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  1. #81
    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    Well, I don't make my arguments based on it being a liberty issue if God's word is clear. I drink vodka, gin, cognac, rum and scotch. Don't get me wrong, it's an occasional thing and I'm not just tossin them back, but I do drink them.

    Here Yahweh encourages its use.

    Deut. 14:26
    and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
    Yo,

    This is soooo beautiful.... Yes.... the way you using that Law to dictate your worldview.... It's truely a thing of beauty....

    God's Law Rules,
    seal

  2. #82
    HCR Veterano Lynaz24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffr0cks View Post
    that's a gay drink is it not?
    Na..That's a Island drink..Mad popular in Cuba and Southern MIA..LOL..What you trying to say..lol

  3. #83
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynaz24 View Post
    Wouldn't that fall into the category of gettin tipsy..I mean to drink for the taste of it is one thing..To drink fermented drinks for the purpose of relaxation, does that open another can o worms..I'm just asking..No beef
    Prov. 31:6-7
    Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
    and wine to those in bitter distress;[a]
    7let them drink and forget their poverty
    and remember their misery no more.

    Eccl. 10:19
    wine gladdens life

  4. #84
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    or a beer with some fried food!

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    BTW:

    don't drink beer out the can or bottle

    pour it into a frozen glass (place glass in freezer 10 mins or more prior)

    hold glass sideways so beer can pour without creating head (foam)

    enjoy!

  6. #86
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    Son of man,

    Here are some examples from scripture.

    God gives wine to Israel as a Covenant Blessing:

    Gen 27:28
    May God give you of the dew of heaven
    and of the fatness of the earth
    and plenty of grain and wine.

    Deut. 7:13
    He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you.


    Deut. 11:14
    He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you.


    Deut.33:28

    28So Israel lived in safety,
    Jacob lived alone,[a]
    in a land of grain and wine,
    whose heavens drop down dew.

    It was also used as an acceptable offering to God

    Num. 15:5-10
    and you shall offer with the burnt offering, or for the sacrifice, a quarter of a hin of wine for the drink offering for each lamb. 6Or for a ram, you shall offer for a grain offering two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with a third of a hin of oil. 7And for the drink offering you shall offer a third of a hin of wine, a pleasing aroma to the LORD. 8And when you offer a bull as a burnt offering or sacrifice, to fulfill a vow or for peace offerings to the LORD, 9then one shall offer with the bull a grain offering of three tenths of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with half a hin of oil. 10And you shall offer for the drink offering half a hin of wine, as a food offering, a pleasing aroma to the LORD.

    Here God encourages it's use

    Deut. 14:26
    and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
    all of those references have to deal with new, unfermented, freshly squeezed grape juice except for deut 14:26. i'll have to get back with ya on that particular scripture.

  7. #87
    Young Bol OrthodoX's Avatar
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    Any thoughts on my post? Do you all think I explain why the Bible (proverbs for example) presents alcohol in a positive and at times a negative light? Obviously alcohol can be used for good or for evil..as all things can be.

    many Christians will say that they "don't judge" those who drink. By saying that they are inferring that drinking is not a good thing to do. Scripture however at times presents alcohol and its use as a good thing, a blessing in fact.

    My pastor, friends from church and I often go out after church for a beer and those times are some of my favorite times of fellowship.

    As far as avoiding the appearance of evil goes...

    what is the biblical standard for evil? Is it really leaving it up to us to decide, or in other words, if someone is under the opinion that what you are doing is evil then you should not do that thing?

    This does not make sense socially or biblically. In some cultures it is considered evil to teach that Jesus is King of the universe. Should we not bring the gosple to these people?

    To avoid the appearance of evil is to avoid evil. To use and enjoy alcohol as God intended is not just "not sin" it is worship.

    Shalom-

    DoX

  8. #88
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    There's nothin like a cold beer after a hard days work. Especially when you get done mowing the yard and your wife hands you a cold one. You pop that top and see that smoke(whatever that is) come out boy ain't nothin like that first swig. It goes down so smooth.
    man, i'm sorry, but for some reason this post had me imaging christian beer commercials in my head.

    I'm thinking Revelation, where the horsemen are coming down on Anheuser Busch Clydesdales...hahaha...

  9. #89
    Young Bol OrthodoX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    man, i'm sorry, but for some reason this post had me imaging christian beer commercials in my head.

    I'm thinking Revelation, where the horsemen are coming down on Anheuser Busch Clydesdales...hahaha...

    ha ha!! not a bad idea.

  10. #90
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrthodoX View Post
    To use and enjoy alcohol as God intended is not just "not sin" it is worship.
    interesting thoughts here:

    http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/rite...d-beer-part-2/

    he refers to wine as an "eschatological drink" because of it's symbolism throughout Scripture. As with any symbol, i think you can take something too far, but he makes a few legit observations here.

  11. #91
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    interesting thoughts here:

    http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/rite...d-beer-part-2/

    he refers to wine as an "eschatological drink" because of it's symbolism throughout Scripture. As with any symbol, i think you can take something too far, but he makes a few legit observations here.
    Wine is often used figuratively as the "wrath of God".

  12. #92
    HCR Ole' Head Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    all of those references have to deal with new, unfermented, freshly squeezed grape juice except for deut 14:26. i'll have to get back with ya on that particular scripture.
    Was that you being serious or not? Those smileys throw me off every time.

    But for real, I'd love to see where you came to that conclusion.

  13. #93
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    all of those references have to deal with new, unfermented, freshly squeezed grape juice except for deut 14:26. i'll have to get back with ya on that particular scripture.
    I'll give you a couple of them that could be "freshly squeezed grape juice", but the one in Numbers isn't. Here it is seen as an acceptable offering to the Lord. Also see Ex. 29:40.

    Melchizedek “brought bread and wine” for Abram and his companions (Gen. 14:18). He blessed them.

    You still have yet to prove that wine today is different from then, and you still haven't proven that we're to abstain from alcohol.

  14. #94
    HCR Ole' Head Deadmanwalking's Avatar
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    I can understand the knee jerk reactions. Satan has intentionally perverted nearly every positive human pleasure. Sex is good. Satan makes the porn industry. Laughter is good, satan makes comedy central (in which the majority of the jokes are perverse). Food is good, satan makes mc Donald's. Alcohol is good, satan makes budweiser and all the other companies. He takes everything, pushes the envelope and encourages excess. Since we all see the negative effect of the excess, we assume that it must be absolutely negative with no possibility of purity.

    Just dropping some more pennies.

  15. #95
    HCR Veterano Jeffr0cks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynaz24 View Post
    Na..That's a Island drink..Mad popular in Cuba and Southern MIA..LOL..What you trying to say..lol
    haha ok. Cuz my friends always tease my other friend cuz he like that stuff. And they always make fun on him because by saying its a gay drink.
    I'm on Facebook and Google+

  16. #96
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    little word study research from BibleWorks 6.0:

    Deuteronomy 14:23-26 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire- oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

    Notice two words – “wine” and “strong drink”.

    Wine comes from the Hebrew yayin. Strong drink is from the word shekar.

    Let’s look at Shekar for a second. According to the lexicons, the word means:

    Whitaker – “intoxicating drink”

    Strong’s – “strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor “

    BDB – “intoxicating drink, strong drink”

    The same two Hebrew words appear together in Is. 28.7:

    Isaiah 28:7 These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed by wine, they stagger with strong drink, they reel in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.

    How does a person stagger with grapejuice?

    In the Septuagint, the greek word they used that is translated as “strong drink” is sikera.

    Friberg – “strong drink, a sweet intoxicating beverage usually made from something other than grapes (e.g. barley beer)”

    UBS – “strong drink”

    Louw-Nida – “an intoxicating drink made from grain - 'beer.”

    Thayer’s – “literally, `intoxicating' drink”

    Folks, they didn’t translate it as “strong drink” for nothing.

    The JPS Tanakh translates it:

    TNK Deuteronomy 14:26 and spend the money on anything you want -- cattle, sheep, wine, or other intoxicant,

    New Jerusalem Bible NJB Deuteronomy 14:26 there you may spend the money on whatever you like, oxen, sheep, wine, fermented liquor, anything you please.

    NIV Deuteronomy 14:26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink

    NET Deuteronomy 14:26 Then you may spend the money however you wish for cattle, sheep, wine, beer, or whatever you desire.

    _______



    Need i say anymore?
    Last edited by king neb; 06-22-2007 at 07:39 PM.

  17. #97
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    I'll give you a couple of them that could be "freshly squeezed grape juice", but the one in Numbers isn't. Here it is seen as an acceptable offering to the Lord. Also see Ex. 29:40.

    Melchizedek “brought bread and wine” for Abram and his companions (Gen. 14:18). He blessed them.

    You still have yet to prove that wine today is different from then, and you still haven't proven that we're to abstain from alcohol.
    yeah, you're right. both numbers 15:5-10 and exodus 29:40 deal with fermented wine. however neither one of those gave instructions to drink them. they were to be used as a drink offering in sacrifice. however, that does bring up the question as to why the Lord would call for such? i'll have to dig a lil deeper into that.

    as far as gen 14:18, you're right again that does deal with fermented wine as well. however the reason why Melchizedek probably brought Abraham fermented wine was b/c in those days there wasn't any refrigeration or any other means to keep grape juice from fermenting. so it would have probably been brought out of circumstance rather than promotion/endorsement.

    concerning deut 14:26, you're right a third time, this was also fermented wine. however, the context has to do with the yearly tithe. isreal would meet at the tabernacle or temple and present their tithes to the Lord (if you don't believe in tithing, you can't use this scripture to support drinking alcohol). the isrealites were instructed to sell their tithes if they lived too far to carry their tithes to the tabernacle or temple. once they got to the feast, they would have used the money to, in effect, purchase the things they sold and then consume them in the presence of the Lord.

    i lack a commentary on deut so i really can't say anything else concerning that verse. it does seem to suggest the use of wine or strong drink once a year and only in the presence of the Lord as an act of worship. but once again, to use such to support drinking socially in moderation is to take that passage out of context.

    now don't misunderstand, when i said that wine today is different from biblical times, i was referring to potency. today much of our wine is stronger than biblical times just as today our strong drink is much stronger than then. a good example is weed. in the 70s many people smoked pot. but the pot today is far more potent b/c of all the extra things they add to it. but on the contrary, much of the wine drunk in biblical days was diluted to prevent intoxication.

    also, i never said that the bible says not to drink alcohol. i said that the bible teaches against it (ie the dangers of drunkeness). now in proverbs 31 the bible says it's not for kings or princes and lk 1 said it wasn't for John. whether or not it's for you is b/w you and the Lord. i already said that just b/c a person drinks doesn't mean they're not a christian.

    but i will caution you that in 1 tim 5, paul had to exhort timothy to drink a lil wine b/c of his stomach. whether or not this is referring to fermented wine or grape juice is not clear. but what is clear is that it was for medicinal purposes rather than him getting his buzz on.

    however, if it is fermented wine being referred, then one may wonder why paul would have to encourage timothy to do so if there wasn't anything wrong with it. could it be possible that timothy refused to give the appearance of evil concerning fermented wine, even at the expense of his stomach? that sounds like love in action. the man of God went without just so he wouldn't cause his brother to stumble.

    along the same lines, i also offered a simple testimony. i gotta stand up for holiness (being set apart unto the Lord). just like john couldn't have the testimony of drinking wine or strong drink, whenever i witness to someone, i refuse to have the smell of alcohol on my breath. the only thing i want catz to smell is the sweet fragrance of Christ and the gospel. i refuse to have my testimony in jeopardy and i refuse to cause a brother to stumble. i won't even have anyone saying they saw me at the store purchasing alcohol. i gotta come from amoung them and be separate. separate in speech AND behavior.

    lastly, let it be known that in standing up for holiness, i never judge christians or anyone. i just live a set apart life and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. i don't need alcohol. not to relax. not to chill. not for anything. the devil is a liar. i have the Holy Spirit which is more than enough to last me until Jesus returns.

  18. #98
    HCR Ole' Head Cowboy's Avatar
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    Hey, everyone's got their own convictions and personal views, and I respect that of ya. Do what God is telling you to do.

    Your arguments though, above, are not strong. You're having to stretch the Word more than anyone who's claiming that it's not alcohol that's wrong, but being drunk. Plus, you're stretching it to try and show that it was "grape juice" and not alcoholic.

    "as far as gen 14:18, you're right again that does deal with fermented wine as well. however the reason why Melchizedek probably brought Abraham fermented wine was b/c in those days there wasn't any refrigeration or any other means to keep grape juice from fermenting. so it would have probably been brought out of circumstance rather than promotion/endorsement."


    Seriously? Come on. That's quite a stretch. Wouldn't it have mentioned that if we were to not think of it as "wine"?

    "now don't misunderstand, when i said that wine today is different from biblical times, i was referring to potency. today much of our wine is stronger than biblical times just as today our strong drink is much stronger than then. a good example is weed. in the 70s many people smoked pot. but the pot today is far more potent b/c of all the extra things they add to it. but on the contrary, much of the wine drunk in biblical days was diluted to prevent intoxication."

    How do you know the potency of wine back then? Weed is only a partially good example. My dad did drugs in the 70's, and if you listen to Dennis Leary or Robin Williams from the 80's, they'll tell you about the junk they used to put in weed. It was just as laced then as it is now. What happens now is people adding different chemicals. But, I'd really like to see your basis for believing that wine is more potent now than then. Plus, one of your points was that the wine we were referring to was "grape juice" and not alcoholic at all.

    "but i will caution you that in 1 tim 5, paul had to exhort timothy to drink a lil wine b/c of his stomach. whether or not this is referring to fermented wine or grape juice is not clear. but what is clear is that it was for medicinal purposes rather than him getting his buzz on.

    however, if it is fermented wine being referred, then one may wonder why paul would have to encourage timothy to do so if there wasn't anything wrong with it. could it be possible that timothy refused to give the appearance of evil concerning fermented wine, even at the expense of his stomach? that sounds like love in action. the man of God went without just so he wouldn't cause his brother to stumble."


    Look into how wine affects your health and if grape juice is as good. Check into that for yourself and see what you find. And your second part doesn't make sense. Cause if there was something wrong with it, get this, Paul would not have encouraged it. Paul was encouraging Timothy because Timothy was like his son. Fatherly advice. There's no basis for believing that Timothy refused wine or that he abstained so a brother wouldn't stumble. That's bad hermeneutics my friend.


    Again, on your personal convictions, I respect that. But leave it at that and don't stretch scripture to try and support your claims. Let it be.

  19. #99
    HCR Veterano Cyple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynaz24 View Post
    Wouldn't that fall into the category of gettin tipsy..I mean to drink for the taste of it is one thing..To drink fermented drinks for the purpose of relaxation, does that open another can o worms..I'm just asking..No beef
    I'm mainly talking about getting relaxed after a hard days work. I think though if you are drinking for the taste then you should be careful that you don't drink yourself into a stupor.

  20. #100
    HCR Veterano topherstyles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking View Post
    I can understand the knee jerk reactions. Satan has intentionally perverted nearly every positive human pleasure. <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Sex&v=55">Sex</a> is good. Satan makes the porn industry. Laughter is good, satan makes comedy central (in which the majority of the <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=jokes&v=55">jokes</a> are perverse). <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Food&v=55">Food</a> is good, satan makes mc Donald's. Alcohol is good, satan makes budweiser and all the other companies. He takes everything, pushes the envelope and encourages excess. Since we all see the negative effect of the excess, we assume that it must be absolutely negative with no possibility of purity.

    Just dropping some more pennies.
    ROTFL!!!!! SATAN MADE MC DONALDS!!!!!!


    So am I wrong if I say------pass the coverseir!!!!!! EVERBODY SING IT NOW!!!!!!

    LOL! J/k!

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