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  1. #181
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    I thought about something. Dealing with the appearance of evil argument.

    The Lemonade you ordered looks just like a Tom Collins.

    That Coke you ordered looks like a Coke and Rum.

    That Pink Lemonade looks like a mixed drink.

    That OJ you ordered looks like Gin and Juice.

    You think you're safe by ordering water, but somebody may think you're an alcoholic drinking straight vodka.

    There's no escaping, dun dun dun, the appearance of eeeeeviiiiil.

  2. #182
    Young Bol OrthodoX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrthodoX View Post
    Any thoughts on my post? Do you all think I explain why the Bible (proverbs for example) presents alcohol in a positive and at times a negative light? Obviously alcohol can be used for good or for evil..as all things can be.

    many Christians will say that they "don't judge" those who drink. By saying that they are inferring that drinking is not a good thing to do. Scripture however at times presents alcohol and its use as a good thing, a blessing in fact.

    My pastor, friends from church and I often go out after church for a beer and those times are some of my favorite times of fellowship.

    As far as avoiding the appearance of evil goes...

    what is the biblical standard for evil? Is it really leaving it up to us to decide, or in other words, if someone is under the opinion that what you are doing is evil then you should not do that thing?

    This does not make sense socially or biblically. In some cultures it is considered evil to teach that Jesus is King of the universe. Should we not bring the gosple to these people?

    To avoid the appearance of evil is to avoid evil. To use and enjoy alcohol as God intended is not just "not sin" it is worship.

    Shalom-

    DoX
    I have yet a response to my explaination for why alcohol is sometimes in the negative light scripturally, and what is meant by avoiding the appearence of evil.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    I thought about something. Dealing with the appearance of evil argument.

    The Lemonade you ordered looks just like a Tom Collins.

    That Coke you ordered looks like a Coke and Rum.

    That Pink Lemonade looks like a mixed drink.

    That OJ you ordered looks like Gin and Juice.

    You think you're safe by ordering water, but somebody may think you're an alcoholic drinking straight vodka.

    There's no escaping, dun dun dun, the appearance of eeeeeviiiiil.
    the issue with the "appearance of evil" argument is even deeper then that!

    they are assuming that alcohol is evil, if i am talking normal and walking straight, i don't appear drunk! holding a beer, doesn't give the appearance of evil... it gives the appearance of something wrongly labeled evil.

    for that matter, girls wearing pants appears evil to some people... but that does not fall under the appearance of evil scriptural principal.

  4. #184
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    "Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever."

    No i didn't. I 'put down' Christians who think that they would improve upon their witness to non-believers by calling something sin God doesn't call sin.

    Granted, i may have misunderstood Cyples' question. Maybe he can clarify it some.

    He specifically said to imagine that you are witnessing to a non-believer who drinks moderately. Now, why in the world would i "prohibit alcohol" as an attempt to improve upon my witness when the non-believer himself is doing something that is not "sinful" and he himself probably doesn't view as "evil"? that doesn't make any sense.

    You misunderstood me. I did not nor would i ever put down a Christian for not drinking alcohol. I will call a person out though for referring to it as a sin and questioning the maturity of those who do drink, as has been done on this thread.
    Last edited by king neb; 06-25-2007 at 04:58 PM.

  5. #185
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    For those who drink regularly, do you believe that all Christians who drink regularly meet God's standard of not getting drunk, not being a stumblingblock, not having appearance of evil? If the answer to the question is no, what is the difference(or examples of differences) between those who meet God's standard and those who don't?

  6. #186
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    I thought about something. Dealing with the appearance of evil argument.

    The Lemonade you ordered looks just like a Tom Collins.

    That Coke you ordered looks like a Coke and Rum.

    That Pink Lemonade looks like a mixed drink.

    That OJ you ordered looks like Gin and Juice.

    You think you're safe by ordering water, but somebody may think you're an alcoholic drinking straight vodka.

    There's no escaping, dun dun dun, the appearance of eeeeeviiiiil.

    That is why Christians should only drink water.
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
    WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee

  7. #187
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    "Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever."

    No i didn't. I 'put down' Christians who think that they would improve upon their witness to non-believers by calling something sin God doesn't call sin.

    Granted, i may have misunderstood Cyples' question. Maybe he can clarify it some.

    He specifically said to imagine that you are witnessing to a non-believer who drinks moderately. Now, why in the world would i "prohibit alcohol" as an attempt to improve upon my witness when the non-believer himself is doing something that is not "sinful" and he himself probably doesn't view as "evil"? that doesn't make any sense.

    You misunderstood me. I did not nor would i ever put down a Christian for not drinking alcohol. I will call a person out though for referring to it as a sin and questioning the maturity of those who do drink, as has been done on this thread.
    OK cool, I understand your position better.
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  9. #189
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctide View Post
    they are assuming that alcohol is evil
    Umm no, that has never been my argument for the "appearance of evil". Please reread what I have posted already on the appearance of evil and you will see your comment is incorrect.
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
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  10. #190
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    why, i know you dont intend on that... but that is how it boils down

    if not, how then does it look evil?

    if i am completely in control of my body, how does drinking a beer appear evil? Since, it does not appear as though I am drunk.

    Rather, you are saying moderate consumption is incorrectly "thought of as being evil". Not "drinking moderately has the appearance of evil"

    Since HHH is thought of as evil, and if yuo are speeding by it sounds like secular hip hop... should you stop listening to it?
    Last edited by phil; 06-25-2007 at 05:19 PM.

  11. #191
    HCR Veterano Cyple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    "Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever."

    No i didn't. I 'put down' Christians who think that they would improve upon their witness to non-believers by calling something sin God doesn't call sin.

    Granted, i may have misunderstood Cyples' question. Maybe he can clarify it some.

    He specifically said to imagine that you are witnessing to a non-believer who drinks moderately. Now, why in the world would i "prohibit alcohol" as an attempt to improve upon my witness when the non-believer himself is doing something that is not "sinful" and he himself probably doesn't view as "evil"? that doesn't make any sense.

    You misunderstood me. I did not nor would i ever put down a Christian for not drinking alcohol. I will call a person out though for referring to it as a sin and questioning the maturity of those who do drink, as has been done on this thread.
    Nope you answered it perfectly. I brought it up because I would be convicted if I told someone that drinking alcohol is a sin. I would have no problem telling them they would need to abstain if they had a problem with alcohol.

  12. #192
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctide View Post
    Yo Son of Man,

    this is said in humility.. but your ignorance of wine is made clear in that next to last post!

    you said "distilled" you dont distill wine

    wine and beer and ale, are natural fermented drinks

    distilled drinks are liquor and that is restricted from normal grocery stores (you can only get that stuff in ABC stores ... at least in NC)

    perhaps our wine is slightly stronger, because of stronger yeasts found and used, but we are talking going from maybe 18% to 20-22% alcohole by volume

    famo, our SOME!!! wine maybe have a SLIGHTLY higher level of alcohole... but mostly its very close... and the rule of thumb there would be... drink SLIGHTLY less or ALOT less then if it was lower levels of alcohole

    the LAW restricts getting DRUNK!!! not drinking "good or strong wine"

    honestly, SOM... i appreciate your zeal for holiness!!! I really do, I do believe you want to please the lord and concecrate yourself before him

    I also believe the amish are truely trying to please the lord, as are the orthodox jews and nuns up in convents with black head peices

    and i also believe God is pleased when folks who love him, seperate themself for him by denying themselves. but you and the amish and the nuns all got a misunderstanding of God's rules and are wrongly applying your man made rules on others.

    Holiness before the Lord is the most important thing, I lead a holy life... I constantly tell my youth group to live holy lives.... I tell them to avoid temptation and teach on how to confront and destroy sin in their lives and how to approach a brother in sin. Restoring people to God.... keeping impure thoughts out of your mind and heart... ect

    Holiness is so vital!!!! You and I agree here. You are just misunderstanding on the fact that wine and fermented drink in moderation is part of our blessed life and comes from God and is not seperate from a holy life.

    Please in prayer and holiness search the BIBLE, not the american church (which rebuke moderate alcohole, yet tolerates gluttony, divorce and compromise in sexual impurity... "as long as they are gonna get married" type junk)

    seek the bible, do a word study, EXEGITE what the word "wine" actually means (dont assume your pastor is correct... dont assume I or Bondservant are correct) study to find out on your own

    get you a concordance & see what wine really refers to... wikipedia what levels of alcohole is in our COMMON modern wine verse ancient wine..... they have certain wines made from superyeasts which increase the levels some... but is probably not what Bond, Neb, Myself, ect... drink

    I pray you will grow in your understanding of God's blessings, freedom, and moral restrictions in your study.

    Grace and peace fam!

    feel free to hit me up on email

    ctidemusic@hotmail.com
    what's good ctide? i appreciate the manner in which you responded and i'll try to extend that same spirit of kindness and gentleness to you.

    i'm not an expert on wine by any stretch of the imagination. but there is a such thing as a wine distillery. from my limited understanding, distilled alcohol is sometimes refered to as 'burnt wine'. now i have no problem accepting the stats you gave concerning the alcohol content of wine today.

    however, keep in mind that the wine you buy today is consumed in the same manner it's packaged (straight to the dome sort to speak) whereas wine in biblical days was often dilluted with water to prevent intoxication. but honestly, the more i understand you guys position, the less that matters (as BondServant pointed out) b/c you feel you have the liberty to partake of any alcohol as long as it's done in moderation.

    now for some reason you placed me in a box with the amish, claiming that i apply my man made rules on others? i don't believe at one time in this thread i ever forced my personal convictions on anyone. on the contrary, i've been specifically targeted as one who needs to abandon his beliefs and convictions. in my very first post i said the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit drinking alcohol. i said it warns against it. and in this thread i've simply been warning against it. i've said countless times that i don't judge people for what they do. i've said that's b/w them and the Lord. for some reason i feel as though catz been misunderstanding me and putting words in my mouth.

    you invited me to do a word study on the word 'wine' which is exactly what i've been encouraging catz to do for themselves...lol. but for the sake of anybody who cares, i'll do a simple one:

    in the NT, the greek word for 'wine' (like Bondservant pointed out) is oinos. it's strongs number 3631 designated as a primary word (or perhaps of hebrew origin [3196] defined simply as 'wine' (how helpful huh?). strongs doesn't say much but then again he does. he's not entirely sure what to do with this greek word. but he leans toward it being a primary word vs being derived from hebrew origin.

    nowhere in his definition does he say anything about fermentation. however, if you look up his reference of 3196 which is one of the hebrew words translated 'wine' in the OT he's more detailed:

    yayin; from an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication. strongs clearly shows that he's able to classify wine as being fermented whenever he sees fit. but in the case of the greek #3196, he's not entirely convinced so he's more ambiguous. so let's get a second opinion...

    vine's defines the same greek word oinos as the general word for wine. and says the mention of the bursting of the wineskins, matt. 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37, implies fermentation. vines doesn't say the word in and of itself means fermented wine. he merely argues that the context of certain passages imply fermentation, which is exactly what i've been saying all along.

    i don't care whether or not a person argues that a given context suggests fermentation. i only care that they examine the context and come to their own conclusion. i just wanted catz to take the time to know what some of the issues were before blindly assuming that just b/c it's translated 'wine' it means alcohol.

    i could give many other definitions from scholars who take matters even further but i've chosen to stick with two pretty conservative ones who many christians have access to. even these leave room for what i've been saying about how wine can refer to fermented or unfermented drink. if you're not personally convinced, that's fine. this is just my humble attempt to let cats see there's 2 sides on every coin.

  13. #193
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    You are not reasoning from the scriptures and you are confused about Christ b/c Christ says that he drinks.

    Matthew 11:16-19

    16"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,
    17"'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
    we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
    18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."


    What do you think he says he's drinking cookie??? It can't be water b/c them accussing him of being a drunkard would make no sense. I think you need to start considering that you are beyond the scriptures right now and in showing clear personal convictions. It's really not called for and you need to consult your Pastor or Elder on this matter. B/c you are clearly in error as shown by everyone on here but you refuse to accept correction. So I suggest that's where you go.

    Hail King Jesus,
    seal
    Seal, the scriptures aren't always as black and white as you make them out to be my friend. in matt. 11 Jesus doesn't explicitly tell us He drank alcohol. now granted the context could suggest that he drank alcohol so your interpretation is valid. however, it's not the only interpretation that exists.

    the pharisees accusing Jesus of being a drunk, no more means that He drank alcohol than them accusing Him of casting out devils by beelzebub means that He was a sorceror. keep in mind that these were people who hated Him with a passion and refused to accept Him due to unbelief.

    in that passage Jesus was saying that regardless of how God revealed Himself to them, they would continue to come up with unwarranted accusations and ways to find fault. that's sorta like whenever christians try to dialogue with other believers and fail to find grace regardless of how they present themselves.

    i argue that the pharisees called Jesus a drunk, not b/c they saw him drink alcohol but b/c they were by nature envious, jealous and unbelieving. if you don't agree with that interpretation that's fine. but please don't accuse me of going beyond the scriptures just b/c i choose to travel beyond your interpretation. the fact that you had to ask me what i believe Jesus drank shows the grey area associated with this particular scripture. personally, i think it was grape juice.

    but seriously fam, i'd still love to build with you more on the subject. i'm looking forward to that empathy you promised me earlier. do you have any insight into why God demanded alcoholic wine to be used as a drink offering? or why he told israel they could buy alcohol in regards to their tithe? do you believe that alcohol is an acceptable form of worship today?

  14. #194
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    That is why Christians should only drink water.
    psst...hey...WhyMe, read that post again, water looks like Vodka. You can't get away with anything.

    "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God"

    I'll drink to that!

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    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    psst...hey...WhyMe, read that post again, water looks like Vodka. You can't get away with anything.

    "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God"

    I'll drink to that!
    I was just joking. I don't really believe that.


    Serious question though, how does one who drink, decide the difference between "getting buzzed", "tipsy", and Drunk? When you guys drink do you get buzzed? What is the line? How does the bible define drunk?
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
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  16. #196
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    I was just joking. I don't really believe that.
    I know you don't. I was just saying that because you and others argue for appearance of evil, that it's impossible, because all non-alcoholic drinks can look like alcoholic drinks.


    Serious question though, how does one who drink, decide the difference between "getting buzzed", "tipsy", and Drunk? When you guys drink do you get buzzed? What is the line? How does the bible define drunk?
    I get buzzes. There is no definition to tipsy in scripture.

    As far as being drunk, most the examples are of cats been wasted or hammered. Noah and Lot for example. Them dudes were far past that of being drunk. Noah was laid out naked(I guess his stuff wasn't so diluted with water as some here have suggested). Lot was so wasted that his own daughters had sex with him(2 nights in a row), and he had no clue. That's some pretty heavy drinking. And the other times would be drunkards, alcoholics. Those who get drunk and then in the morning go looking for some more yak. They make a habit out of it.

    But we do find that God has encouraged it's use, and in some circumstances in large amounts(but that's debatable), and it was used to make life merry.
    Last edited by BondServant; 06-26-2007 at 11:34 AM.

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    HCR Ole' Head Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    Seal, the scriptures aren't always as black and white as you make them out to be my friend. in matt. 11 Jesus doesn't explicitly tell us He drank alcohol. now granted the context could suggest that he drank alcohol so your interpretation is valid. however, it's not the only interpretation that exists.

    the pharisees accusing Jesus of being a drunk, no more means that He drank alcohol than them accusing Him of casting out devils by beelzebub means that He was a sorceror. keep in mind that these were people who hated Him with a passion and refused to accept Him due to unbelief.

    in that passage Jesus was saying that regardless of how God revealed Himself to them, they would continue to come up with unwarranted accusations and ways to find fault. that's sorta like whenever christians try to dialogue with other believers and fail to find grace regardless of how they present themselves.

    i argue that the pharisees called Jesus a drunk, not b/c they saw him drink alcohol but b/c they were by nature envious, jealous and unbelieving. if you don't agree with that interpretation that's fine. but please don't accuse me of going beyond the scriptures just b/c i choose to travel beyond your interpretation. the fact that you had to ask me what i believe Jesus drank shows the grey area associated with this particular scripture. personally, i think it was grape juice.

    but seriously fam, i'd still love to build with you more on the subject. i'm looking forward to that empathy you promised me earlier. do you have any insight into why God demanded alcoholic wine to be used as a drink offering? or why he told israel they could buy alcohol in regards to their tithe? do you believe that alcohol is an acceptable form of worship today?
    But that doesn't make sense. You're forgetting the part of the scripture where JESUS points out that John didn't drink.....so, stop there and ask what John didn't drink. Grape Juice? And it isn't logical to think that they'd call Him a drunkard if He only drank grape juice, just because they were jealous or envious. That makes no sense and wouldn't have to be even acknowledged. I think what Seal was getting at is that you're the one interpreting the scripture more to fit what you already believe than anyone else is. Study out hermeneutics, figure some of that stuff out. I challenge you to go and read something NOT written by a Christian about the "wine" and "grape juice" of those days. And read something by Christians who maybe have a differing view than you, and see what you come up with.

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    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    But that doesn't make sense. You're forgetting the part of the scripture where JESUS points out that John didn't drink.....so, stop there and ask what John didn't drink. Grape Juice? And it isn't logical to think that they'd call Him a drunkard if He only drank grape juice, just because they were jealous or envious. That makes no sense and wouldn't have to be even acknowledged. I think what Seal was getting at is that you're the one interpreting the scripture more to fit what you already believe than anyone else is. Study out hermeneutics, figure some of that stuff out. I challenge you to go and read something NOT written by a Christian about the "wine" and "grape juice" of those days. And read something by Christians who maybe have a differing view than you, and see what you come up with.
    Cowboy, with all due respect, catz have been takin shots at me and calling me out this entire thread. i don't mind building with you or anybody else but the references concerning me and hermeneutics have to stop. i'm not trying to push my interpretation of scripture over on anybody else. i haven't been dogmatic in any of my reasoning concerning scripture. i'm simply offering a different perspective.

    if you disagree...cool. if you have questions...cool. but don't make it seem like i'm pullin stuff outta thin air. if you want to know what John didn't drink consult numbers 6:1-4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    Cowboy, with all due respect, catz have been takin shots at me and calling me out this entire thread. i don't mind building with you or anybody else but the references concerning me and hermeneutics have to stop. i'm not trying to push my interpretation of scripture over on anybody else. i haven't been dogmatic in any of my reasoning concerning scripture. i'm simply offering a different perspective.

    if you disagree...cool. if you have questions...cool. but don't make it seem like i'm pullin stuff outta thin air. if you want to know what John didn't drink consult numbers 6:1-4.
    I'm not calling you out or taking shots at you. I suggested some things. It's not personal. People can offer different perspectives all they want, that's fine. But if it's still not lining up with scripture or logic, then the principle being relayed is going to get called out. Not you. Like I've said in a number of posts, that's good for you that you don't drink. That's all gravy. I have no issue there. But you were asked to prove with scripture that the wine was different back then, and you haven't. I don't think you're pulling stuff out of thin air, I just think it comes down to a misinterpretation. That's not a diss on you, or a shot at you. I'm not the one looking to see what it is John drank, but determining what Jesus drank. So, aside from the Pharisees being envious and jealous of Jesus, what makes you believe that Jesus being called a drunkard came from his drinking of grape juice? If you're done with the convo, that's fine, I didn't mean to upset you, as I'm not dealing with you as a person, but a mindset and a difference in interpretation of scripture.
    Last edited by Cowboy; 06-26-2007 at 04:00 PM.

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    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    I know you don't. I was just saying that because you and others argue for appearance of evil, that it's impossible, because all non-alcoholic drinks can look like alcoholic drinks.




    I get buzzes. There is no definition to tipsy in scripture.

    As far as being drunk, most the examples are of cats been wasted or hammered. Noah and Lot for example. Them dudes were far past that of being drunk. Noah was laid out naked(I guess his stuff wasn't so diluted with water as some here have suggested). Lot was so wasted that his own daughters had sex with him(2 nights in a row), and he had no clue. That's some pretty heavy drinking. And the other times would be drunkards, alcoholics. Those who get drunk and then in the morning go looking for some more yak. They make a habit out of it.

    But we do find that God has encouraged it's use, and in some circumstances in large amounts(but that's debatable), and it was used to make life merry.
    Cool, thanks for the answer. (I don't like that the main happy face has eyebrows)
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
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