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  1. #101
    HCR Veterano Cyple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    There's nothin like a cold beer after a hard days work. Especially when you get done mowing the yard and your wife hands you a cold one. You pop that top and see that smoke(whatever that is) come out boy ain't nothin like that first swig. It goes down so smooth.
    Sho ya right!

  2. #102
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    yeah, you're right. both numbers 15:5-10 and exodus 29:40 deal with fermented wine. however neither one of those gave instructions to drink them. they were to be used as a drink offering in sacrifice. however, that does bring up the question as to why the Lord would call for such? i'll have to dig a lil deeper into that.
    But if it's to be abstained from, then God is giving mixed signals. If this gives the "appearance of evil", how can Yahweh make it a law to give an offering? That doesn't make any sense. You'll have to abandon your view, because there is simply no getting around it. It was an acceptable offering to the Lord.

    as far as gen 14:18, you're right again that does deal with fermented wine as well. however the reason why Melchizedek probably brought Abraham fermented wine was b/c in those days there wasn't any refrigeration or any other means to keep grape juice from fermenting. so it would have probably been brought out of circumstance rather than promotion/endorsement.
    So then this is a probability? You admit that you don't have any evidence for your refrigeration theory?

    concerning deut 14:26, you're right a third time, this was also fermented wine. however, the context has to do with the yearly tithe. isreal would meet at the tabernacle or temple and present their tithes to the Lord (if you don't believe in tithing, you can't use this scripture to support drinking alcohol). the isrealites were instructed to sell their tithes if they lived too far to carry their tithes to the tabernacle or temple. once they got to the feast, they would have used the money to, in effect, purchase the things they sold and then consume them in the presence of the Lord.
    How come I can't use this scripture? Nor do we offer up burnt offerings or drink offerings anymore, so how come I can't use this scripture? The sacrifices and offerings have been done away with(at least in a non-dispensational view), there's no reference in the scriptures that consuming alcohol has been done away with. But to my point, how can you argue that it's wrong to consume alcohol if here God is encouraging its use? Regardless if you feel it's connected to tithes, God still encouraged it. If it's wrong, it should be wrong in ALL circumstances.

    i lack a commentary on deut so i really can't say anything else concerning that verse. it does seem to suggest the use of wine or strong drink once a year and only in the presence of the Lord as an act of worship. but once again, to use such to support drinking socially in moderation is to take that passage out of context.
    It doesn't "seem to suggest", it simply and clearly and emphatically suggests. Your argument here is severly flawed. You say that it suggests that it's an act of worship, yet at the same time argue against it's use in moderation. So then if it can be used as an act of worship, why do you assume that it's wrong when done in moderation, especially when it can be done as an act of worship. You have to abandon your view fam, it's been proven from scripture.

    now don't misunderstand, when i said that wine today is different from biblical times, i was referring to potency. today much of our wine is stronger than biblical times just as today our strong drink is much stronger than then. a good example is weed. in the 70s many people smoked pot. but the pot today is far more potent b/c of all the extra things they add to it. but on the contrary, much of the wine drunk in biblical days was diluted to prevent intoxication.
    This is what Neb and I have been asking you for. We heard you say this the first time, yet you haven't proved it. Please prove to us that this is the case. There are plenty of cases where people were intoxicated in scripture, so how do you come to the conclusion that their alcohol wasn't has potent when the same results occured?

    also, i never said that the bible says not to drink alcohol. i said that the bible teaches against it (ie the dangers of drunkeness). now in proverbs 31 the bible says it's not for kings or princes and lk 1 said it wasn't for John. whether or not it's for you is b/w you and the Lord. i already said that just b/c a person drinks doesn't mean they're not a christian.
    Where did you say that? I may have missed that, but I don't recall you arguing against drunkeness. There'd be no point to the back and forth convo if that had been the case. Cause it's clear that the scriptures speak against drukeness. What does Proverbs 31 and luke 1 prove?

    but i will caution you that in 1 tim 5, paul had to exhort timothy to drink a lil wine b/c of his stomach. whether or not this is referring to fermented wine or grape juice is not clear. but what is clear is that it was for medicinal purposes rather than him getting his buzz on.
    It's fermented wine. What does any of this prove though?

    however, if it is fermented wine being referred, then one may wonder why paul would have to encourage timothy to do so if there wasn't anything wrong with it. could it be possible that timothy refused to give the appearance of evil concerning fermented wine, even at the expense of his stomach? that sounds like love in action. the man of God went without just so he wouldn't cause his brother to stumble.
    More probabilities. One can read anything into the text if he wants then. It's possible that Timothy just didn't like wine, or any alcoholic beverage, it's possible that Timothy used to be an alcoholic and no longer wanted to associate with it, it's possible that he used to get beaten by his drunken father, or that he never knew alcohol existed, or that wine would help aid his sickness. Lots of things are possible, but it gives no room for me to build a case out of it and present it as an argument for "refusing to give the appearance of evil". That's a big leap, without any evidence.

    along the same lines, i also offered a simple testimony. i gotta stand up for holiness (being set apart unto the Lord). just like john couldn't have the testimony of drinking wine or strong drink, whenever i witness to someone, i refuse to have the smell of alcohol on my breath. the only thing i want catz to smell is the sweet fragrance of Christ and the gospel. i refuse to have my testimony in jeopardy and i refuse to cause a brother to stumble. i won't even have anyone saying they saw me at the store purchasing alcohol. i gotta come from amoung them and be separate. separate in speech AND behavior.
    How am I not standing for holiness because I drink? By saying that you stand for holiness because you don't drink, you are making ad hominems about those of us who do drink. That we are somehow less holy than you are. It's a fallacious argument. You're not John. Again, how does any of this prove that one should not drink? I'm nor arguing that you should drink, obviously it's sin to you(even though you haven't proven it from scripture).

    lastly, let it be known that in standing up for holiness, i never judge christians or anyone. i just live a set apart life and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. i don't need alcohol. not to relax. not to chill. not for anything. the devil is a liar. i have the Holy Spirit which is more than enough to last me until Jesus returns.
    What does the devil is a liar mean? What does any of that have to do with what we're talking about? Are you suggesting that because the devil is a liar and that you don't need these things, that we somehow believe that the devil is truth and need alcohol? We don't need alcohol either, as Neb has already pointed out to you. No one has said that they needed alcohol. We have the Holy Spirit too, and He's more than enough as well, but what does that have to do with anything? Are you implying that because we enjoy a nice Red Stripe(beer) that we don't have the Holy Spirit and that Christ is not enough? Indeed, another ad hominem.

    You have no support in scripture for your view, you must abandon it, and instead of conforming to your personal opinion, conform to that of scripture.

    Love you.

  3. #103
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    So when you read of Christ drinking wine(he was called a winebibber), or Jesus turning water into wine for the guests(encouraging them), or Yahweh giving Israel alcohol(wine and strong drink) as a blessing, that this could be seen as evil? Would you have run up to Jesus and told him to put that wine down because it had the appearance of evil?
    Jesus making wine in his culture is vastly different then the abuse of alcohol in our American culture. In Europe and other parts of the globe they can handle wine in moderation. However in our american culture, alcohol has connections to a godless lifestyle. I don't drink alcohol for the main reason the bible tells us to avoid the appearance of evil. The destruction and impact alcohol has had on the American family can not go unnoticed. (which of course is a result of man's total depravity )

    I understand the verses that wine was a symbol of enjoyment and blessing. However, some conclude that the induced euphoria from the alcohol is what God intended as the blessing. I believe it was the fruit of the vine that was the blessing, not its souring.

    On a side note, I do believe wine today is different then the wine back then. The Talmud records the Jewish practice of regularly reducing the effects of unmixed wine by a 3/1 ratio of water to wine. There are also other historical writings that talk about diluting wine with water before consumption, the only one I can think of off the top is Homer's Odyssey which mentions a ratio of 20 to 1(this was the most extreme one that is why I remember it, the others were like 8 to 1, etc.). Also we are able to increase the alcohol content with extra yeast and controlled heating conditions which is something they couldn't do(controlled heating).



    Just to make things clear were I stand: drinking alcohol is not sinful in itself if you don't get drunk. However the appearance of alcohol in our American culture is.
    Last edited by WhyMe; 06-23-2007 at 02:24 AM.
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  4. #104
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    Jesus making wine in his culture is vastly different then the abuse of alcohol in our American culture. In Europe and other parts of the globe they can handle wine in moderation. However in our american culture, alcohol has connections to a godless lifestyle. I don't drink alcohol for the main reason the bible tells us to avoid the appearance of evil. The destruction and impact alcohol has had on the American family can not go unnoticed. (which is of course is a result of man's total depravity )
    Can you prove this from scripture? Paul told the Ephesians to not be drunk with wine. It doesn't matter who's is more potent when the same effects happen. The same greek word was used in Pauls warning and in Christ's wedding account. It was intoxicating wine, because one could get drunk off it. It doesn't matter what it means here in the states or in Europe. We conform to scripture, not what others think.

    I understand the verses that wine was a symbol of enjoyment and blessing. However, some conclude that the induced euphoria from the alcohol is what God intended as the blessing. I believe it was the fruit of the vine that was the blessing, not its souring.
    Can you prove that from scripture?

  5. #105
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    Can you prove this from scripture? Paul told the Ephesians to not be drunk with wine. It doesn't matter who's is more potent when the same effects happen. The same greek word was used in Pauls warning and in Christ's wedding account. It was intoxicating wine, because one could get drunk off it. It doesn't matter what it means here in the states or in Europe. We conform to scripture, not what others think.
    No , but does alcohol in America have connections to a godless lifestyle? Wouldn't that lifestyle be appearance of evil?


    People bring water bottles in church to drink, why not bring a can of beer to drink in church? Appearance of evil.


    Do you honestly think Jesus would be chillin' with you at a game drinking a Beer?




    Can you prove that from scripture?
    No, can you prove it the other way?
    Last edited by WhyMe; 06-23-2007 at 02:59 AM.
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  6. #106
    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    ummm.....whyme....was wine actually ever consumed in the church?come on now dude.thats a straw right there.come better please.of course no one is gonna bring a alcoholic beverage to church.the purpose of church is for worship/praise and fellowship.not drinking beer or wine.so your argument is flawd.come better buddy.

  7. #107
    Young Bol ministerbj's Avatar
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    WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

    I came in here expecting to see people talking about the Holy Spirit and once a person gets saved let God clean them up. Only the Righteous shall see God. etc.. some good Holiness stuff... instead i came in here and saw folk talking about drinking beer, and it's ok, how to mix it...etc...

    what are your intentions when drinking beer or wine?
    how much are you consuming?
    did you drink before you got saved?
    do you consider yourself a new creature now that you have accepted Christ and that the old things in your life are passed away?
    have ya'll prayed about drinking beer and should you drink it?

    Deliverance is available to you... (singing)...lol....

    Thank you Son Of Man.. SMH.. HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLY SPIRIT....

  8. #108
    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ministerbj View Post
    WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

    I came in here expecting to see people talking about the Holy Spirit and once a person gets saved let God clean them up. Only the Righteous shall see God. etc.. some good Holiness stuff... instead i came in here and saw folk talking about drinking beer, and it's ok, how to mix it...etc...

    what are your intentions when drinking beer or wine?
    how much are you consuming?
    did you drink before you got saved?
    do you consider yourself a new creature now that you have accepted Christ and that the old things in your life are passed away?
    have ya'll prayed about drinking beer and should you drink it?

    Deliverance is available to you... (singing)...lol....

    Thank you Son Of Man.. SMH.. HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLY SPIRIT....
    brotha get over yourself.puuhhaaalleeezzee.this issue has been discussed before.maybe u missed it.but cats aint saying that you SHOULD drink.but what we are discussing is that some ppl are under the belief that drinking wine or beer is a sin.and knowhere in scripture does it say so.thats the point.if you choose not to drink i think we can all agree that thats your thing and its ok.but its foolish to say that bondservant or anyone else is sinning when you or whyme cant even pull out a scriputure saying so.all you cats are just talking about is "spirit" which is important because we should be Holy Spirit led and if we feel convicted then we should yield.but if there is no sin in drinking a glass of wine or can of beer and there is no conviction and you have no scripture that would state that its sin then PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION OF YOUR ARGUMENT?do you want us to yield to the Holy Spirit.or do you want us to yield to your Conviction?

  9. #109
    Young Bol ministerbj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    brotha get over yourself.puuhhaaalleeezzee.this issue has been discussed before.maybe u missed it.but cats aint saying that you SHOULD drink.but what we are discussing is that some ppl are under the belief that drinking wine or beer is a sin.and knowhere in scripture does it say so.thats the point.if you choose not to drink i think we can all agree that thats your thing and its ok.but its foolish to say that bondservant or anyone else is sinning when you or whyme cant even pull out a scriputure saying so.all you cats are just talking about is "spirit" which is important because we should be Holy Spirit led and if we feel convicted then we should yield.but if there is no sin in drinking a glass of wine or can of beer and there is no conviction and you have no scripture that would state that its sin then PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION OF YOUR ARGUMENT?do you want us to yield to the Holy Spirit.or do you want us to yield to your Conviction?
    present your body a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service.......

    you can be convicted by the Holy Spirit and still don't answer to the conviction. i didn't say drinking was a sin.. but if you claim to be Christ like and if Greater is He that is within you than he that is within the world.. then tell me why not get the satisfaction and pleasure from the one that's in you when it comes to drinking and smoking...and if you place it before God then it's a god... and we know God is not having that...

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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    well why not make that same argument for food?or sex?or tv?or gospel rap?or cake?or ice cream?all these things provide pleasure of some sort.all these things provide statisfaction.your argument is so flawd man.i can easily use that same argument when it comes to sexual relations in a marriage.after all sex provides pleasere and satisfaction.are you gonna tell a married man and woman they are wrong for seeking pleasure and satisfaction through sex?
    plus no one has implied that God doesnt come First.thats you making a flawd argument.scripture has been cited.if thats not putting God first then i dont know what is.and let us remember that scripture outweights a conviction because sometime our convictions are not biblically supported.i used to hate the death penalty.but scripture supports it.so my conviction means nothing.it was never a conviction.it was ignorance of scripture...how is anyone on here making Wine their God?

  11. #111
    HCR Veterano Cyple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ministerbj View Post
    WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

    I came in here expecting to see people talking about the Holy Spirit and once a person gets saved let God clean them up. Only the Righteous shall see God. etc.. some good Holiness stuff... instead i came in here and saw folk talking about drinking beer, and it's ok, how to mix it...etc...

    what are your intentions when drinking beer or wine?
    how much are you consuming?
    did you drink before you got saved?
    do you consider yourself a new creature now that you have accepted Christ and that the old things in your life are passed away?
    have ya'll prayed about drinking beer and should you drink it?

    Deliverance is available to you... (singing)...lol....

    Thank you Son Of Man.. SMH.. HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLY SPIRIT....
    This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Don't add to the scriptures. What do you think that Jesus was drinking at the last supper? The sin is not in the item itself, it is in the person. A gun can be used to help feed your family when it's used correctly. A gun can also be used to kill someone. Should guns be outlawed as for Christians? A couple of drinks a day is actually GOOD for you! How is that damaging your body?

  12. #112
    HCR Veterano apokalum's Avatar
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    Never in my life actually. Don't plan to.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by topherstyles View Post
    Do you?
    "I don't drink beer, last time I did woke up with a pink beard, it was weird man I couldn't think clear, wrote something on my forehead but the ink smeared,"-Cruz Cordero

    On the real, I don't get drunk.

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    Young Bol DJ zilla's Avatar
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    I drink root beer

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    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    i think we can all agree that thats your thing and its ok.but its foolish to say that bondservant or anyone else is sinning when you or whyme cant even pull out a scriputure saying so.all you cats are just talking about is "spirit"
    My argument has been appearance of evil, and that is in the scripture. I'm not "all you cats are just talking about is "spirit"" argument.
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
    WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee

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    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    ummm.....whyme....was wine actually ever consumed in the church?come on now dude.thats a straw right there.come better please.of course no one is gonna bring a alcoholic beverage to church.the purpose of church is for worship/praise and fellowship.not drinking beer or wine.so your argument is flawd.come better buddy.
    If you don't want to answer it that is fine, unless your best argument is, church is for worship/praise. Because in case you haven't notice, people need to hydrate at church. I'm sure Timothy drank wine at his church since he was instructed by Paul to stop drinking water alone because it was making him sick.

    Ok, instead of drinking it, why don't just keep a can of beer in your girl's purse during service so you can drink it later at the park?
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
    WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee

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    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    No , but does alcohol in America have connections to a godless lifestyle? Wouldn't that lifestyle be appearance of evil?


    People bring water bottles in church to drink, why not bring a can of beer to drink in church? Appearance of evil.


    Do you honestly think Jesus would be chillin' with you at a game drinking a Beer?




    No, can you prove it the other way?
    Come on fam, really? You're avoiding the issue. You presuppose that the alcohol back then was diluted without scriptural support and impose it on the text. You have to do that to in order to avoid the inevitable. Without warrant you accuse the Son of God of having the "appearance of evil".

    Do I think Jesus would be chillin' with me at a game drinking beer? It doesn't matter what I think. Cause I could say yes, Neb could say yes, ctide, devin, cyple and cowboy could all say yes, but you, ministerjb, son of man could all say no, and we're back to square one. It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what scripture teaches, and so far, you guys have resorted to empirical arguments and ad hominems. None of you are dealing with the scripts, even though they stare you in the face.

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    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    lastly, let it be known that in standing up for holiness, i never judge christians or anyone. i just live a set apart life and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. i don't need alcohol. not to relax. not to chill. not for anything. the devil is a liar. i have the Holy Spirit which is more than enough to last me until Jesus returns.
    What is this statement all about? Is it necessary for you to feel better about yourself b/c you are set apart and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting? Does the Holy Spirit convict apart from the Word of God? I don't recall people in this thread saying they needed alcohol to relax or chill. They were like it's a way that they do such things but it's not needed. We know the devil is a liar but what does that have to do with the topic? All the people who said they drink have the Holy Spirit as well who is more then enough to last them til the Revelation of Jesus Christ. You are implying so much in this statement it's not even funny. May the Spirit continue to fill you with the Word...


    Eccl. 10:19
    wine gladdens life


    Hail King Jesus,
    seal


    p.s... I drink but rarely if ever. I drink super soft things like mike's Hard Lemonade and stuff like that... Nothing like that sinner Bondservant...LOL... J/K

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    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    Come on fam, really? You're avoiding the issue. You presuppose that the alcohol back then was diluted without scriptural support and impose it on the text. You have to do that to in order to avoid the inevitable. Without warrant you accuse the Son of God of having the "appearance of evil".
    No, I don't accuse Jesus of that at all. If I had time I could probably trace back the culture effect alcohol has had on our culture and other cultures but I believe it would be in vain.

    Do I think Jesus would be chillin' with me at a game drinking beer? It doesn't matter what I think. Cause I could say yes, Neb could say yes, ctide, devin, cyple and cowboy could all say yes, but you, ministerjb, son of man could all say no, and we're back to square one.
    Your right, so this is where I bounce out of this thread in Love. I've made my statements and would be going in circles with future post.

    It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what scripture teaches, and so far, you guys have resorted to empirical arguments and ad hominems.
    What ad hominems have I used against you?

    None of you are dealing with the scripts, even though they stare you in the face.
    Again, my argument is appearance of evil, not if alcohol is evil in itself.
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
    WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee

  20. #120
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    No, I don't accuse Jesus of that at all. If I had time I could probably trace back the culture effect alcohol has had on our culture and other cultures but I believe it would be in vain.
    They would be, because it presupposes and avoids the issue. Because people got drunk then, so what difference does it make?

    What ad hominems have I used against you?
    I said you "guys", including the others, not necessarily you.


    Again, my argument is appearance of evil, not if alcohol is evil in itself.
    But even that's flawed. Especially after the evidence that has been given.

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