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  1. #181
    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    the problem is is that honestly..were not giving Edwards a fair chance.im not speaking his theology.i mean his character.see we gotta examine the BIG picture.not just "o he was a white man who owned slaves"..we gotta examine it ALL.we have to put ourselves in the shoes of Edwards.we just cant look at him in 2007 as a Racist Cracker.it needs proper examination.i think alot of us tend to struggle with that because Slavery was such a cruel and horrific act and the effects remain to this day.alot of bitter folks out.alot of confused people looking for answers.
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  2. #182
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    the problem is is that honestly..were not giving Edwards a fair chance.im not speaking his theology.i mean his character.see we gotta examine the BIG picture.not just "o he was a white man who owned slaves"..we gotta examine it ALL.we have to put ourselves in the shoes of Edwards.we just cant look at him in 2007 as a Racist Cracker.it needs proper examination.i think alot of us tend to struggle with that because Slavery was such a cruel and horrific act and the effects remain to this day.alot of bitter folks out.alot of confused people looking for answers.
    yo fam, edit that
    Jesus asked them: "Who do you say I am?" They said: "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of our selfhood revealed." Jesus replied: "Huh?"

  3. #183
    HCR Ole' Head The_Expositor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Culture Radio View Post
    again expositor, im not trying to discuss how well he did or didnt treat his slaves. what did you think about my example of the pedafile. I'm just trying to show you that you are missing the main point. Edwards being a slave owner hasnt give me a reason to NOT think he didnt whoop on em'. Or at least have his people whoop on em'.
    I understand what you're saying, and I understand your point. While he was totally wrong for owning slaves, there is still a Christian element to his life, and I think you might be overlooking that.

    If someone is a rapist, I can't assume that they're also a murderer just because a lot of rapists also murder their victims.

    Is it your belief that Edwards was not a Christian at all? Either way, to imply something about someone that you can't prove nor have ever heard or seen in print is......gossip. This man is long gone and can't defend himself any longer, so your claim cannot be substantiated, taco...(Sorry, I'm hungry and you kept talking about tortillas )
    "He who hates, disguises it with his lips, and lays up deceit within himself; When he speaks kindly, do not believ him, for there are seven abominations in his heart." Proverbs 26

  4. #184
    HCR Veterano Danielle's Avatar
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    Is it even logical to admonished men that conducted their lives in total disobedience to the scriptures, yet because they were theologically sound it erase their lives? The problem that is evident is that a person's life will be weight with the word of God, is God more please with JE's doctrine or with his heart? We all know that the answer is the HEART. You can be a preacher the studies theologies for years and just regurgitates them out of your mouth, but if the law is not found in his heart, is it still meaningful? We must remember that just like any other man JE was just that a man, a mere mortal with no way of saving himself or anyone else, which means that is theologies and writings were and are not enough to save anyone not even himself, if his life is not properly aligned with the word of GOD, then everything else is meaningless. We cannot justify his sins with making excuses such as "those were the times that he lived in, or he was good to his slaves, or he was an advocate against brutal slavery" because at the core the atrocities of the American Slave Trade were not pleasing to God. Just the same with our sins we cannot justify them by stating that "we did spread the gospel to sinners, or I read my word everyday, or I even was ordained a minister" if your life does not line up with the WORD, isn't everything else meaningless? Is God please with those other things so much that He is willing to disregard all other of sins? No the truth remains that the Word states that those who are involved with slave trading are as bad as murderer, for him to be such a great theologian yet, consciously choose to disregard that scripture overrides every possible indication that he should be admonished, as a great Christian crusader, what type of fruit did he bear? what type of life did he live in the view of his slaves? Has anyone thought about that, if he should be a witness to a dieing world, then how good of a witness was he to his slaves, regarding to the love of Christ? If he was seen as an example of Christ by his slaves, what does that say about Christ? that he condones slavery, that it is pleasing in His eyes? Was he being an effective and accurate witness, an ambassador of Christ, a slave to Christ with his life?
    Last edited by Danielle; 04-13-2007 at 10:51 AM.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle View Post
    Is it even logical to admonished men that conducted their lives in total disobedience to the scriptures, yet because they were theologically sound it erase their lives? The problem that is evident is that a person's life will be weight with the word of God, is God more please with JE's doctrine or with his heart? We all know that the answer is the HEART. You can be a preacher the studies theologies for years and just regurgitates them out of your mouth, but if the law is not found in his heart, is it still meaningful? We must remember that just like any other man JE was just that a man, a mere mortal with no way of saving himself or anyone else, which means that is theologies and writings were and are not enough to save anyone not even himself, if his life is not properly aligned with the word of GOD, then everything else is meaningless. We cannot justify his sins with making excuses such as "those were the times that he lived in, or he was good to his slaves, or he was an advocate against brutal slavery" because at the core the atrocities of the American Slave Trade were not pleasing to God. Just the same with our sins we cannot justify them by stating that "we did spread the gospel to sinners, or I read my word everyday, or I even was ordained a minister" if your life does not line up with the WORD, isn't everything else meaningless? Is God please with those other things so much that He is willing to disregard all of sins? No the truth remains that the Word states that those who are involved with slave trading are as bad as murderer, for his to be such a great theologian yet, consciously choose to disregard that scripture overrides every possible indication that he should be admonished, as a great Christian crusader, what type of fruit did he bear? what type of life did he live in the view of his slaves? Has anyone thought about that, if he should be a witness to a dieing world, then how good of a witness was he to his slaves, regarding to the love of Christ? If he was seen as an example of Christ by his slaves, what does that say about Christ? that he condones slavery, that it is pleasing in His eyes? Was he being an effective and accurate witness, an ambassador of Christ, a slave to Christ with his life?
    I think we all can benefit from keeping in mind what this sister said.




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  6. #186
    HCR Veterano ROB's Avatar
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    I also believe we should listen to what Danielle had to say because God DOES ponder the heart, not just head knowledge.

    I would also add this. Since he believed that he couldn't lose his salvation, maybe that also had something to do with him living the way a lived and preaching what he preached. I believed JE lived what he preached to the best of his ability. He believed that God had chosen him to be one of His "elect" and that nothing he did or didn't do would change that since he believed he did nothing to earn it. That's what he preached and that's what he lived. I respect him for that, I always respect people who walk what they talk, although I don't believe what he taught or did was right.

    With the Roots series coming out again, I pray we all watch it and allow our faith to help us imagine and even feel what it would be like as a slave during those days or even a slave owner. After this we should ask ourselves a question. Knowing what we know about Christ could we really in good conscience own slaves, watch how they were treated, particiapte in it and not be convicted of what we are doing.

    Thanks DJ Links for starting this thread.
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  7. #187
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    ROB,

    Would it be safe for me to conclude that you live a legalistic life and that you trust in your own righteousness for your salvation?
    Jesus asked them: "Who do you say I am?" They said: "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of our selfhood revealed." Jesus replied: "Huh?"

  8. #188
    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    I am glad this thread sparked much needed discussion on the board, but I hope the main point I was trying to make wasn't lost.

    If anyone hasn't heard this message from a Sherard Burns (a black man who holds to reformed theology) on JE I recommend all listen. He makes some great points.

    Again I am glad that this discussion on JE is taking place because it needs to. In my opinion too long there has been a double standard on this board of going after certain preachers who are not in our perspective backyard and we won't even look at those in our own backyard with the same scriptural microscope.

    Specific scrips were used on this board to show JE was living foul in respect to his owning of slaves and showed that scripture says the way you live is also akin to good doctrine. Some disagreed due to who pointed that distinction out and then basically agreed somewhere else.

    Fam there is a double standard. If we are going to put one under the microscope for one thing then we can't get upset when another is put under the same microscope. Equity fam equity is all I am calling for.

    Now we can really get into the implications of slavery and the church in another thread (if you listen to that message dude says something deep about what Edwards could have done but didnt) but I think we have picked the bones dry regarding his slave owning and I can't and won't stop anyone from discussing further if they so choose.

    Thanks for listening.
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  9. #189
    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    is it safe to say that edwards is like creflo though links?

    because im not arguing the "double standard issue"

    i just thought that the the JE supporters couldnt admit he was wrong and that what he did was sin.

    but we cant compare someone like edwards to creflo or long.simply because alot of people believe Edwards theology to be BIBLICAL.i cant vouch for that honestly because i never heard a sermon.but ive heard others like olsteen,cref and etc. and i can say that a majority of it isnt Biblically supported type of teaching.

    so i guess you possibly are confusing things here.when people bash Creflo or Jakes it isnt because of their personal life.its the TEACHINGS that are being bashed.
    when we talk about Edwards were talking about his LIFESTYLE not his teachings.

    so there cant be a Double standard with the Judgment that the Reformed Camp uses because its always been about the Doctrine.so im not sure how Edwards and Creflo are the same.i dont see how Edwards and Hinn are the same.
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  10. #190
    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    is it safe to say that edwards is like creflo though links?

    because im not arguing the "double standard issue"

    i just thought that the the JE supporters couldnt admit he was wrong and that what he did was sin.

    but we cant compare someone like edwards to creflo or long.simply because alot of people believe Edwards theology to be BIBLICAL.i cant vouch for that honestly because i never heard a sermon.but ive heard others like olsteen,cref and etc. and i can say that a majority of it isnt Biblically supported type of teaching.

    so i guess you possibly are confusing things here.when people bash Creflo or Jakes it isnt because of their personal life.its the TEACHINGS that are being bashed.
    when we talk about Edwards were talking about his LIFESTYLE not his teachings.

    so there cant be a Double standard with the Judgment that the Reformed Camp uses because its always been about the Doctrine.so im not sure how Edwards and Creflo are the same.i dont see how Edwards and Hinn are the same.
    I only say there is a double standard when Paul said that the manner in which you live is also akin to good doctrine. The 2 go together. The double standard also comes in when some have continually brought up the false convert mantra but when asked the specific question "can someone live in unrepentant sin and still be considered saved?" there was no answer. On that basis alone I believe there is a double standard and that we don't apply the rule of scripture equally to all.
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  11. #191
    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Yo,

    Once again, I've been ignored. Do people listen to the voice of scripture or their own logic and emotions? I posed questions that only one person tried to answer out of the 20 or more who posted. It looks like people would rather voice their opinions and condemnations then search the scriptures for either examples of this issue or counsel. I have a clear conscious that Johnathan Edwards was a brother in Christ. I see in scripture where great men of Faith like David, Samson, Gideon, Solomon, and Jacob committed terrible sins even worst then Edwards but it was God who showed Mercy on them. Works Salvation is one thing, but to say that God couldn't have been with this man b/c of his habitual sin is another. It sickens me to think that people on Holy Culture take themselves out of this category as habitual sinners. As if you are being Justified and Sanctified by something inherently good in you. It's ridiculous.

    I wish we could have a Bible study online so we could go through the Book of Genesis alone and see our judgements are skewed b/c according to the judgements leashed on Edwards on here non of the saints I listed above were saints either. That's if we were consistent. Yet many refuse to be consistent b/c they are being bias and prejudice. Am I not an African American? People may think that I'm bias b/c Edwards was Reformed, well you are right. That doesn't take away the facts of what scripture tells about our saints and their terrible habitual sins but we hold this habitual sin against Edwards as his Tombstone.

    When you start thinking you are a more worthier believer then someone else b/c of their sin...THINK AGAIN COOKIE!!!


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  12. #192
    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Yo,

    Once again, I've been ignored. Do people listen to the voice of scripture or their own logic and emotions? I posed questions that only one person tried to answer out of the 20 or more who posted. It looks like people would rather voice their opinions and condemnations then search the scriptures for either examples of this issue or counsel. I have a clear conscious that Johnathan Edwards was a brother in Christ. I see in scripture where great men of Faith like David, Samson, Gideon, Solomon, and Jacob committed terrible sins even worst then Edwards but it was God who showed Mercy on them. Works Salvation is one thing, but to say that God couldn't have been with this man b/c of his habitual sin is another. It sickens me to think that people on Holy Culture take themselves out of this category as habitual sinners. As if you are being Justified and Sanctified by something inherently good in you. It's ridiculous.

    I wish we could have a Bible study online so we could go through the Book of Genesis alone and see our judgements are skewed b/c according to the judgements leashed on Edwards on here non of the saints I listed above were saints either. That's if we were consistent. Yet many refuse to be consistent b/c they are being bias and prejudice. Am I not an African American? People may think that I'm bias b/c Edwards was Reformed, well you are right. That doesn't take away the facts of what scripture tells about our saints and their terrible habitual sins but we hold this habitual sin against Edwards as his Tombstone.

    When you start thinking you are a more worthier believer then someone else b/c of their sin...THINK AGAIN COOKIE!!!


    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    Seal I'm done with the this thread. I agree with this and will say its my conclusion on this issue as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet storm View Post
    One thing I appreiciate about the sermon is the fact that when he spoke on the "culture context" he did so in the sense to better help people understand why Christian men could be slave owners but he did not do it in the sense of justifying it. This is the balance that has been missed by many people especially those I use to attend school with. I also liked how he dealt with the "slaves were treated better" argumentation that is often used by simply stating the obvious that "they are still slaves". Probably my favorite part of the sermon is when he deals with the question, "Why should we listen to Edwards" and he mainly addresses it to black people. He focusses on the sovereignty of God and how God can still use people to present truth despite the extreme error in their life. Bro. Burns articulated in a much more clearer and excellent fashion many of the thoughts that I have had on this particular topic and we both have reached the same conclusion. I would encourage all to go peep his sermon if not for you but as a resource you could take from to better help people understand this issue. Grace & Peace
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  13. #193
    HCR Veterano dremarshall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Yo,

    Once again, I've been ignored. Do people listen to the voice of scripture or their own logic and emotions? I posed questions that only one person tried to answer out of the 20 or more who posted. It looks like people would rather voice their opinions and condemnations then search the scriptures for either examples of this issue or counsel. I have a clear conscious that Johnathan Edwards was a brother in Christ. I see in scripture where great men of Faith like David, Samson, Gideon, Solomon, and Jacob committed terrible sins even worst then Edwards but it was God who showed Mercy on them. Works Salvation is one thing, but to say that God couldn't have been with this man b/c of his habitual sin is another. It sickens me to think that people on Holy Culture take themselves out of this category as habitual sinners. As if you are being Justified and Sanctified by something inherently good in you. It's ridiculous.

    I wish we could have a Bible study online so we could go through the Book of Genesis alone and see our judgements are skewed b/c according to the judgements leashed on Edwards on here non of the saints I listed above were saints either. That's if we were consistent. Yet many refuse to be consistent b/c they are being bias and prejudice. Am I not an African American? People may think that I'm bias b/c Edwards was Reformed, well you are right. That doesn't take away the facts of what scripture tells about our saints and their terrible habitual sins but we hold this habitual sin against Edwards as his Tombstone.

    When you start thinking you are a more worthier believer then someone else b/c of their sin...THINK AGAIN COOKIE!!!

    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    Yo Seal I don't think the issue is if Jonathan Edwards is a brotha or not, it's the fact that he is no different than Kenneth Hagin. Dad Hagin is dead, but I never seen you or anyone "reformed" so to speak run up in here doing what you're doing now. See the issue is the double standard, the hypocrisy & that is as much sin as owning slaves. I've seen cats in one breath say you're an idiot, but I can't say Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29? It's hypocrites & now the question is still Why the double standard? Now I've seen it said "Edwards preached truth so his lifestyle doesn't matter" but isn't your lifestyle the fruit of that which you study, learn?
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  14. #194
    HCR Ole' Head BlackCalvinist's Avatar
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    HCR Veterano dremarshall's Avatar
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    Yo one last thing I'd like to add as water reflects the face the heart reflects the man. I do believe it's possible to have a heart for something, but not ever get it right. Some of us deal with lasciviousness quite regularly I think that's what ol' boy was dealing with, but again this thread wasn't about Edwards it was about you. Yes you who is reading it, are you a hypocrite or are you double minded?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dremarshall View Post
    Yo Seal I don't think the issue is if Jonathan Edwards is a brotha or not, it's the fact that he is no different than Kenneth Hagin. Dad Hagin is dead, but I never seen you or anyone "reformed" so to speak run up in here doing what you're doing now. See the issue is the double standard, the hypocrisy & that is as much sin as owning slaves. I've seen cats in one breath say you're an idiot, but I can't say Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29? It's hypocrites & now the question is still Why the double standard? Now I've seen it said "Edwards preached truth so his lifestyle doesn't matter" but isn't your lifestyle the fruit of that which you study, learn?
    Okay once again I don't think people are thinking here at all. B/c no one can correllate any scriptural Truth to back their answers. First of all Hagin and Edwards shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. That's just my opinion. But to say that Edwards lifestyle contradicts his Truth is nothing new. Do you know what the scripture tells of the Life of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac? Their lifestyle at times didn't reflect that they knew God at all nor worshipped him. But yet God showed Mercy to them. Hagin wouldn't know Truth if it tapped him on the shoulder and smacked him. That's just my opinion. But what I say about these saints is Truth and recorded in scripture. God used wicked sinners for his Glory. If you don't believe that, then look in the mirror. There's no double standard. In my opinion and what I've concluded from scripture Hagin and friends are preaching a different Gospel then the one past down through Church History. If you don't like that statement, take it to the Theo Boards and debate it.

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    Last edited by seal; 04-13-2007 at 01:32 PM.
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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Okay once again I don't think people are thinking here at all. B/c no one can correllate any scriptural Truth to back their answers. First of all Hagin and Edwards shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. That's just my opinion. But to say that Edwards lifestyle contradicts his Truth is nothing new. Do you know the what scripture tells of the Life of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac? Their lifestyle at times didn't reflect that they knew God at all nor worshipped him. But yet God showed Mercy to them. Hagin wouldn't know Truth if it tapped him on the shoulder and smacked him. That's just my opinion. But what I say about these saints is Truth and recorded in scripture. God used wicked sinners for his Glory. If you don't believe that, then look in the mirror. There's no double standard. In my opinion and what I've concluded from scripture Hagin and friends are preaching a different Gospel then the one past down through Church History. If you don't like that statement, take it to the Theo Boards and debate it.

    Nobodies sin is justified nor could it be, but doctrine is to be judged by scripture.


    Hail King Jesus,
    seal
    Agreed.
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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    ive been thinking about this Edwards issue and peeping the thread.i cant help to think that some people are saying that If we can support Edwards knowing that he owned slaves then somehow Creflo,TD,Hagin and Hinn can be justified aswell.is this true?

    i would have to disagree.first Edwards doesnt preach a false gospel.Creflo,Jakes,Hinn and Hagin do.so theres no way the Doctrine can be argued here and there is no double standard.if Edwards preached Heresy then he would be up there with Creflo and them.but he's not.also Seal DOES have a point when mentioning great men of the bible who have commited Adultry,Incest,Murder,Coveting and ETC.But these are men of the Bible we look up to.So hows it different with Edwards?alot of people think Edwards was some Racist Cracker Bigot.but how do we know?peep that sermon that i posted up.it will explain as to why he owned slaves.people are saying there is a Double Moral Standard when theyre isnt.Edwards and Hagin Dont compare because Hagin preaches false doctrine.Edwards doesnt.both men have sinned.like we ALL do.but we cant label Edwards a heretic because he sinned.thats crazy.if we were to operate under this logic the Piper and Washer are Bonafied HERETICS.Every great man of the Bible is Bonafied HERETIC.this Logic isnt even making any sense and is outta line.
    Last edited by Devin; 04-13-2007 at 01:43 PM.
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    HCR Veterano dremarshall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    ive been thinking about this Edwards issue and peeping the thread.i cant help to think that some people are saying that If we can support Edwards knowing that he owned slaves then somehow Creflo,TD,Hagin and Hinn can be justified aswell.is this true?

    i would have to disagree.first Edwards doesnt preach a false gospel.Creflo,Jakes,Hinn and Hagin do.so theres no way the Doctrine can be argued here and there is no double standard.if Edwards preached Heresy then he would be up there with Creflo and them.but he's not.also Seal DOES have a point when mentioning great men of the bible who have commited Adultry,Incest,Murder,Coveting and ETC.But these are men of the Bible we look up to.
    Loot what was Edwards doctrine sir, in your own words
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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dremarshall View Post
    Loot what was Edwards doctrine sir, in your own words
    if u look up above posts you will find out that im just repeating what the others have said about his doctrine.i know Life is reading his material and i believe she has some of it on her website.but ive stated before that i havent heard his stuff and im speaking from the perspective of those who had.
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    You gotta Shoot me! I'm NOT Buck Dancing! - Pastor Manning

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