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  1. #161
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry1914 View Post
    Understandable brethren.

    Let me hit you with this - if it's based on appearance, would it be okay at a gathering of believers who all held the same understanding of alcohol (not sinful, but only drunkenness is sinful, Psalm 104, etc...etc...) ?
    No argument from me here(if the gathering is in a basement LOL, j/k)
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  2. #162
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    AMEN NEB!!!!

    Unregenerate men that don't have the Holy Spirit living inside of them to distinguish themselves as holy, will create there our system to appear holy and pious for the sake of there conscience or for the sake of other men.

    Then even regenerate men that have a misunderstanding of God's righteousness create laws unto themselves, and do not live holy before the lord, rather holy before themselves, or holy before other men.

    1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
    5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

    6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
    ..........
    19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

    1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

  3. #163
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."

    Why should a non-believer listen to anything you have to say if you just create the rules as you go and disregard what God has said?

    "hey sir, I want you to believe God's Word...follow Him....uhhh...except this alcohol part because we clearly have story after story that proves that alcohol is bad."

    ____

    This is why i jumped on this thread. I'm not merely interested in defending my right to pop the top. There are more fundamental...more important issues here...issues that affect all other topics as well.

    Like:

    1. Ultimate Authority - some have revealed that their ultimate authority is not God, but experiences, stats, and other things.

    2. Logic - some have revealed either an outright denial or severe lack of understanding in basic valid reasoning (logic).

    3. Empiricism - some have revealed a strong adherence to the idea that knowledge comes through experience. That universals are determined by scientific fact and polls.

    All three of these, i believe, are intermingled. And it is these types of things that create problems in other areas, such as holiness, salvation, eschatology...you name it.

    ______

    So again. NO, it would be a HORRIBLE witness because of what such arguments imply on a foundational level.
    Your argument is actually unbiblical. Read Romans 14. If a weaker Christian thinks they are honoring God by avoiding something, then they are. That being said, they should not say alcohol is a sin because that is also unbiblical. Remember Cyple's Question was "if we prohibit drinking as Christians" not "Christians calling alcohol a sin"

    Originally Posted by Cyple
    I have a question. If we prohibit drinking as Christians, is this a good witness to non-believers? Imagine you're witnessing to someone who drinks responsibly.
    I will explain the biblical position on Alcohol when somebody ask me why I don't drink. I explain to them alcohol is not a sin, getting drunk is a sin so I choose to avoid the possibility of getting drunk. It's responsibility. Kind of like not being alone with a girl when her parents are not home to avoid the possibility of sex.
    Last edited by WhyMe; 06-25-2007 at 11:28 AM.
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    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    Your argument is actually unbiblical. Read Romans 14. If a weaker Christian thinks they are honoring God by avoiding something, then they are. That being said, they should not say alcohol is a sin because that is also unbiblical. Remember Cyple's Question was "if we prohibit drinking as Christians" not "Christians calling alcohol a sin"
    but thats not what we are saying.... clearly many christians are saying "drinking is a sin".

    just like the converts whom the letter of hebrews or galatians was written to.

    if drinking is going to cause my brother to fall into the sin of drunkeness... fine, I wont drink. If drinking is going to cause my brother to think I am a sinner? Come on now. Do yuo listen to HHH? That might cause some folks to think you believe secular hip hop is good.

    If listening to HHH in front of a new convert will kick him back to tuning to Hot 97.... i wont listen in front of him. If listening to HHH will cause a pharisee in the church who doesnt understand the law to think I am a sinner. Please!

    I still wont bump it in front of him for the sake of living in peace, same with drinking in front of them. But im not going to let ones bondage and legalism dictate my life, thats is unbiblical.

    Weakness & legalism are not the same. If a brother is weak with alcohol, thats a legitimate reason not to drink.... if a brother is legalistic with alcohol... that is not.
    Last edited by phil; 06-25-2007 at 11:36 AM.

  5. #165
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctide View Post
    but thats not what we are saying.... clearly many christians are saying "drinking is a sin".

    just like the converts whom the letter of hebrews or galatians was written to.

    if drinking is going to cause my brother to fall into the sin of drunkeness... fine, I wont drink. If drinking is going to cause my brother to think I am a sinner? Come on now. Do yuo listen to HHH? That might cause some folks to think you believe secular hip hop is good.

    If listening to HHH in front of a new convert will kick him back to tuning to Hot 97.... i wont listen in front of him. If listening to HHH will cause a pharisee in the church who doesnt understand the law to think I am a sinner. Please!

    I still wont bump it in front of him for the sake of living in peace, same with drinking in front of them. But im not going to let ones bondage and legalism dictate my life, thats is unbiblical.

    Weakness & legalism are not the same. If a brother is weak with alcohol, thats a legitimate reason not to drink.... if a brother is legalistic with alcohol... that is not.
    I should have shortened King Neb's resposne to Cyple's question to

    No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."
    The weaker Christians in Romans 14 avoided food (in the word's of King Neb)"whether or not God approves it"


    That is what I am referring to.
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
    WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    I should have shortened King Neb's resposne to Cyple's question to



    The weaker Christians in Romans 14 avoided food (in the word's of King Neb)"whether or not God approves it"


    That is what I am referring to.
    no doubt "weak" christian

    most likely a convert from idol worship... eating "idol" meat was something he had to avoid

    just like an ex-drunk should probably avoid beer and wine while they are baby christians

    and so should the strong mature christians in front of them

    I believe SOM made some good points about your witness to alcoholics, just doesnt set a moral standard for our private and person lives as christians in reguard to alcohol.

  7. #167
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Whyme,

    What does Romans 14 have to do with non-believers?

  8. #168
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    it should also be noted to that in Romans 14 (which is in the context of believers), the weak one is the one who eats vegetables only. The weak ones are the ones who declare unclean what God has declared clean.

    ESV Romans 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

    Somehow, that has been completely twisted and reversed from some here. Some of you would have us believe that the strong ones are the ones who completely abstain from wine, while the weak ones are those who drink it...possibly flirting with drunkenness and the appearance of evil.

    What takes stronger discipline - to avoid something altogether or to exercise moderation?
    Last edited by king neb; 06-25-2007 at 12:40 PM.

  9. #169
    HCR Veterano StreetSermonz's Avatar
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    I was JUST reading Romans 14, check this out Neb - "20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

    I wouldn't say drinking beer is a sin for everyone. It is a heart issue tho, if it messes with one's conscience, becomes an idol, or causes another to stumble as Romans 14 points out.

    It also depends on your office. If you are called to be an Elder, Bishop, I would even argue a Pastor, we are told not to drink wine, either in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 (somebody look up that passage, I don't have time I gotta go!)

    "I don't get tipsy, I don't drink beer" - Believin' Stephen Brindle

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreetSermonz View Post
    I was JUST reading Romans 14, check this out Neb - "20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

    I wouldn't say drinking beer is a sin for everyone. It is a heart issue tho, if it messes with one's conscience, becomes an idol, or causes another to stumble as Romans 14 points out.
    this applies to everything, nobody is disagreeing with this. again, do you eat cake? do you watch TV, do you enjoy sports?

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetSermonz View Post
    It also depends on your office. If you are called to be an Elder, Bishop, I would even argue a Pastor, we are told not to drink wine, either in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 (somebody look up that passage, I don't have time I gotta go!)

    "I don't get tipsy, I don't drink beer" - Believin' Stephen Brindle
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul to Timothy
    "3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money."
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul to Titus
    "not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain"
    ^^^^"given to drunkeness!!!!" "lover of money!!!!" nothing in this verse can conclude anything wrong with money or wine

  11. #171
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    son of man,

    Glory to God that you don't drink. You are fully convinced in your mind, so it would be sin for you to drink. If we were together, I wouldn't drink around you. I've got the Holy Spirit too. I've got Jesus too. I know the Joy of the Lord outweighs all this stuff too. I don't seek to find rest or eternal gladness from alcohol.

    When I eat, I eat to the glory of God, and when I drink, I drink to the Glory of God.

    Love you bro.
    *daps BondServant up, gives him a hug, then puts him in a headlock and gives him a nugee for that virgin daquiri rebuttal

  12. #172
    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    i personally don't believe Jesus drunk alcohol. the pharisees accused him of being a winebibber but that doesn't mean he drank alcohol. that just means they accused Him of being a drunk. they also accused him of casting out devils by the power of beelzebub. but that doesn't mean Jesus had anything to do with witchcraft. besides, even some of the onlookers on the day of pentecost mocked and accused the apostles of being drunk. if anybody disagrees, no problem. i'm simply reasoning from the scriptures.
    You are not reasoning from the scriptures and you are confused about Christ b/c Christ says that he drinks.

    Matthew 11:16-19

    16"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,
    17"'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
    we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
    18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."


    What do you think he says he's drinking cookie??? It can't be water b/c them accussing him of being a drunkard would make no sense. I think you need to start considering that you are beyond the scriptures right now and in showing clear personal convictions. It's really not called for and you need to consult your Pastor or Elder on this matter. B/c you are clearly in error as shown by everyone on here but you refuse to accept correction. So I suggest that's where you go.

    Hail King Jesus,
    seal

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    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StreetSermonz View Post
    21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
    Yes, but what does that mean? Does that mean that we are to prohibit any and all things that make others stumble? Is that what Paul is saying?

    Listening to hiphop tempts people.
    Wearing shorts tempts people.
    Being on the internet tempts people.

    Do you eat at all in public? And if so, what do you eat?

    See where i am going with this? You can name just about any human activity and someone, somewhere, calls it "sin" or says it leads to it.

    Hip hoppers ought to know this better than any. How many times have we come across a 'Christian' who said that it was wrong to rap? I have...a ton of times having lived in a small country town in Alabama.

    Christian hip-hop offends THOUSANDS. Wearing shorts offends thousands. Using the internet offends thousands.

    My wife just got an email from an old friend from alabama who questions any Christian with a myspace page because of all the filth on there.

    So, is that what Paul is saying there? Drop any and everything that offends people?

    I think not. And i don't think anyone here does either, (for how could we do anything) YET, some argue that way when it comes to alcohol for some reason.
    Last edited by king neb; 06-25-2007 at 01:09 PM.

  14. #174
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    The points in this last post from king neb are good.

    Believers should examine every area of life. Drinking isn't a sin itself. Those who choose to drink should truly examine whether they are being a stumblingblock. If at the bar at TGI Friday's with a bunch of non-believing coworkers and you are seen by a teenager who you mentor, may be. If at a wedding, drinking a glass of champagne as part of the toast, probably not. There is no one answer. That is why we need the Holy Spirit for direction.

    Eating is different. If you are eating at a restaurant in public, everyone has to eat so that alone isn't a reasonable discussion. If you are in great shape, and eating a big dessert in front of your cousin who you know is struggling with their diet, may be.

    Wearing shorts is different. If a female wears modest shorts halfway down her thigh in the Middle East, yes. If a female wears modest shorts halfway down her thigh in downtown Chicago, no. There is no one answer but we should examine our behavior and let God get us where He wants us to be and not assume we are OK.

    Personally, for drinking, I choose not to as I know that particular area can't have me being a stumblingblock. In the US of A, the secular culture is based around the deificiation of beer. I choose not to be part of that culture at all.

    Personally for eating, I eat healthy for the most part. For females wearing shorts, I think believers are better than non-believers but some can do a better job of not giving brothers so much to look at. To them, they are being cute, to some young brothas trying to do the right thing, they are giving visuals and a stumbling block.

  15. #175
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    what about wearing skimpy shorts at home alone

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    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    hey, when the kids are not home i dance with the wolves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    hey, when the kids are not home i dance with the wolves.
    wonderful

  18. #178
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    Chicken and waffles drinking liquor from the Bottle-Cruz Cordero

    Thats all I gotta say!

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    When I am home. I wear my cashmere trench coat with a scarf. Cat got his heat cut off!! Wait, its summer! Never mind.

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    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    Whyme,

    What does Romans 14 have to do with non-believers?
    Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever.

    Would Paul say all this about people who don't drink or avoid certain foods:

    No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."

    Why should a non-believer listen to anything you have to say if you just create the rules as you go and disregard what God has said?

    "hey sir, I want you to believe God's Word...follow Him....uhhh...except this alcohol part because we clearly have story after story that proves that alcohol is bad."

    ____

    This is why i jumped on this thread. I'm not merely interested in defending my right to pop the top. There are more fundamental...more important issues here...issues that affect all other topics as well.

    Like:

    1. Ultimate Authority - some have revealed that their ultimate authority is not God, but experiences, stats, and other things.

    2. Logic - some have revealed either an outright denial or severe lack of understanding in basic valid reasoning (logic).

    3. Empiricism - some have revealed a strong adherence to the idea that knowledge comes through experience. That universals are determined by scientific fact and polls.

    All three of these, i believe, are intermingled. And it is these types of things that create problems in other areas, such as holiness, salvation, eschatology...you name it.

    ______

    So again. NO, it would be a HORRIBLE witness because of what such arguments imply on a foundational level.
    I don't think so. And the weaker Christian in this "drinking beer" case is myself and others who avoid drinking beer according to Romans 14. I wasn't calling people drinking beer a weak christian.

    Anyway, God is soverign and can use both the drinker and non drinker as a witness. So to argue "which is a better witness" is pointless. To say one is better than the other is flat out arrogant and wrong. Both sides can give countless stories being a witness for Christ as we have seen here. God is Good.
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
    WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee

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