miracle from God that the light shone on the battlefield).

I personally don't have a definite opinion on what happened. I'm leaning towards it being a story pointing towards the power of God but not necessarily a literal event (but I could be swayed either way). I would say that if it did happen, I lean towards option 3 above.



Well, you can't explain miracles with science. That's the whole point of a miracle. If it could be explained with science then it wouldn't be a miracle, no?

Welcome back to the conversation, Nathan. I know that you're done engaging with me on this issue but have been enjoying reading the exchange between you and Caleb.

[Nathan Smart]

Welcome back to the conversation, Nathan. I know that you're done engaging with me on this issue but have been enjoying reading the exchange between you and Caleb.

I'm not exactly "done" done. I just want to make sure that it's a fruitful conversation. There's a certain level of conspiracy that I just can't engage in and so I try to push the conversation as far as I can before we start talking about worldwide cabals and I have to leave and reset.

[caleb4life]

worldwide cabals

I hear you dear brother, and have too wrestled with that concept for years. It’s never proven spiritually fruitful whenever I spend time “going down the conspiratorial rabbit hole”, as it were. So while I have stumbled across some dark paths researching and seeking truth, my conscience does not allow me to dwell there to figure out the depths and ways of the evil ruler of this world.

Yet at the same time, I believe we are naive to think the god of this world is not actively lying and deceiving the masses, as has been his pattern since the garden of Eden.

For comparison sake, think of a large corporation. A vast majority of the employees have their clearly defined work they do everyday, with most of them not being party to the intimate meetings that go on in the CEO’s office.

Likewise, I believe a majority of the people in this world are sheep (myself included), who mostly go about our daily lives somewhat clueless to what’s taking place behind the worldwide scenes (we see through a mirror dimly).

Of course becoming a born again believer in Christ Jesus changes that (we have been saved by the Good Shepherd!), and as we begin walking in the Light, and grow in truth, our awareness of the spiritual realm and the battles therein (including lies and deception) are made manifest to us by the Holy Spirit.

Not so that we can “battle” against people, but so that we can continue speaking the truth in love, with compassion and mercy, hoping to snatch some from the fire (I’m thinking about the last few verses in Jude right now).

But like it only takes one CEO to change the course of a company, and the thousands of workers simply fall in line, so it is with the ruler of this world, as he continues leading as many humans to death and destruction as possible. You may be wondering how the shape of the earth fits into leading people to death and destruction? I know I have pondered that question! Or conversely, how does the shape of the earth matter in relation to the gospel?

My conclusion (thus far) as simple as it sounds, is because TRUTH MATTERS. Objective truth! Absolute truth!

Though we are undoubtedly living in very dark times, we continue to experience and receive the grace and mercy of Christ Jesus our Lord, because here we sit even now, still signing His praises in this little corner of cyberspace. Amazing Grace!!

Oh yes, I also wanted to comment on this:

If it could be explained with science then it wouldn’t be a miracle, no?

Love it! Amen!

The crux of this matter for me, specifically with that story, is “what was the miracle?”.

While it’s awesomely mysterious that God hears any of our prayers, I do not agree with Light about that being the primary miracle in this story (but I know what you mean there bro!).

No, I believe the miracle was that the sun and moon stood still for a whole day, like it says. The story is quite clear what happened, and for it to be recorded in the Bible, I believe it’s 100% truth. Surely for the author to describe the “lights” as the sun and moon means that’s what it was. There is no mention of the earth standing still, so people now only infer that “must” be what happened too, because of the false heliocentric cosmology.

While I agree that God’s omnipotent power can accomplish “anything he pleases”, that alone does not require me to do mental gymnastics to understand how the miracle of the story in Joshua happened in reality.

Of course, this story is by no means definitive “flat earth proof”, per se....especially scientifically. It’s just been very exciting to re-read the account knowing true cosmology, and being able to understand it a little bit better, that’s all.

Much love to you all! I hope to address some other points too, when time permits. Thanks for the edifying convo!

[faylor]

I'm not exactly "done" done. I just want to make sure that it's a fruitful conversation. There's a certain level of conspiracy that I just can't engage in and so I try to push the conversation as far as I can before we start talking about worldwide cabals and I have to leave and reset.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No.’ Whatever is more than these is of the evil one. (Matthew 5:37)

In light of Mat 5:37, would you have said any of the following statements differently, or did I simply misinterpret you as meaning to say you wanted to take a pause for 8 months but were interested in hearing me respond?

I'm not interested in having a "debate" using rules from the Argumentation 101 class I took in college.
PEACE

The truth is, it doesn't matter if the earth is flat or round. All that matters is if Jesus came down off that cross and rose again. I believe that and obviously you believe that too, so it looks like we're brothers and we can move along!

Do you understand how impossible this "debate" is?....it's useless for you to try to convince me or anyone else really.

[Nathan Smart]

But like it only takes one CEO to change the course of a company, and the thousands of workers simply fall in line, so it is with the ruler of this world, as he continues leading as many humans to death and destruction as possible. You may be wondering how the shape of the earth fits into leading people to death and destruction? I know I have pondered that question! Or conversely, how does the shape of the earth matter in relation to the gospel?

I understand this concept but the implication is that all of the Christians in the "company" of the US government (and the rest of the world too) are going along with all of it even though they would have the kind of access to the behind-the-scenes stuff that would show if NASA is lying. If there were no born again Christians in these positions then I would not use this argument. I do NOT believe that a Christian astronaut (scientist) would decide to lie and hide the truth about the shape of the earth if they knew the truth. For one, that's not how Christians are taught to act, and secondly, that's not how scientists learn to do science!

If any of these Christian astronauts who have been to space come out and say, it's a lie, we haven't been to space, we haven't seen a round earth, etc., then I will be more inclined to come to your side. Until that happens, I will not be able to believe in the "miracle" of a flat earth. I say "miracle" because scientifically it doesn't shake out. If the earth is flat, then it's a miracle plain and simple because it would defy all of our natural explanations!

In light of Mat 5:37, would you have said any of the following statements differently, or did I simply misinterpret you as meaning to say you wanted to take a pause for 8 months but were interested in hearing me respond?

Okay - now I remember why I wasn't interested in debating you. I appreciate Caleb's approach and though I wish he would move a little on his positions when presented with evidence that conflicts with his views (don't we all wish this about the people we are in disagreement with!), I definitely like that he doesn't call me "evil" during our debates.

[caleb4life]

I definitely like that he doesn’t call me evil during our debates

Love you (and Faylor) so much!

I’ll point out what may be obvious, which is that you, Nathan, are NOT accusing Faylor of calling you evil. Which is cool, because I know none of us want to be party to accusing each other.

[faylor]

Okay - now I remember why I wasn't interested in debating you...

It was buried a few pages back, but here's what you said after I started pointing out the logical fallacies in your reasoning:

I'm not interested in having a "debate" using rules from the Argumentation 101 class I took in college...

Anyway, have fun engaging with Caleb.

[caleb4life]

Okay - now I remember why I wasn't interested in debating you.

Reading this made my heart sink, because in my opinion, Faylor was respectful, patient, and posted with sound logic and reasoning, with what I perceive to be sincerity (as I have also perceived with you, dear Nathan).

Anyway, you wrote something else that caught my attention:

when presented with evidence that conflicts with his views

I do not recall being presented with any evidence (especially scientific or Biblical) that conflicts with my current view that we live on a stationary, non-spherical, dome (firmament) covered earth. What do you consider "evidence" brother?

Regarding born again Christians who currently work at NASA specifically (none of whom I have personally met yet), I would like to submit the possibility that an extremely sincere born again Christian could be working there, and not aware of the deception. Do you agree that's possible? The reason I italicized currently, is because there are testimonies of born again Christians who are former NASA employees, who have come forward to testify to the deception (as they have come to know the truth now). But among those, I also do not consider it "proof", because a persons belief should never be construed as scientific evidence.

That's why I've been encouraged by being able to make repeated personal observations when I'm in an airplane, as the flat horizon always rises to eye level, among other little first-hand observations I've made.

Anyway, I remain blessed to have this convo with you dear brothers!

[Nathan Smart]

It was buried a few pages back, but here's what you said after I started pointing out the logical fallacies in your reasoning:

Yeah, I remember that. You are more interested in "winning" a debate than you are with actually discussing the evidence for something. I pointed out that you have no evidence for your claims that the world is perpetuating a conspiracy about the shape of the earth and you wanted to talk about why it didn't matter because if your claims are true then we won't have sufficient evidence to prove them because they will be covered up.

Don't you see how that's an impossible conversation to have? You make a claim, I say "prove it," and you say it can't be proven based on the nature of the claim itself. This is why I'm not interested in having this argument with you. Caleb is trying to provide evidence for his claims (and when he doesn't have it, he says, "That's a good question. I don't know for sure, but here's what I think"). I'm more interested in that kind of conversation.

[Nathan Smart]

Reading this made my heart sink, because in my opinion, Faylor was respectful, patient, and posted with sound logic and reasoning, with what I perceive to be sincerity (as I have also perceived with you, dear Nathan).

He quoted scripture implying that I was doing something evil. You may not think that's disrespectful but at the least it's a pretty big misuse of scripture to make me look bad.

I think that since you agree with his ideas of a worldwide conspiracy that you are mistaking his "logic" as being sound. If you make a huge claim, you have to back it up with evidence. You can't just say, "Well, if my claim is right then there would be no evidence for it." Even if that is true (and there's no way to prove it is), you can't expect anyone to just disregard all natural evidence and go along with it!

I do not recall being presented with any evidence (especially scientific or Biblical) that conflicts with my current view that we live on a stationary, non-spherical, dome (firmament) covered earth. What do you consider "evidence" brother?

I consider natural observation to be evidence. I consider scientific research to be evidence. I consider the personal testimony of people (both Christian and non-, but especially Christian in this case) to be evidence. So, the burden of proof is on you to provide trustworthy and testable (and repeateable) evidence that clearly contradicts the evidence I just mentioned.

Regarding born again Christians who currently work at NASA specifically (none of whom I have personally met yet), I would like to submit the possibility that an extremely sincere born again Christian could be working there, and not aware of the deception. Do you agree that's possible? The reason I italicized currently, is because there are testimonies of born again Christians who are former NASA employees, who have come forward to testify to the deception (as they have come to know the truth now). But among those, I also do not consider it "proof", because a persons belief should never be construed as scientific evidence.

Can you show me who these ex-NASA employees are? I found one: Tracey Moran - a person who worked in security. She doesn't give any evidence for her claims except that everything "seemed" kind of shady and that she has always been a conspiracy person (which means she already had pre-concieved notions and then looked for anything that confirmed her bias - even though she didn't find anything). Her stated reason for why she believes in flat earth is because she reads the bible literally. That is not evidence of anything. Do you have any examples of former employees that do have evidence beyond suspicion? And, more than just a security guard? I mean someone who is a scientist or astronaut?

I agree that it is possible that some data entry clerk at NASA doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes. But, I'm talking about Chrisitan astronauts. For instance, this guy: https://www.christianconcern.com/our...s-faith-in-god - I'm sure I've mentioned him before, but why would he lie?

That's why I've been encouraged by being able to make repeated personal observations when I'm in an airplane, as the flat horizon always rises to eye level, among other little first-hand observations I've made.

So, just so I can get an understanding of what kind of evidence you would believe - what is an example of evidence that would prove to you the earth is NOT flat? I think I asked this before, but it's been some time and I'd like to hear your current answer. If there is a certain kind of evidence, I want to know so I can see if I can find it.

[faylor]

Yeah, I remember that. You are more interested in "winning" a debate than you are with actually discussing the evidence for something. I pointed out that you have no evidence for your claims that the world is perpetuating a conspiracy about the shape of the earth and you wanted to talk about why it didn't matter because if your claims are true then we won't have sufficient evidence to prove them because they will be covered up.

Don't you see how that's an impossible conversation to have? You make a claim, I say "prove it," and you say it can't be proven based on the nature of the claim itself. This is why I'm not interested in having this argument with you. Caleb is trying to provide evidence for his claims (and when he doesn't have it, he says, "That's a good question. I don't know for sure, but here's what I think"). I'm more interested in that kind of conversation.

Two brothers are separated at birth, one grows up in Brazil playing futbol, the other grows up in the states playing football. One day they meet for a futbol match. They start playing, and although the ball was rounder than he expected, the american brother was eager to play.

After being dragged to the ground for the 3rd time, the Brazilian picked up the ball and stopped to explain the rules of futbol. As he was saying "whoever scores the most points wins" the American finished his sentence. ..."and since you have the ball you should try to score a touchdown and stop wasting everyone's time."

The Brazilian insisted "I'm happy to, but before I do there are more rules. You can sometimes take the ball by tackling, but slide tackling is..." but before the Brazilian was able to explain the rest of the rules, the American cut in and said "It's impossible to play with you when you stand there holding the ball. What's the point of playing with someone who refuses to even try to advance the ball down the field?"

When the Brazilian tried one last time to explain the rules of futbol so that they could get back to playing, the American stormed off, putting words in his brother's mouth that were never said, and complained that his brother had no desire to play football.

He was not wrong.

[Tarii_2sweet]

I'm amazed at how people can find things to disagree to get our minds off what's really going on in the earth. People must really have a great deal ofprivilege to find something to debate about nonsense.