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  1. #121
    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    hmm...well im still in disagreement over the "apperance of evil" argument Whyme.but if thats your opinion or conviction then its all gravy.im just not seeing how me buying a bottle of wine would make a non believer look at me funny.after all...its the non believer that sold it to me anyway.

  2. #122
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    They would be, because it presupposes and avoids the issue. Because people got drunk then, so what difference does it make?
    Getting drunk has been recorded since Noah, so I am not arguing culture's getting drunk. However, physical abuse, broken homes, lost of lives is something that our American culture can blame on the effects of alcohol. I'm sure it has happened through out history of our world, but(of course I would have to write a paper with resources to prove it) today in America significantly worse.

    Men in America hit their wives because their drunk, Men in the middle east hit their wives because they think that is their right.

    Ok, i'm off to sea world!!

    In Love,

    WhyMe
    I donít deserve it, Iím worthless, but treated as perfect
    I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
    I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
    WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee

  3. #123
    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    ok.so your point is.......?

  4. #124
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    Getting drunk has been recorded since Noah, so I am not arguing culture's getting drunk. However, physical abuse, broken homes, lost of lives is something that our American culture can blame on the effects of alcohol. I'm sure it has happened through out history of our world, but(of course I would have to write a paper with resources to prove it) today in America significantly worse.

    Men in America hit their wives because their drunk, Men in the middle east hit their wives because they think that is their right.

    Ok, i'm off to sea world!!

    In Love,

    WhyMe
    empirical argument.

    People abuse sex, men in America hit their wives when they're not drunk. People beat their kids when they're not drunk. There are broken homes without the effects of alcohol.

    You could post a study, I could post a story. And round and round we go.

  5. #125
    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    Getting drunk has been recorded since Noah, so I am not arguing culture's getting drunk. However, physical abuse, broken homes, lost of lives is something that our American culture can blame on the effects of alcohol. I'm sure it has happened through out history of our world, but(of course I would have to write a paper with resources to prove it) today in America significantly worse.

    Men in America hit their wives because their drunk, Men in the middle east hit their wives because they think that is their right.

    Ok, i'm off to sea world!!

    In Love,

    WhyMe
    Alcohol is only the means, sin (a.k.a. Lawlessness) is the problem. Just like a gun is only the means of murder, sin is the probleam. This argument is unbiblical and illogical.

    Hail King Jesus,
    seal

  6. #126
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ zilla View Post
    I drink root beer
    YUM! Me too? What brand? I like "Mug."

  7. #127
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    hmmm..... still waiting on someone to respond to my last post.

  8. #128
    HCR Veterano t-roberts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    YUM! Me too? What brand? I like "Mug."
    I'm an IBC man just because the bottle is made of glass.

  9. #129
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Default here's the facts

    1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.

    furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.

    now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.

    2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.

    in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.

    3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?

    4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.

    5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.

    6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.

    the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.

    7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.

    8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.

    after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.

    i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.

  10. #130
    HCR Veterano KFB's Avatar
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    Not often. I do enjoy good apple cider(the real cider, which is alcoholic).

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.

    furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.

    now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.

    2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.

    in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.

    3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?

    4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.

    5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.

    6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.

    the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.

    7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.

    8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.

    after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.

    i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.

    Is it a sin to drink?

  12. #132
    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.

    furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.

    now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.

    2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.

    in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.

    3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?

    4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.

    5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.

    6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.

    the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.

    7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.

    8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.

    after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.

    i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.
    Yo,

    Dude you are starting to get ridiculous now. Saying we are beyond sin is a very serious error and you really need to clarify that from the Holy Scriptures not from your emotions. Scripture and verse please.

    Also, I really think that you have had a bad experience with alcohol feel free to disclose the issue so we can help build and show empathy.

    Hail King Jesus,
    seal

  13. #133
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.
    Yet you haven't proved it. This is the third or fourth time you've said it, but without proof. Again, even if it is, what difference does it make. They were getting just as drunk as people are today. You have no evidence that this was the case in these situations. none, nor have you attempted to prove it.

    furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.
    It doesn't suggest anything. It only suggests that in that particular case it may have been beer. But what does that prove? Nothing. Again, you make assertions without proof. So what if they didn't have E&J, jack, or everclear? What does any of that prove? It only proves that they didn't have E&J, jack or everclear. It doesn't go without saying. You're relying on empirical arguments.
    now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.
    What difference does that make? If it's wrong to drink alcohol, it should be wrong period, not with how diluted it is or how much you drink. Again, you can't, nor have you proven that this is the case.

    2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.
    So? Yayin(Hebrew for wine) occurs 140 times and either refers to wine in the sense we're speaking of, or wine figuratively for God's wrath. That's completely false as I've proven that it doesn't mean unfermented grapes every time. Even you said I was right about that.

    in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.
    Fam, why would the pharisees call Jesus a winebibber if He didn't drink wine? That makes absolutely no sense. You know good and well that that was real wine. It was a wedding feast, they served wine, and you have no examples in scripture as to where it wasn't real wine referred to. Even your luke passage and your extra-biblical assessment of it would prove that they were going to let it ferment.

    3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?
    I already addressed this one. Why not go for the clearer meaning instead of presupposing what you want it to mean? Now you're just making stuff up and avoiding the issue.

    4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.
    He was also the King of Salem. Proverbs 31 doesn't say that. It only shows the author speaking to Lemuel about it. It's clearly about his being sober-minded in his decrees, not about abstaining from alcohol. Melchesidek obviously gave Abram wine, showing that's it's obviously OK for him to have. It's a stretch to say that Abram to didn't drink it. And you ignore that the King of Kings drank alcohol.
    Last edited by BondServant; 06-23-2007 at 03:45 PM.

  14. #134
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.
    That's completely false as I've already shown why. It doesn't matter if one tithes or not. They still consumed alcohol. Either it's wrong or not. Again, you resort to empirical arguments and mere speculation.

    6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.
    It does not prohibit the drinking of alcohol in Proverbs 31, that's read into the text. luke 1 is dealing specifically with John the Baptist. In the OT, the priests could not drink wine or strong drink before they went into the temple. It was also forbidden for the nazarite to drink wine in the time of his vow. But God specifically says that once that vow is over, the nazarite could drink(num. 6:20). Was God encouraging the nazarites to sin and to be less holy? Christ is the Prince of Peace, King of Kings, and He drank. Perhaps your more holy than He? I reign with Christ now, but that's another convo. He also said that He would drink wine anew with His disciples--"I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." Perhaps you'd pass on that because you don't want to give the appearance of evil?

    the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.
    Again, you're not John the Baptist. "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." Would you have said the same about Christ? And you again resort to speculation as to why He wasn't to drink wine. I could make up something as well. You also resort to ad hominems. And you judge your Lord and Saviour in the process just like the pharisees did.

    7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.
    He said, "I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." He says that He won't drink it "AGAIN", implying that He had before. So He gave His reason as to why He wouldn't drink already. He said this at the Supper. Why would they even have wine at the Supper if it was worldly, or if they were to deny themselves, why even have it at the Supper. You don't have to drink, that's fine with me, but your arguments are severely flawed.

    8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.
    Where do you read that "timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ"?

    after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.
    You have no biblical case, therefore you must abandon your view. What edifying about you playing X-Box, or ironing your shirt? This is purely subjective.

    i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.
    because it doesn't prove anything.

  15. #135
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    The Bible says

    (1) drunkenness is a sin and work of the flesh(Galatians 5:21)

    (2) believers are not to be stumblingblocks to others (Rom 14:13)

    (3) believers are to abstain from all appearance of evil(I Thess 5:22)

    If believers drink and get drunk, God according to His Word is not cool with it. If believers do stuff, including but not limited to drinking, and are a stumblingblock to others in terms of acceptance of drinking, getting buzzed, etc. God isn't cool with it. If believers do stuff, including but not limited to drinking, that has an appearance of unGodliness, God isn't cool with it.

    I believe it is possible to drink, not get drunk, not be a stumbling block, and to abstain from appearing evil and therefore we shouldn't claim sinner if we see somebody . I believe in our 21st century US culture that it is very had to drink and live up to God's word also.

    I choose not to drink as what I could benefit from drinking isn't work risking not meeting God's standard. As a believer, we don't always know who is watching. Is that brew worth taking a chance I am not meeting God's standard? I don't think anything is.

    A lot of the comments pro-drinking have tried to compare it to other activities. It is better to compare each activity to God's word. Whether or not gluttony is accepted or not has no bearing on drinking.

    Examining gluttony, what it really is, its impacts to our body temples is a good topic. Tying stuff like eating cake to gluttony is a big stretch. Eating cake or McDonald's every day for years maybe. Hypothetically, eating cake on birthdays, weddings and as a dessert for dinner once a month isn't unless your doctor has told you so.

    If I drank regularly over the years at get-togethers, holidays, makes it more likely(not automatic) that my children are accepting of social drinking in non-Godly environments which being buzzed at a minimum is regular or to my kids being more accepting of the binge drinking college scene. Potential stumblingblock.

    If I as a believer give out brews at my house to houseguests, and I don't get buzzed but they do, likely stumblingblock. If I as a believer, are making apple martini's, pouring Hennessy for the grown folk, I may be able to deal but is everybody else really able. These are hypothetical scenarios for potential stumblingblocks.

    Again it is possible to meet God's standard to drink regularly, but it is hard. Why take the chance?

  16. #136
    Young Bol Royalty Jackson's Avatar
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    I personally stay away from simply because of the appearance of evil. Also I've gotten drunk before and never wanna taste alcohol again!

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Yo,

    Dude you are starting to get ridiculous now. Saying we are beyond sin is a very serious error and you really need to clarify that from the Holy Scriptures not from your emotions. Scripture and verse please.

    Also, I really think that you have had a bad experience with alcohol feel free to disclose the issue so we can help build and show empathy.

    Hail King Jesus,
    seal
    before i got saved i used to get my drink on and smoke weed daily. that was my lifestyle. however whenever i got saved, the Lord delivered me from all of that. nobody had to tell me that drinking was wrong or smokin was wrong. i had a witness in my spirit that it was wrong. when i accepted Jesus, old things passed away and ALL things were made new.

    you can consider me a modern day John the baptist b/c from the time i was reborn i knew that alcohol wasn't God's plan for my life. God called me to holiness. wasn't nothing sinful about wearing robes and nice gear but John wore camel's hair and a leather belt. wasn't nothing wrong with eating food but all John ate was locusts and wild honey.

    catz is asking if i think i'm more holy than Christ b/c i don't drink wine...lol. i'll answer that by asking if John was holier than Christ b/c he didn't drink wine. (and no my answer doesn't mean that Christ drank alcohol). in mk 14:25 and lk 22:18, all Jesus says is that he won't drink from the "fruit of the vine" until he drinks it new in His kingdom. that phrase comes from a combination of different greek words that simply mean "fruit" or "generation" and "vine". there's absolutely no inference that those words refer to alcohol. Jesus is simply saying he won't drink any fruit juice until he comes back.

    i personally don't believe Jesus drunk alcohol. the pharisees accused him of being a winebibber but that doesn't mean he drank alcohol. that just means they accused Him of being a drunk. they also accused him of casting out devils by the power of beelzebub. but that doesn't mean Jesus had anything to do with witchcraft. besides, even some of the onlookers on the day of pentecost mocked and accused the apostles of being drunk. if anybody disagrees, no problem. i'm simply reasoning from the scriptures.

    i been mainly speaking about myself and my own personal convictions (even though i would have thought i was in the majority vs. the minority). i been saying since the beginning that i don't judge people for drinking wine. but appearantly that's not good enough. catz want me to pat em on the back and tell em it's ok for them to drink. sorry, but that's not gonna happen. why?

    well, first of all, i don't know who's reading this thread? younger, impressionable belivers maybe? who knows? so i'm careful how i coin my responses. some of ya'll may get offended by some of the things i imply (can't help that). when everything is done and said, i could be held accountable for what i said or didn't say in a thread like this. so while i won't say that a christian isn't really saved b/c they drink, i won't endorse such or put God's stamp of approval on it either.

    i been saying all throughout this thread that what you choose to do with your temple is b/w you and the Lord. i care whether or not you drink but i don't CARE whether or not you drink (some of ya'll gonna catch that tomorrow) this isn't a debate to me. God didn't call me to convince people of anything. that's the Holy Spirit's job.

    my purpose was simply to challenge some of you biblically and spiritually. biblically, i'm not so much concerned what you believe as why you believe it. perhaps some of you weren't informed about how in the NT the greek word for "wine" can refer to either alcohol or grape juice. maybe some of you didn't realize that not every hebrew word translated "wine" in the OT actually referred to alcohol. perhaps you weren't aware there's 1 word for grape juice and a totally different word for alcohol even though our english bibles say "wine" in both instances.

    now after you know the difference and apply those study skills to formulate interpretations, i have no problem what you come up with. i might challenge your beliefs and/or interpretations but at the end of the day, i respect your mind. i just refuse to sit by and let people offer and accept interpretations based on ignorance (there he goes with that word again...lol). it doesn't matter to me what you personally believe Jesus turned water into as long as you understand that the word for "wine" could refer to grape juice or alcohol.

    the only reason i gave my opinion was b/c Gloria asked. we can argue the point all day but when everything is done and said, all we really have is speculation. *makes note to ask Jesus whenever i see Him in Glory* speaking of which, on many of these passages all i can offer is speculation. i admit that. if you have a more solid biblical interpretation, enlighten me please. i really wanna know why God ordained fermented wine to be used as drink offerings? i wanna know why God told israel they could use their tithe money to purchase wine and strong drink? i'm here to teach but i'm also here to learn. oftentime's i speculate b/c i really don't know. there's nothing wrong with speculation as long as everyone understands that's all it is. but hey, we have to start somewhere dont we?

    some of ya'll catz keep asking for proof concerning why wine today is stronger than biblical times. but then ya'll argue that it doesn't matter one way or another b/c that doesn't prove anything. for the record, why belittle the point for "proof" if after i dig up every reference i can find, you just come back and say that my "proof" doesn't really prove anything...lol. if there's something specific you want me to provide, just let me know and i'll see what I got.

    but my whole point was that if wine and strong drink is stronger today than it was in biblical times, then just b/c it may have been alright then, doesn't mean it's automatically alright now. but that's just an argument, food for thought, whatever. the fact of the matter is whether or not it's a sin (in and of itself) isn't the issue. the question that needs to be answered is whether or not it's edifying. paul taught that all things were lawful, but not all things were profitable (1 corin 6:12, 10:23).

    paul taught there's a number of things the bible doesn't specifically say are sinful in and of themselves. nevertheless, they can be sinful if not practiced under the law of love. he used drinking as an illustration (romans14:16-21). i love unbelievers enough not to drink alcohol. i love my brothers and sisters in Christ enough not to drink alcohol. catz asked whether or not playing the xbox edifies? ofcourse not, video games are of the devil. j/k the point paul was making wasn't that you shouldn't do anything that doesn't produce a godly result. he was teaching that you should avoid anything that COULD produce an ungodly one.

    it doesn't matter whether or not you could drink alcohol and not go to hell. could your drinking alcohol cause your brother to stumble? could your drinking alcohol set a bad example for someone else? could your drinking alcohol hinder your witness? let's not get bogged down in minor details and arguments over the law. let's look at the bigger picture here.

    we can even take it a step further spiritually...

    what if the feeling of joy and gladness induced by alcohol was actually counterfeit? what if the devil created drunkeness and drugs as an alternative to the Holy Spirit? what if God had something for believers a million times better than what alcohol could ever offer? what if God encouraged people to drink wine b/c it symbolized the coming joy believers would have in the Holy Ghost? what if everytime you partook of the symbol, you were missing or neglecting what the symbol actually represented? could that have been what paul was trying to get across in eph. 5:15-18 when he exhorted believers to be filled with the SPirit instead of being drunk with wine?

    in that same chapter he encouraged believers not to even have a hint of impurity. he said they were once darkness but now light so find out what was pleasing to the Lord. he said they shouldn't participate in darkness but expose it. he wanted them to live wise and not unwise b/c the days are evil. he wanted them to make the most out of every opportunity.

    that's all i want for you guys and gals. i'm not trying to argue or debate. personally i thought i was threw with this thread 2 or 3 essays back...lol. but folks kept asking questions like they didn't understand what i was saying or where i was coming from. hopefully it's all clear now. now how bout a round of virgin daquiris on me?

  18. #138
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    I skipped pages 4-6 of this thread and son of man still has yet to PROVE that the wine of bible times spoken of in the scriptures is non-alcoholic. Saying it and re-saying it doesn't prove it.

    And the 'every appearance of evil' argument should also keep some of you from going back to the table for seconds, since gluttony is also a sin and some of you need to lose weight. The fatter you appear, the more sinful you appear.
    STILL BLACK :: STILL REFORMED :: STILL AROUND
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  19. #139
    HCR Veterano WhyMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    [/I]
    And the 'every appearance of evil' argument should also keep some of you from going back to the table for seconds, since gluttony is also a sin and some of you need to lose weight. The fatter you appear, the more sinful you appear.
    It seems you are half way making a joke and half way serious.

    I will address the half way serious, since this point was brought up by somebody else in this thread.

    This is not directed towards BC, but to everybody who uses the gluttony argument to make a point because I've been hearing it frequently used lately to justify things and I just wanted to finally respond briefly on that.

    It should be obvious this argument is not biblical and sad, justifying anything that could be right or wrong,(drinking in this case) by comparing it to something that many people constantly do and is clearly a sin in the bible(gluttony) does not make it right.

    I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.)
    Last edited by WhyMe; 06-24-2007 at 10:07 AM.
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  20. #140
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    the only alcohol I like are wines and the fruit flavored beverages.

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