Do you drink beer?

[BondServant]

before i got saved i used to get my drink on and smoke weed daily. that was my lifestyle. however whenever i got saved, the Lord delivered me from all of that. nobody had to tell me that drinking was wrong or smokin was wrong. i had a witness in my spirit that it was wrong. when i accepted Jesus, old things passed away and ALL things were made new.

you can consider me a modern day John the baptist b/c from the time i was reborn i knew that alcohol wasn't God's plan for my life. God called me to holiness. wasn't nothing sinful about wearing robes and nice gear but John wore camel's hair and a leather belt. wasn't nothing wrong with eating food but all John ate was locusts and wild honey.

catz is asking if i think i'm more holy than Christ b/c i don't drink wine...lol. i'll answer that by asking if John was holier than Christ b/c he didn't drink wine. (and no my answer doesn't mean that Christ drank alcohol). in mk 14:25 and lk 22:18, all Jesus says is that he won't drink from the "fruit of the vine" until he drinks it new in His kingdom. that phrase comes from a combination of different greek words that simply mean "fruit" or "generation" and "vine". there's absolutely no inference that those words refer to alcohol. Jesus is simply saying he won't drink any fruit juice until he comes back.

i personally don't believe Jesus drunk alcohol. the pharisees accused him of being a winebibber but that doesn't mean he drank alcohol. that just means they accused Him of being a drunk. they also accused him of casting out devils by the power of beelzebub. but that doesn't mean Jesus had anything to do with witchcraft. besides, even some of the onlookers on the day of pentecost mocked and accused the apostles of being drunk. if anybody disagrees, no problem. i'm simply reasoning from the scriptures.

i been mainly speaking about myself and my own personal convictions (even though i would have thought i was in the majority vs. the minority). i been saying since the beginning that i don't judge people for drinking wine. but appearantly that's not good enough. catz want me to pat em on the back and tell em it's ok for them to drink. sorry, but that's not gonna happen. why?

well, first of all, i don't know who's reading this thread? younger, impressionable belivers maybe? who knows? so i'm careful how i coin my responses. some of ya'll may get offended by some of the things i imply (can't help that). when everything is done and said, i could be held accountable for what i said or didn't say in a thread like this. so while i won't say that a christian isn't really saved b/c they drink, i won't endorse such or put God's stamp of approval on it either.

i been saying all throughout this thread that what you choose to do with your temple is b/w you and the Lord. i care whether or not you drink but i don't CARE whether or not you drink (some of ya'll gonna catch that tomorrow) this isn't a debate to me. God didn't call me to convince people of anything. that's the Holy Spirit's job.

my purpose was simply to challenge some of you biblically and spiritually. biblically, i'm not so much concerned what you believe as why you believe it. perhaps some of you weren't informed about how in the NT the greek word for "wine" can refer to either alcohol or grape juice. maybe some of you didn't realize that not every hebrew word translated "wine" in the OT actually referred to alcohol. perhaps you weren't aware there's 1 word for grape juice and a totally different word for alcohol even though our english bibles say "wine" in both instances.

now after you know the difference and apply those study skills to formulate interpretations, i have no problem what you come up with. i might challenge your beliefs and/or interpretations but at the end of the day, i respect your mind. i just refuse to sit by and let people offer and accept interpretations based on ignorance (there he goes with that word again...lol). it doesn't matter to me what you personally believe Jesus turned water into as long as you understand that the word for "wine" could refer to grape juice or alcohol.

the only reason i gave my opinion was b/c Gloria asked. we can argue the point all day but when everything is done and said, all we really have is speculation. *makes note to ask Jesus whenever i see Him in Glory* speaking of which, on many of these passages all i can offer is speculation. i admit that. if you have a more solid biblical interpretation, enlighten me please. i really wanna know why God ordained fermented wine to be used as drink offerings? i wanna know why God told israel they could use their tithe money to purchase wine and strong drink? i'm here to teach but i'm also here to learn. oftentime's i speculate b/c i really don't know. there's nothing wrong with speculation as long as everyone understands that's all it is. but hey, we have to start somewhere dont we?

some of ya'll catz keep asking for proof concerning why wine today is stronger than biblical times. but then ya'll argue that it doesn't matter one way or another b/c that doesn't prove anything. for the record, why belittle the point for "proof" if after i dig up every reference i can find, you just come back and say that my "proof" doesn't really prove anything...lol. if there's something specific you want me to provide, just let me know and i'll see what I got.

but my whole point was that if wine and strong drink is stronger today than it was in biblical times, then just b/c it may have been alright then, doesn't mean it's automatically alright now. but that's just an argument, food for thought, whatever. the fact of the matter is whether or not it's a sin (in and of itself) isn't the issue. the question that needs to be answered is whether or not it's edifying. paul taught that all things were lawful, but not all things were profitable (1 corin 6:12, 10:23).

paul taught there's a number of things the bible doesn't specifically say are sinful in and of themselves. nevertheless, they can be sinful if not practiced under the law of love. he used drinking as an illustration (romans14:16-21). i love unbelievers enough not to drink alcohol. i love my brothers and sisters in Christ enough not to drink alcohol. catz asked whether or not playing the xbox edifies? ofcourse not, video games are of the devil. j/k the point paul was making wasn't that you shouldn't do anything that doesn't produce a godly result. he was teaching that you should avoid anything that COULD produce an ungodly one.

it doesn't matter whether or not you could drink alcohol and not go to hell. could your drinking alcohol cause your brother to stumble? could your drinking alcohol set a bad example for someone else? could your drinking alcohol hinder your witness? let's not get bogged down in minor details and arguments over the law. let's look at the bigger picture here.

we can even take it a step further spiritually...

what if the feeling of joy and gladness induced by alcohol was actually counterfeit? what if the devil created drunkeness and drugs as an alternative to the Holy Spirit? what if God had something for believers a million times better than what alcohol could ever offer? what if God encouraged people to drink wine b/c it symbolized the coming joy believers would have in the Holy Ghost? what if everytime you partook of the symbol, you were missing or neglecting what the symbol actually represented? could that have been what paul was trying to get across in eph. 5:15-18 when he exhorted believers to be filled with the SPirit instead of being drunk with wine?

in that same chapter he encouraged believers not to even have a hint of impurity. he said they were once darkness but now light so find out what was pleasing to the Lord. he said they shouldn't participate in darkness but expose it. he wanted them to live wise and not unwise b/c the days are evil. he wanted them to make the most out of every opportunity.

that's all i want for you guys and gals. i'm not trying to argue or debate. personally i thought i was threw with this thread 2 or 3 essays back...lol. but folks kept asking questions like they didn't understand what i was saying or where i was coming from. hopefully it's all clear now. now how bout a round of virgin daquiris on me?

Son of man,

There's a lot to respond here, but there's nothing to respond to.(you'll get it later).

Honestly though, I was going to respond point by point, but it's a waste of time. I've made my arguments from scripture, and you can't refute them. And please, stop talking past me(some of y'all cats), talk to me.

Virgin Daiquiris? Naw, that has the appearance of evil. Cuz only you know that it's a virgin daiquiri.

[BondServant]

It seems you are half way making a joke and half way serious.

I will address the half way serious, since this point was brought up by somebody else in this thread.

This is not directed towards BC, but to everybody who uses the gluttony argument to make a point because I've been hearing it frequently used lately to justify things and I just wanted to finally respond briefly on that.

It should be obvious this argument is not biblical and sad, justifying anything that could be right or wrong,(drinking in this case) by comparing it to something that many people constantly do and is clearly a sin in the bible(gluttony) does not make it right.

I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.)

Once you become fully reformed you'll understand.

One of us, one of us, one of us, one of us, one of us. That's right, drink the kool-aid.

[JusThoughtZ]

I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.)

I'm impressed by your honesty.

+10 cool points.

Oh and I don't consume(alcohol)for personal reasons.

I don't even take cough syrup. lol.

[JusThoughtZ]

Toward the end of proverbs (I can't remember off the top) Solomon (by wisdom from God) states to reserve strong drink for the elderly/dying. Medicinal use.

Also, when the bible speaks of wine, it is fermented. Check your sources. Noah drank and was drunk. Other people in the NT drank and were merry (buzzed). Proverbs said nothing against drinking but made many quotes concerning being a drunkard. Also, there is no scientific evidence to show that unfermented grape juice promotes digestive health. Wine is what helps. Therefore, when Paul states to have a little wine with a meal to help digestion, he was giving directions: it's okay...in moderation.



BUT, nowadays, drinking is synonomous with sin so it's better to avoid it altogether IMO. I'm just saying it's not a sin.

Pc.

Thats pretty much how I thought it to be. Well said Daniel Son.
*sips sake*

[KPfaREAL]

...now how bout a round of virgin daquiris on me?

Virgin Daiquiris? Naw, that has the appearance of evil. Cuz only you know that it's a virgin daiquiri.

KO

[JusThoughtZ]

KO

lol@the instigation

[Kerry1914]

It seems you are half way making a joke and half way serious.

Actually, I'm fully serious. There are plenty of people who rail on (and I've seen it in the SBC) about drinking drinking drinking, yet they're overweight and can't seem to resist that third piece of cake.

It should be obvious this argument is not biblical and sad, justifying anything that could be right or wrong,(drinking in this case) by comparing it to something that many people constantly do and is clearly a sin in the bible(gluttony) does not make it right.

The thing is, drinking alcohol in the bible is not called a sin. Period. Getting drunk IS called a sin. Similarly, eating food is not called sin, but gluttony IS.

This is seen in Psalm 104:

14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for man to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:

15 wine that gladdens the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine,
and bread that sustains his heart. ( Psalm 104:14-15)

It is God who brings forth all of these things for specific purposes - including wine to 'gladden' (make happy) the heart of man. It's there for that reason, just as sex is there for married couples to rejoice in each other.

The problem always happens when we take things out of their context or do them in excess as NOT allowed by scripture. So we have warnings against gluttony, drunkenness and fornication/adultery. All three of these things take what God has created for good (see passages above) for man's benefit and uses them for evil.

Speaking from a historical perspective, the 'grape juice' argument only came about 150 years ago. Prior to that - 1700 years - everybody - INCLUDING the Anabaptists - used real wine both at the communion table AND in their celebrations. I used to believe the whole 'no alcohol' argument too till I actually went back in history and looked at what was believed and what was used.

I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.)

Yep. There are a bunch of them. The 'baptistic' tradition (which includes charismatics, baptists and anyone who holds to 'believers baptism') is where this originated from. It's actually an outgrowth of the memorialist view of the Lord's supper. I dug into this back in 2000 prior to becoming a Calvinist and again in 05 in discussions with my pastor.

Give me a few days, I'll post a bibliography for you to check up on the subject.

And I don't know if anyone's addressed it yet, but the greek word for 'appearance' at 1 Thess. 5:22 can also be translated as "kind", which throws a whole different light on this discussion.

All that said, I won't drink around a believer who's had a past problem with alcohol. I have no problem drinking around an unbeliever because according to scripture, my responsibility to not have my brother stumble supercedes any responsibility to a non-Christian (Romans 13-14).

Also realize this: taking alcohol in moderation will look slightly different for each person. Speaking for me, I buy a bottle of wine every 2 months or so and take 2-3 weeks to finish it off sometimes (sometimes only 2 weeks, since the average bottle only holds 2-4 glasses of wine). If I buy a 6-pack of coolers, you come to my house 2 months later, I might have 3-4 left.

I generally stay away from 'strong drink' (stuff designed to get you drunk quickly). I've never been drunk (in fact, in college, I didn't drink at all - I was always the bruh that watched out for the rest of my frat and friends when they got drunk!).

What's funny here, is that some of the same people who advocated liberty in worshipping God as they pleased over in the worship thread (when scripture is a LOT more specific about how God is to be worshipped) are the same ones putting time and energy into saying that all alcohol should be abstained from (which the scriptures DO NOT say). Learn the major issues, folks. Focus on them.

[Gloria]

What's funny here, is that some of the same people who advocated liberty in worshipping God as they pleased over in the worship thread (when scripture is a LOT more specific about how God is to be worshipped) are the same ones putting time and energy into saying that all alcohol should be abstained from (which the scriptures DO NOT say). Learn the major issues, folks. Focus on them.

I noticed this too...hmmmmm

[WhyMe]

The thing is, drinking alcohol in the bible is not called a sin. Period. Getting drunk IS called a sin. Similarly, eating food is not called sin, but gluttony IS.

I know there has been a lot going on in this thread, you mentioned that you haven't read every post, so I just wanted to clarify my position:

~I never said alcohol is a sin. I know what the Bible teaches on wine and that it is not a sin. My argument has been the Christian appearance.

I pray that Christians are not using alcohol to have something in common with an unbeliever when they go out with them or justifying drinking alcohol so they can fit in with the unbelieving crowd. I didn't get that from any of the posters in this thread, but I am concerned for the young or weaker Christian.


~Also, I don't belong to SBC and I have never been involved with SBC.


Kerry what is special about 1914? Is that when your fraternity started?

[Kerry1914]

I know there has been a lot going on in this thread, you mentioned that you haven't read every post, so I just wanted to clarify my position:

~I never said alcohol is a sin. I know what the Bible teaches on wine and that it is not a sin. My argument has been the Christian appearance.

Understandable brethren.

Let me hit you with this - if it's based on appearance, would it be okay at a gathering of believers who all held the same understanding of alcohol (not sinful, but only drunkenness is sinful, Psalm 104, etc...etc...) ?

I pray that Christians are not using alcohol to have something in common with an unbeliever when they go out with them or justifying drinking alcohol so they can fit in with the unbelieving crowd.

That's actually a good concern and in fact, I'd probably say that to use alcohol in this fashion will probably fall close to the line of sin - just like using other things to 'fit in' could equally fall near to the line of sin if used to 'fit in' with an unbelieving crowd (why would you want to fit in with an unbelieving crowd anyway ?).

Kerry what is special about 1914?

It's my other yahoo ID

[ZestD]

Actually, I'm fully serious. There are plenty of people who rail on (and I've seen it in the SBC) about drinking drinking drinking, yet they're overweight and can't seem to resist that third piece of cake.



The thing is, drinking alcohol in the bible is not called a sin. Period. Getting drunk IS called a sin. Similarly, eating food is not called sin, but gluttony IS.

What's funny here, is that some of the same people who advocated liberty in worshipping God as they pleased over in the worship thread (when scripture is a LOT more specific about how God is to be worshipped) are the same ones putting time and energy into saying that all alcohol should be abstained from (which the scriptures DO NOT say). Learn the major issues, folks. Focus on them.

All of this is strong and I fully agree. Provocative.

See also my "Beers and Ales" thread from a while back.

[Brownie]

Hello All,

I am new to this forum but I wanted to comment on this subject.

I'm coming in late in the convo---- and I haven't read all 8 pages so forgive me if my point has been made already.


I agree that in this country anything alcoholic has the appearance of evil. We are so used to people getting to get drunk and not because certain wines actually brings out the flavor in certain foods. I know quite a few people that are really into wines--- they are not drunks in any way shape or form. They are actually very well to do classy people that I have never seen drunk. They can tell you all the different grapes and why wines are different. They have a glass of wine with their meal.

In other countries wine is served with almost every mean--- and probably a different wine with each course during that meal. I think that alcohol consumption has been perverted in this country. I think we are so used to people drinking to get drunk and doing it all the time. Now, I would never want to cause another brother to stumble so I wouldn't drink it in public. But I think that it really is cultural.

I have more to say, but I think that is enough for my opening post

[Brownie]

Ok--- I have read most of this thread and I really hope that the point of this discussion is to edify one another.

If you can't do it in faith then you shouldn't do it.

If it is sin for YOU then don't do it

And, I also love the fact that one poster (don't remember who) said that you need to pray first. But, we should be praying in all we do--- even before we eat or drink anything.

[Brownie]

Oh--- one more thing. I personally don't drink but I would never say that it is always a sin nor is it always the appearance of evil.

[Cyple]

I have a question. If we prohibit drinking as Christians, is this a good witness to non-believers? Imagine you're witnessing to someone who drinks responsibly.

[son of man]

Son of man,

There's a lot to respond here, but there's nothing to respond to.(you'll get it later).

Honestly though, I was going to respond point by point, but it's a waste of time. I've made my arguments from scripture, and you can't refute them. And please, stop talking past me(some of y'all cats), talk to me.

Virgin Daiquiris? Naw, that has the appearance of evil. Cuz only you know that it's a virgin daiquiri.

BondServant, several years ago there was a guy i had been discipling. me and a friend pulled him aside and kinda took him under our wings so to speak. i haven't had much to do with alcohol since i got saved. but on one occasion i had been drinking. as i recall, i don't think i was drunk but i was definately buzzin. well i was at the store and i saw that young christian i had been mentoring. now understand, baton rouge isn't this huge city but it's not exactly a small town either. you don't expect to run into people you know, much less those you've been witnessing and ministering to. but that day i did.

he didn't see me but nevertheless i was SO convicted. The Lord taught me something that day. you don't really know who's around or who's watching your walk. from that day forward i started looking at things differently. i don't know every clerk at every store i might choose to buy alcohol from but they may know me or know someone who knows me. nowadays there's alot of people lookin for an excuse to disregard christianity. the enemy roams around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. he's more than happy to not only murder someone physically but also kill their reputation, witness and character. we see these things happen daily. that's ample reason for me to stand on the side of caution.

here's another experience more recently...

i thank God my for relationship with Him. But i haven't always been as close to the Lord as i am now. i haven't always been as consecrated as i try to be presently. i can remember a time when i wasn't really walking with the Lord as I should. well anyway, out of the blue, this guy called me to come and preach- not next week or in a couple of days. he needed me in a couple of hours. i didn't have time to repent and fully seek the Lord in restoration like i would have wanted. that day the Lord taught me something else. i have to be ready at a moments notice to minister. there's no time to get ready. i gotta stay ready. i gotta stay sober minded and ready to give a reason for the hope that i have. and no, i'm not implying anything about you or anybody else. i speaking about me.

the Lord is faithful though. much more faithful than i have been. i've tried to be wise and use these lessons that he's taught me as well as some of the other more disasterous lessons i've seen in the lives of other christian leaders. i've seen fruit from my convictions as well.

on many occasions i've been around catz who were drinking. they'd offer me something and i refuse. they'd ask me if i drink which opened up a door for the gospel. everytime, i tell em nah. i been there and done that. i tell em Jesus delivered me and now i don't need to drink b/c i got something better. i tell em i've already been where they're at. i've already experienced what alcohol and drugs have to offer but i'm not convinced. it might gladden the heart for a season but at what expense?

i tell em i've found the Holy Spirit to be much more enjoyable! i tell em i know what being smoked out and high, buzzed and drunk feels like. but the joy and high i get from the Holy Ghost FAR outweigh anything this world has to offer. i don't judge them for what they do. i just do me and invite them to experience what i have.

fam, i hear everything you and others are saying on the topic. you've studied the word and come to your own conclusion. i have no beef with that. but like i said earlier, no man taught me to live the way i do. i'm simply trying to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance in MY life. i type these words not to condemn you or anybody else for what you do. i type these words to encourage others who have similar convictions or might be on the fence concerning this issue. i pray some of the things said have encouraged someone. and even if you disagree with some or all of my reasoning, i hope this has been educational. i know i've learned alot in this thread so to God be the glory!

[BondServant]

BondServant, several years ago there was a guy i had been discipling. me and a friend pulled him aside and kinda took him under our wings so to speak. i haven't had much to do with alcohol since i got saved. but on one occasion i had been drinking. as i recall, i don't think i was drunk but i was definately buzzin. well i was at the store and i saw that young christian i had been mentoring. now understand, baton rouge isn't this huge city but it's not exactly a small town either. you don't expect to run into people you know, much less those you've been witnessing and ministering to. but that day i did.

he didn't see me but nevertheless i was SO convicted. The Lord taught me something that day. you don't really know who's around or who's watching your walk. from that day forward i started looking at things differently. i don't know every clerk at every store i might choose to buy alcohol from but they may know me or know someone who knows me. nowadays there's alot of people lookin for an excuse to disregard christianity. the enemy roams around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. he's more than happy to not only murder someone physically but also kill their reputation, witness and character. we see these things happen daily. that's ample reason for me to stand on the side of caution.

here's another experience more recently...

i thank God my for relationship with Him. But i haven't always been as close to the Lord as i am now. i haven't always been as consecrated as i try to be presently. i can remember a time when i wasn't really walking with the Lord as I should. well anyway, out of the blue, this guy called me to come and preach- not next week or in a couple of days. he needed me in a couple of hours. i didn't have time to repent and fully seek the Lord in restoration like i would have wanted. that day the Lord taught me something else. i have to be ready at a moments notice to minister. there's no time to get ready. i gotta stay ready. i gotta stay sober minded and ready to give a reason for the hope that i have. and no, i'm not implying anything about you or anybody else. i speaking about me.

the Lord is faithful though. much more faithful than i have been. i've tried to be wise and use these lessons that he's taught me as well as some of the other more disasterous lessons i've seen in the lives of other christian leaders. i've seen fruit from my convictions as well.

on many occasions i've been around catz who were drinking. they'd offer me something and i refuse. they'd ask me if i drink which opened up a door for the gospel. everytime, i tell em nah. i been there and done that. i tell em Jesus delivered me and now i don't need to drink b/c i got something better. i tell em i've already been where they're at. i've already experienced what alcohol and drugs have to offer but i'm not convinced. it might gladden the heart for a season but at what expense?

i tell em i've found the Holy Spirit to be much more enjoyable! i tell em i know what being smoked out and high, buzzed and drunk feels like. but the joy and high i get from the Holy Ghost FAR outweigh anything this world has to offer. i don't judge them for what they do. i just do me and invite them to experience what i have.

fam, i hear everything you and others are saying on the topic. you've studied the word and come to your own conclusion. i have no beef with that. but like i said earlier, no man taught me to live the way i do. i'm simply trying to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance in MY life. i type these words not to condemn you or anybody else for what you do. i type these words to encourage others who have similar convictions or might be on the fence concerning this issue. i pray some of the things said have encouraged someone. and even if you disagree with some or all of my reasoning, i hope this has been educational. i know i've learned alot in this thread so to God be the glory!

son of man,

Glory to God that you don't drink. You are fully convinced in your mind, so it would be sin for you to drink. If we were together, I wouldn't drink around you. I've got the Holy Spirit too. I've got Jesus too. I know the Joy of the Lord outweighs all this stuff too. I don't seek to find rest or eternal gladness from alcohol.

When I eat, I eat to the glory of God, and when I drink, I drink to the Glory of God.

Love you bro.

[Knyce924]

I drink root beer

Yea I don't drink beer at all either, never have either. Root beer is good tho..regular beer even smells off.

I'm an IBC man just because the bottle is made of glass.

I actually had IBC for the first time last friday actually, we went out to eat.. it was weird drinking soda out of a glass like that lol it was good tho, their Creme soda is bomb also =)

No beer tho 1)i'm underage and 2) I prefer not

[phil]

Yo Son of Man,

this is said in humility.. but your ignorance of wine is made clear in that next to last post!

you said "distilled" you dont distill wine

wine and beer and ale, are natural fermented drinks

distilled drinks are liquor and that is restricted from normal grocery stores (you can only get that stuff in ABC stores ... at least in NC)

perhaps our wine is slightly stronger, because of stronger yeasts found and used, but we are talking going from maybe 18% to 20-22% alcohole by volume

famo, our SOME!!! wine maybe have a SLIGHTLY higher level of alcohole... but mostly its very close... and the rule of thumb there would be... drink SLIGHTLY less or ALOT less then if it was lower levels of alcohole

the LAW restricts getting DRUNK!!! not drinking "good or strong wine"

honestly, SOM... i appreciate your zeal for holiness!!! I really do, I do believe you want to please the lord and concecrate yourself before him

I also believe the amish are truely trying to please the lord, as are the orthodox jews and nuns up in convents with black head peices

and i also believe God is pleased when folks who love him, seperate themself for him by denying themselves. but you and the amish and the nuns all got a misunderstanding of God's rules and are wrongly applying your man made rules on others.

Holiness before the Lord is the most important thing, I lead a holy life... I constantly tell my youth group to live holy lives.... I tell them to avoid temptation and teach on how to confront and destroy sin in their lives and how to approach a brother in sin. Restoring people to God.... keeping impure thoughts out of your mind and heart... ect

Holiness is so vital!!!! You and I agree here. You are just misunderstanding on the fact that wine and fermented drink in moderation is part of our blessed life and comes from God and is not seperate from a holy life.

Please in prayer and holiness search the BIBLE, not the american church (which rebuke moderate alcohole, yet tolerates gluttony, divorce and compromise in sexual impurity... "as long as they are gonna get married" type junk)

seek the bible, do a word study, EXEGITE what the word "wine" actually means (dont assume your pastor is correct... dont assume I or Bondservant are correct) study to find out on your own

get you a concordance & see what wine really refers to... wikipedia what levels of alcohole is in our COMMON modern wine verse ancient wine..... they have certain wines made from superyeasts which increase the levels some... but is probably not what Bond, Neb, Myself, ect... drink

I pray you will grow in your understanding of God's blessings, freedom, and moral restrictions in your study.

Grace and peace fam!

feel free to hit me up on email

ctidemusic@hotmail.com

[king neb]

I have a question. If we prohibit drinking as Christians, is this a good witness to non-believers? Imagine you're witnessing to someone who drinks responsibly.

No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."

Why should a non-believer listen to anything you have to say if you just create the rules as you go and disregard what God has said?

"hey sir, I want you to believe God's Word...follow Him....uhhh...except this alcohol part because we clearly have story after story that proves that alcohol is bad."

____

This is why i jumped on this thread. I'm not merely interested in defending my right to pop the top. There are more fundamental...more important issues here...issues that affect all other topics as well.

Like:

1. Ultimate Authority - some have revealed that their ultimate authority is not God, but experiences, stats, and other things.

2. Logic - some have revealed either an outright denial or severe lack of understanding in basic valid reasoning (logic).

3. Empiricism - some have revealed a strong adherence to the idea that knowledge comes through experience. That universals are determined by scientific fact and polls.

All three of these, i believe, are intermingled. And it is these types of things that create problems in other areas, such as holiness, salvation, eschatology...you name it.

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So again. NO, it would be a HORRIBLE witness because of what such arguments imply on a foundational level.