What's up with Kyrie Irving and Flat Earth?

[Nathan Smart]

Out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would prove to you, without a shadow of a doubt, that the earth isn't flat, and is a sphere (or in your case, that it does revolve around the sun)?

[The Light Within]

When I first stumbled across flat earth, I could hardly believe it. But almost immediately, as I began studying the Bible afresh, I quickly realized how it corroborates a geocentric, stationary plane. For a while I was like "how could I have never seen this before?!?". But it does go to show how powerful the propaganda and lies are, from our infancy.

If us being told the earth is round is propaganda, than what else may be propaganda that we don't know. If there's such a huge conspiracy regarding space, the stars, our earth, etc., then what other conspiracies might there be? Could we actually be living as humans, is the Bible really true, is our existence really how we perceive it to be, where did we really come from. You see Caleb, this really isn't that simple if you choose to believe the earth is flat and NASA has lied to us all along. What a mess this really turns out to be if indeed the Bible teaches a flat Earth and all of NASA and any government agency can't be trusted 100%. Sure there are cover ups and nonsense all around us with lots of info to filter through. But a cover up this big that essentially the whole world is believing? Really?

[Caleb]

Hi dear Nathan!

Thank you for chiming in with that provacative question!

For starters, I would have to be convinced that the Bible clearly teaches that we live on a sphere/ball/globe that not only spins on its axis at 1,000 mph at the equator, but that we are also orbiting at 66,000 mph around the sun, all the while our solar system is orbiting through the galaxy at about 515,000 mph. That's a lot of movement all at once, and we feel none of it! Furthermore, the Scriptures say in various passages that the world (earth) is fixed firmly and shall not move.

Conversely, the Scriptures make references to heavenly bodies moving i.e. like the sun (rising/setting) and stars falling (in Revelation).

So far, after stumbling onto geocentric Cosmology a few years ago, and re-reading many passages of Scripture, I simply don't see any hint of God creating the heliocentric model that developed in earnest since Copernicus (whom even both Luther and Calvin considered utterly foolish for going against God's word with heliocentric theories).

To be convinced the earth is as I was taught growing up, in addition to seeing it clearly supported in the Word, I would expect to observe curvature with my own eyes (not just an image on a screen, or a photo), commiserate with the stated size of the globe.

So far, I've only been as high as an airplane, and like I may have mentioned before, the horizon always rises to my eye level throughout the entire flight, and as far as I can see, the horizon remains flat.

But you know, for 40 years of my life, I believed we lived on a spinning globe that orbits the sun, and never questioned it. Why? Because my teachers told me so, NASA proved it with videos, and images, and everyone else I knew believed it, with constant reenforcement (via tv, movies, music, magazines, books, clothes, education systems, language, news, even pastors).

Such is the power of media and education systems.

But in 2015, I came across one YouTube video, and after watching it, went straight to the Bible (and much prayer), and now 2 years later after hundreds of hours of reading, watching videos, observing, and conversations, I can't imagine believing we live on a spinning ball ever again.

Even so, I'm well aware I can't prove it to anyone. Like I can't prove Jesus is real aside from my own personal testimony of knowing Him. Each person must arrive at their own convictions about reality and truth.

I sure do appreciate you brothers! Thank you again for taking time to post in this thread!

wow, it's late! I hope my post articulates my thoughts in an understandable way! I can always edit later I suppose.

Light, I may have to reply to your post more directly later after I think about it more! Bless you bro!

Goodnight!

With Sincere Love,
Caleb

[Nathan Smart]

Hi dear Nathan!

Thank you for chiming in with that provacative question!

For starters, I would have to be convinced that the Bible clearly teaches that we live on a sphere/ball/globe that not only spins on its axis at 1,000 mph at the equator, but that we are also orbiting at 66,000 mph around the sun, all the while our solar system is orbiting through the galaxy at about 515,000 mph. That's a lot of movement all at once, and we feel none of it! Furthermore, the Scriptures say in various passages that the world (earth) is fixed firmly and shall not move.

Conversely, the Scriptures make references to heavenly bodies moving i.e. like the sun (rising/setting) and stars falling (in Revelation).

Two more questions:

1. Do you think that there is anything in this world - any topic or issue- that the Bible doesn't address and if so, how do we deal with those issues?

2. Do you believe that God reveals himself and truth in nature? In other words, if we observe something in nature, is that God revealing it to us? Or, is the Bible our only source of revelation?

[LUPE]

Out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would prove to you, without a shadow of a doubt, that the earth isn't flat, and is a sphere (or in your case, that it does revolve around the sun)?

For starters the existence of the Van Allen Radiation Belt, geosynchronous satellites orbiting the Earth, plate tectonics, Earth's magnetic field, volcanoes, Earthquakes.

If the Earth is indeed flat then that means it has to weigh less than a sphere would. Also, a flat Earth wouldn't have a core and therefore the force of gravity wouldn't be the same as a spherical Earth...We'd also not see evidence of centrifugal force acting of the Earth's surface absent a core. We'd also see evidence of more meteor strikes on the Earth's surface because a flat Earth would provide more surface area for meteors to strike as they enter the Earth's atmosphere.

Also, Sir Arthur Eddington's experiment in 1919 proving Einstein's General Theory Of Relativity wouldn't have been possible under of flat Earth model since he had to be positioned at a specific location on Earth for his experiment to work. I believe it had to do with the angle of observing a solar eclipse that occurred at that time.

[Nathan Smart]

For starters the existence of the Van Allen Radiation Belt, geosynchronous satellites orbiting the Earth, plate tectonics, Earth's magnetic field, volcanoes, Earthquakes.

If the Earth is indeed flat then that means it has to weigh less than a sphere would. Also, a flat Earth wouldn't have a core and therefore the force of gravity wouldn't be the same as a spherical Earth. We'd also see evidence of more meteor strikes on the Earth's surface because a flat Earth would provide more surface area for meteors to strike as they enter the Earth's atmosphere.

Also, Sir Arthur Eddington's experiment in 1919 proving Einstein's General Theory Of Relativity wouldn't have been possible under of flat Earth model since he had to be positioned at a specific location on Earth for his experiment to work. I believe it had to do with the angle of observing a solar eclipse that occurred at that time.

But in the case of Caleb, he doesn't believe those sources as reliable though, right? Which begs the question: how deep is this conspiracy? Is everyone involved? Are the astronauts who have space walked part of the conspiracy to trick us into believing a spherical earth? Are any of those astronauts born again Christians and are they also part of the lie? What would THEY have to gain from this?

[LUPE]

But in the case of Caleb, he doesn't believe those sources as reliable though, right? Which begs the question: how deep is this conspiracy? Is everyone involved? Are the astronauts who have space walked part of the conspiracy to trick us into believing a spherical earth? Are any of those astronauts born again Christians and are they also part of the lie? What would THEY have to gain from this?

If caleb believes the Earth is flat he has to prove scientifically how that is possible. Where is the evidence? I don't mean religious interpretation of sacred Biblical texts. I'm talking about disproving empirical scientific evidence with incontrovertible evidence. This question isn't a metaphysical one it's a scientific question.

[The Light Within]

But in 2015, I came across one YouTube video, and after watching it, went straight to the Bible (and much prayer), and now 2 years later after hundreds of hours of reading, watching videos, observing, and conversations, I can't imagine believing we live on a spinning ball ever again.

Light, I may have to reply to your post more directly later after I think about it more! Bless you bro!

Caleb, what you are presenting is a huge issue because the answer helps to shape our belief system and worldview, both of which have eternal consequences. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that the Earth is at the center of the universe. For many centuries, however, people believed that Claudius Ptolemaeus and others were correct when they advocated an Earth-centered universe. They wanted to believe this theory because some thought, incorrectly, that this is what the Bible teaches.

Taken in order, Genesis 1:14-18, Psalm 104:5, Job 26:7 and Isaiah 40:22 (which you have attached) were often cited to support the geocentric theory of Ptolemaeus. Yet none of these Scriptures, taken in any order whatsoever, state that God designed the universe with Earth at its center. In fact, Earth isn’t even the center of its own small solar system; the sun is. We can understand why Copernicus and, later, Galileo, who posited the sun-centered (heliocentric) theory, caused such a controversy in the church. It was thought that heliocentricism contradicted the biblical teaching of geocentrism. But, again, the problem was that God’s Word doesn’t say that the Earth is at the center of anything. Sadly, as time went on and people came to understand that the Earth did in fact revolve around the Sun, many simply lost faith in God’s Word, because they had falsely been taught geocentrism (what you are advocating here).

We must remember that Scripture, not science, is the ultimate test of all truth. How ironic that science has never disproved one word of the Bible, yet many people cite “science” as their reason to walk away from God. The ever-changing theories of fallible man come and go. Not so with the Word of God, however, as it endures forever. Any time there is a seemingly irreconcilable difference between the two, the Bible is where we need to place our faith.

[Nathan Smart]

I keep thinking of questions!! Sorry!

1. What about all the other planets we have seen. Every single planet (and our moon) is round and spherical. Why would the Earth be the only one that is flat?
2. Do you believe in the laws of gravity? If so, how could the earth keep the sun in rotation when the sun is heavier and would produce more gravity?
3. What do you think about solar/lunar eclipses?

[Caleb]

Wow, ya'll! Thank you so much for all the responses/questions! I only have a couple minutes left on my lunch break, and have not had time in the evenings to reply the last few days, but wanted to hop on to let you know I'm extremely appreciative of the ongoing conversation, and all of your candor.

With that said, I hope to reply to your questions the best I can when I have the time to write thoughtful replies. But by no means am I a scientist either (with you there LUPE), and certainly do not have all the answers. *edit* I wanted to quickly add that at a most basic level, we are all "scientists" to the degree that we engage in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge that describes and predicts the natural world (Wiki definition). But I knew what you meant, LUPE, we are not paid for it (professionals)! LOL!

No matter what answers I have (based on my limited research and personal observations), each person will simply have to arrive at their own conclusions in their journey to seek truth. There is SO MUCH good information in the world on this topic nowadays, but also a tremendous amount of garbage too (IMO). May the Holy Spirit be all of our guide as we test all things!

More later....love ya'll! Thanks again!

[Caleb]

But a cover up this big that essentially the whole world is believing? Really?

Dear brother Light. I completely understand how hard it is to imagine a cover up this big, but just bear with me for a moment. We all grew up being taught that we live on a spinning ball that orbits the sun. No question. Established fact. Globe propaganda literally everywhere. Literally everyone in the world has this worldview (ok, I'm grossly generalizing "everyone", but you get my point).

So as people grow up and go into a myriad of educational institutions, industries and jobs, even government jobs, military or NASA, NO ONE is going in thinking "there is a huge conspiracy to cover up the shape of the earth and it's relation to the sun, moon and stars". It's just not on ANYONES mind. My point in saying all that, is that it is conceivably VERY easy to keep billions of people "in the dark" about a matter such as this, even if you were say, a professing Christian working at NASA (of which I'm sure there are many).

Humans are all sheep man, by nature! We believe in a reality that we are taught. You, me, every human being! Never mind the fact that we don't "feel" any movement under our feet whatsoever. Never mind the dozens of Scripture passages that talk about the world being immovable and firmly established. Never mind the Scriptures that talk about the firmament (dome) that separated the waters above from the waters below. Never mind the fact that sun stood still (what would that do to earth's orbit ?!?) for Joshua and the Israelites, enabling them to win a battle.

For decades we have watched TV and movies, listened to radio, music, read books, and in recent years now watch youtube, and take ALL the "space" propaganda as absolute truth, because "THEY", the "ALMIGHTY SCIENTIST" say it's true.

As for Christian astronauts, the more I've dug into the history of NASA, I am not at a place right now where I'm ready to base my whole worldview on the veracity of their testimony about the shape of the earth and it's relation to the sun. Sorry, just not there right now. But again, I've been on this for 2 years now (I know I'm being somewhat redundant on this point), read countless books, even by some old dead saints (ever heard of David Wardlaw Scott? I sure hadn't!), and the more I learn, the more questions I have! But it's exciting at the same time, because my awe and reverence for God's word and masterful creation only grows with each layer of the proverbial onion that is peeled back!

At least where I am at right now, I truly believe the anti-christ(s) have been scheming to "hide God", as if they can, for a LOOOOOONNNNGGGG time (i.e. evolution, humanism, relativism), and this revival of geocentrism, flat earth, whatever you want to call it, is just another installment of exposing their lies.

Perhaps you've heard the saying:

"it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled"

Lord knows! I'm a student, with MUCH to learn still.

Which is why I'm so appreciative of all the feedback my simple inquiry to start this thread has received! Thank you for challenging me brother!

[Caleb]

Thanks for this post, brother Nathan!

Two more questions:

1. Do you think that there is anything in this world - any topic or issue- that the Bible doesn't address and if so, how do we deal with those issues?

2. Do you believe that God reveals himself and truth in nature? In other words, if we observe something in nature, is that God revealing it to us? Or, is the Bible our only source of revelation?

1. Yes! Who knows, perhaps billions of topics and issues! I would contend that with each passing day, there are probably new ones in fact (God loves to create, after all!)! With that said, I also believe the Bible teaches us principles that enable us to deal with ANY issue "under the sun" (hah!)! What do you think, brother?

2. I absolutely believe that God reveals Himself and truth in nature, and Romans 1:20 comes to mind as a beautiful exposition of that! Because what Paul talks about there pre-dates the (written) Bible! At the same time, I believe that what God reveals of Himself in truth and nature should not contradict anything in the written Word that we are blessed to still have free access to today. What do you think, brother?

[Caleb]

I appreciate you joining this discussion LUPE!

Where is the evidence? I don't mean religious interpretation of sacred Biblical texts. I'm talking about disproving empirical scientific evidence with incontrovertible evidence. This question isn't a metaphysical one it's a scientific question.

I hear you on this. For now, the only empirical evidence I have thus far is as follows:

- I cannot feel or observe any orbital motion whatsoever on this stationary, fixed, immovable earth that God created.
- I have never been able to see even the slightest curve of the theoretical globe earth with my own eyes. How high does one have to go to "see the curve" with their own eyes, based on the size of the globe? Is 30,000 feet high enough? How about 40,000 feet? 120,000 feet? If you have to go so high to see a curve from the air, how comes ships "disappear" over the horizon, or do they? Search youtube for flat earth, ships, horizon...some fascinating experiments have been captured using high power zoom lens cameras. To be fair, I am not comfortable using other people's material as "proof" of "flatness", any more than being uncomfortable with NASA's proof of a globe.
- I have observed both the sun and the moon being in the sky together during the daytime, with a portion of the moon being covered. How could this happen, if the earth is supposed to be what causes the shadow on the moon, and yet the earth is clearly "below" both the full sun and the moon?
- Flying in an airplane up to 40,000 feet and observing a flat horizon as far as I can see, with the horizon always rising to my eye level, which I believe is only possible on a flat plane surface (earth).

But again, I'm obviously not a professional Scientist, so these are just one simple guy's observations as he processes things and questions the reality I've been taught.

[LUPE]

I appreciate you joining this discussion LUPE!



I hear you on this. For now, the only empirical evidence I have thus far is as follows:

- I cannot feel or observe any orbital motion whatsoever on this stationary, fixed, immovable earth that God created.
- I have never been able to see even the slightest curve of the theoretical globe earth with my own eyes. How high does one have to go to "see the curve" with their own eyes, based on the size of the globe? Is 30,000 feet high enough? How about 40,000 feet? 120,000 feet? If you have to go so high to see a curve from the air, how comes ships "disappear" over the horizon, or do they? Search youtube for flat earth, ships, horizon...some fascinating experiments have been captured using high power zoom lens cameras. To be fair, I am not comfortable using other people's material as "proof" of "flatness", any more than being uncomfortable with NASA's proof of a globe.
- I have observed both the sun and the moon being in the sky together during the daytime, with a portion of the moon being covered. How could this happen, if the earth is supposed to be what causes the shadow on the moon, and yet the earth is clearly "below" both the full sun and the moon?
- Flying in an airplane up to 40,000 feet and observing a flat horizon as far as I can see, with the horizon always rising to my eye level, which I believe is only possible on a flat plane surface (earth).

But again, I'm obviously not a professional Scientist, so these are just one simple guy's observations as he processes things and questions the reality I've been taught.

I'm not a scientist either. I can see why you would be interested in this topic to the point of coming down on the Flat Earth model. Being non-scientists we really have to take all the evidence presented on both sides and try to make judgements about its veracity as best we can. I do think the scientific method has to prevail convincingly on whatever model people choose to embrace. I can't speak to your own observations with any authority to confirm or disprove what you've observed though.

This topic piqued my interest when I first saw your thread. I've seen YouTube videos that make very good points covering both positions. I gotta be honest the heliocentric system and spherical Earth model is very elegant and persuasive and logical. I've seen a few videos rebuffing the flat Earth model rather convincingly.
I think it is important to point out that there is such a thing as pseudo-science and that it is distinctive from science and that understanding the difference between the two is germane. Obviously, flat Earth proponents will allege that their detractors are employing pseudo-science and vice versa.

Here is a video that I found very interesting. This is part 1 in a series of videos.

[LUPE]

Here goes part 2.

[Caleb]

Thank you LUPE! I think I’ve seen the first video before, but will try and check both of them out today! Like Faylor eluded to a while back and you also expressed, it’s important to look at many perspectives on a matter in our quest for truth!

In fact, a dear brother who recently wrote “The Doctrine of the Shape of the Earth”, Nathan Roberts, told me about a Flat Earth rebuttal website www.flatearthdeception.com. The author, David Nikao, from what I can discern thus far, is also skeptical of NASA, and open to a geocentric sphere earth, while still being quite adamant against flat earth. It’s fascinating to me how there are growing numbers of people voicing distrust of NASA, but also having a hard time with consensus on what the true nature of this earth and the heavens above are.

Gotta run now....but speaking of NASA skepticism, I’m thinking about the purported sphericity of planets as “proof” that the earth must also be a ball (thanks for bringing that up Nathan!). For starters, and I know this aspect of my belief system is not scientific, but I can’t even find a mention of planets in the Bible! Just earth, sun, moon and stars (albeit stars that move). Of course I no longer trust NASA’s imagery of planets as proof.

Later guys! Have a great Saturday! Bless you all!

[The Light Within]

but speaking of NASA skepticism, I’m thinking about the purported sphericity of planets as “proof” that the earth must also be a ball (thanks for bringing that up Nathan!). For starters, and I know this aspect of my belief system is not scientific, but I can’t even find a mention of planets in the Bible! Just earth, sun, moon and stars (albeit stars that move). Of course I no longer trust NASA’s imagery of planets as proof.

So even planets aren't real now? What a world we live in. Everyone has their own opinions and these opinions are being taught as truth. I'm willing to accept the earth is flat (or even triangular for that matter), but it seems that as the years pass and technology increases these opinions are becoming more and more widespread. If we are now being told to question the shape of the earth and deny all the evidence NASA is putting forth, would it be too far fetched to say the Bible is a huge conspiracy as well? I mean since so many ideas and opinions are being pushed as truth, what is truth......what is truth?

[The Light Within]

One of the best documented methods for determining the Earth's roundness was first performed by the ancient Greeks. This was achieved by comparing the shadows of sticks in different locations. When the sun was directly overhead in one place, the stick there cast no shadow. At the same time in a city around 700 kilometers north, the stick there did cast a shadow. If the Earth were flat then both sticks should show the same shadow (or lack of) because they would be positioned at the same angle towards the sun. The ancient Greeks found the shadows were different because the Earth was curved and so the sticks were at different angles. They then used the difference in these angles to calculate the circumference of the Earth. They managed to get it to within 10% of the true value – not bad for around 250 B.C, eh Caleb?

Another piece of evidence for a globe is the difference between the night skies in the northern and southern hemispheres. The view is completely different because the Earth beneath you is pointing in a different direction. If the Earth were flat, the view should be the same. This can be made even easier by simply comparing when it is night and day in each country. You can observe the planets as well. They all rotate, and watching over the course of a few days gives a clear picture they are spherical rather than flat. The chance that most of the planets are spherical but the Earth is flat seems very unlikely.

[Nathan Smart]

What does NASA (or whoever is behind these vast coverups) have to gain from this lie? What does the world believing in a round earth give them that a flat earth would be a disadvantage to their cause?

I'm all for believing that the people in the government tell a lot of lies to get what they want but the easiest way to figure out if someone is lying is to see what they would have to gain from the lie. How does anyone benefit from a round earth lie?

[Caleb]

Important questions, Light!

...would it be too far fetched to say the Bible is a big conspiracy as well? I mean since so many ideas and opinions are being pushed as truth, what is truth......what is truth?

I have been wrestling with questions like that myself! Recently, I came across a simple definition of truth that I liked a lot. It goes right along with Jesus’ claim “I am the way, the truth and the life...”. All truth belongs to and is authored by our Creator.

Truth = Everything from God’s perspective.

I hope to tackle more questions later...

Peace!