Do you drink beer?

[BondServant]

Biblically, you did the right thing by not drinking in front of them. I agree that it would have harmed your witness greatly. I don't think anyone has endorsed drinking in the company of unbelievers or struggling Christians.

I'd drink in front of an unbeliever. I wouldn't do it in front of struggling Christian, but I don't see why I can't drink in front of someone else. The Messiah was out in public drinking. The people of Israel were in public drinking.

[BondServant]

I don't drink beer, I find the taste disgusting

Isn't it forbidden in SDA?

[Cowboy]

given all the scriptures against drunkeness, i would conclude otherwise. if we assume that the guests were already well drunken by the time they ran out of wine, then Jesus turning water into even more alcohol would cause Jesus to support drunkeness, which we know isn't true.

besides, we didn't have any alcohol at our wedding and we enjoyed ourself and had a good time. we made toasts with sparkling grape juice

Not all the guests were drunk, but, the person actually used the example that the better wine was brought out first normally, and then once they were drunk(inferring that they could get drunk off the better wine) they would normally serve the cheap wine. But that doesn't mean that Jesus would be supporting getting drunk. That would be like saying, if God leads a woman into my life, that he's supporting me fornicating with her. Extreme example? Not really. Everything can be abused and done in excess, whether it's drinking, smoking, our relationship with the opposite sex. God's intention is never to encourage sin, but we have to choose not to sin in the situation we're in.

That's cool that you had a nice wedding. I've been in about 10, and I've been to both kind. Both can be fun. But it is annoying when there's those who go overboard with the drinking. But I am seriously glad a great wedding, that is definitely a special event and should be enjoyed.

I still claim though, that until proven otherwise, the wine that's referred to in Jesus' time and throughout most of the Bible is not juice. It's wine.

[Gloria]

below is a link to a dope sermon on the "water into wine" miracle

http://sgcitychurch.org/pages/index.php?pID=495

click the link and scroll down to:

2/25/2007 Toby Kurth "Lord and Servant" John 2:1-11 MP3

*listening*

[son of man]

Can you prove this?

look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

[Gloria]

I'd drink in front of an unbeliever. I wouldn't do it in front of struggling Christian, but I don't see why I can't drink in front of someone else. The Messiah was out in public drinking. The people of Israel were in public drinking.

That's cool...I just don't know that I would. I have in the past, but I don't think I would in the future. Keep in mind, though that I don't even drink like that. My last drink was last December and before that 2003....so yeah.

[Gloria]

look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

huh?

[BondServant]

look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

What does that prove?

The greek for wine in the wedding account is the same greek word Paul used when he told the ephesians to not be drunk with wine. They are the same greek words. How can you be drunk of off unfermented wine.

And can you exegetically prove that the wine in the wedding was unfermented?

[Cowboy]

look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

No, you can't compare "new" to recently born and unfermented. It's clear that the wine given to the guests could've made them drunk. That's not a very strong argument for what you're saying. Didn't you just point out that the two words for wine were the same in both passages in luke, and that it was referring to strong drink(aka fermented). And then you say it was unfermented because it didn't have time to ferment? Wouldn't it be more of a miracle to create something that had fermented?

[son of man]

son of man,

this is an empiricial argument and thus a weak one. here's why: for every experience you give, i can counter it with 10 experiences of how drinking alcohol with someone produced good.

One example: my father-in-law

My father-in-law supposedly "accepted Christ" after being visited by an evangelism team from my old southern baptist church. the first thing they told him he had to do in order to join the church was stop drinking beer and stop smoking. He asked why? They said, "those acts are sinful and these are the rules of our church." no bible. it didn't make sense to him.

He left, and it left a sore spot between him and 'Church' ever since...it was hard to get him to talk about spiritual matters....until thanksgiving at my house around 5 years ago. We sat down for a meal, i prayed (much to the displeasure of my atheist mother-in-law) and immediately after the prayer, i walked over to him and handed him a Corona.

it completely floored him and it ended up with us having a very good conversation about morality/ethics and the standard for such. It completely floored my atheist mother-in-law as well. She was the woman who once threatened me if i ever brought up the name of Jesus in front of her....she now asks about my speaking engagements and reads articles on my site and we have mature, calm, profitable discussion.

One beer completely broke down some barriers we had - barriers caused by unbiblical laws. And i have heard TONS of these kinds of testimonies.

So, where does that empirical argument get us now?

yo neb, i'm not saying good things can't come from this or that. i'm talking about standing up for holiness like a prophet of God should. we're talking about the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. my message isn't it's ok to drink as long as you do it in moderation. my message is i've got something that's better than any alcoholic beverage could provide (eph 5).

[son of man]

What does that prove?

The greek for wine in the wedding account is the same greek word Paul used when he told the ephesians to not be drunk with wine. They are the same greek words. How can you be drunk of off unfermented wine.

And can you exegetically prove that the wine in the wedding was unfermented?

i think you're misunderstanding what i'm trying to say. i'm saying that in the greek, the word translated wine can refer to fermented OR unfermented grape juice. i'm saying that the way you distinguish which is which is by the context.

[BondServant]

yo neb, i'm not saying good things can't come from this or that. i'm talking about standing up for holiness like a prophet of God should. we're talking about the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. my message isn't it's ok to drink as long as you do it in moderation. my message is i've got something that's better than any alcoholic beverage could provide (eph 5).

How does that prove that one shouldn't drink? Okay, everyone here agrees that Christ is better than all that. He's better than sex, should I stop having sex with my wife? He's better than food, should I stop eating? Christ, THE HOLY ONE, drank wine. Yahweh gave alcohol as a covenant blessing to Israel.

So who's more holy, you because you abstain from alcohol, or Jesus the Christ, who was accused of being a winebibber?

[king neb]

yo neb, i'm not saying good things can't come from this or that. i'm talking about standing up for holiness like a prophet of God should. we're talking about the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. my message isn't it's ok to drink as long as you do it in moderation. my message is i've got something that's better than any alcoholic beverage could provide (eph 5).

son of man,

now you're changing topics. No one here is arguing for the superiority of beer over Jesus. That would be insane.

Let's get back to your assertion that wine was not the same as it is today. You have not proven this. You've done everything but prove this from Scripture.

[BondServant]

i think you're misunderstanding what i'm trying to say. i'm saying that in the greek, the word translated wine can refer to fermented OR unfermented grape juice. i'm saying that the way you distinguish which is which is by the context.

I read you loud and clear fam. That's why I asked how could you come to that conclusion about the wine at Cana exegetically? Nothing in the texts gives you the right to say it was unfermented, you have to read that into the text.

The word in question is oinos, a dynamic equivalent for yayin(OT). It appears 140 times in the OT, and it always refers to alcoholic beverages. Same as with Oinos. You can't get drunk off of grape juice.

As for your luke passages. How do you get from the context that this wasn't actual wine? The greek for new there is "kainos" meaning fresh. Where do you get unfermented from this word? Sometimes when I don't drink the wine from weeks before, it sits and gets bad, so I pour it out and go get some new wine, fresh new wine.

Now, how can you prove from the context that oinos here is unfermented wine?

[son of man]

son of man,

now you're changing topics. No one here is arguing for the superiority of beer over Jesus. That would be insane.

Let's get back to your assertion that wine was not the same as it is today. You have not proven this. You've done everything but prove this from Scripture.

i didn't give the testimony to show that Jesus is better than beer. i wanted that brother to understand that if you have the Holy Spirit, you don't need to drink. back in the gap alcohol was called "spirits" and for good reason. nowadays Christians have the ability to be baptized with the HOly Spirit. he needed to see that being filled with the Holy Spirit was way better than being filled with "spirits". that wouldn't have been possible had I handed him a Corona.

[djHeir]

Here's another excellent sermon about Christian liberty that fits very well with this discussion. I highly recommend it:
http://journey.monkcms.net/sermon/christian-liberty

[phil]

yo SOM

do you eat cake? read back your argument and switch the words beer/wine with cake/ice cream.

change the works "drink" to read "eat sweets" and change the words "drunk" to "glutton"

it doesnt make sense, and neither does your argument

agree, John the Baptised didnt drink... but Jesus did

you can drink and be a holy prophet, JESUS DID!!!!!!!!!!! are you saying ou are holier then Jesus? are you saying "avoiding alcohole is better then Jesus"????

i think the lack of example of drinking in moderation has caused just as many or more people to fall into abuse of alcohole, then drinking in moderation

the false laws imposed on people are legalistic and not of God, read the bible!

holiness is living by the standards of God, not the standards of man

do you know way over weight christians??? that is equal to drunk christians

both equally sinful.....


do you know christians that eat cake? that is equal to christians that drink

both innocent

[king neb]

well, again son of man, no one here is arguing that you "NEED" to drink. I'm not saying that. Bondservant is not saying that. NO ONE is saying that.

What we are asking of you is to support your claim that wine was not the same as it is today - plain and simple.

[phil]

i didn't give the testimony to show that Jesus is better than beer. i wanted that brother to understand that if you have the Holy Spirit, you don't need to drink. back in the gap alcohol was called "spirits" and for good reason. nowadays Christians have the ability to be baptized with the HOly Spirit. he needed to see that being filled with the Holy Spirit was way better than being filled with "spirits". that wouldn't have been possible had I handed him a Corona.

you dont need to drink AMEN!!!! you dont need to eat cake

lol @ the "spirits" comment SMH... i hope you dont drink sprite... i hope you dont use MS Word

yo, miller lite in hand and bible in lap... my favorite combo!

[son of man]

I read you loud and clear fam. That's why I asked how could you come to that conclusion about the wine at Cana exegetically? Nothing in the texts gives you the right to say it was unfermented, you have to read that into the text.

The word in question is oinos, a dynamic equivalent for yayin(OT). It appears 140 times in the OT, and it always refers to alcoholic beverages. Same as with Oinos. You can't get drunk off of grape juice.

As for your luke passages. How do you get from the context that this wasn't actual wine? The greek for new there is "kainos" meaning fresh. Where do you get unfermented from this word? Sometimes when I don't drink the wine from weeks before, it sits and gets bad, so I pour it out and go get some new wine, fresh new wine.

Now, how can you prove from the context that oinos here is unfermented wine?

from my understanding of the fermentation process, the reason why you put "new" wine into new wine skins was so when it eventually did ferment, the new wine skins would have room to stretch out.

you wouldn't put "new" wine that wasn't fermented into old wineskins b/c whenever the fermentation process began the old skins (which were already stretched out due to fermentation) would have stretched out even more causing them to burst.

the fact of the matter is that in the greek, there aren't seperate words for unfermented and fermented wine. there isn't a greek word for boone's farm and another one for welches. you just have the same word used to describe both. therefore depending on the context, you make conclusions as to which one is referred to. that's sorta unfortunate and causes much confusion. however, that's a natural limitation of the greek language.