Johnathan Edwards in light of Roots and possible Double Standards

[BondServant]

plus ive mentioned before that im relaying what others are saying.Seal believes this,Bondservant believes this.pretty much every JE supporter believes this.im just giving the message Dre.

Bondservant believes what?

Why do people keep using my name?

[seal]

Bondservant believes what?

Why do people keep using my name?

BS, are you having some sort of crisis in that people can't use or mention your name or use your name in vain???....LOL... J/K

[BondServant]

BS, are you having some sort of crisis in that people can't use or mention your name or use your name in vain???....LOL... J/K

Naw, cats keep using my name because I'm reformed, and they are bias to all things reformed.

[Quiet storm]

Bondservant believes what?

Why do people keep using my name?

BS now you see what I mean. Remember our conversation?

[BondServant]

BS now you see what I mean. Remember our conversation?

I remember, that's what I was thinking about yesterday. The day of our convo

[CHRISTion]

From his website:

THREE DIMENSIONS OF ONE GOD (1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 1 Tim 3:16)

We believe in one God who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His manifestation, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in His authority.

The Bible, the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, are the inspired Word of God without error in the original writings, and complete revelation of His will for the salvation of men, and the divine and final authority for all Christian faith and life.

God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ--Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He died on the cross, the complete and final sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. Further, He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He is now our High Priest and Advocate.

The Holy Spirit--The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and during this age, to convict men of sin, regenerate the believing sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living and service.

[BlackCalvinist]

But I have read his point of view regarding the Trinity and it doesn't sound like he's denying it. then again it doesn't sound like he fully supports it..That wording can get so tricky sometimes..I just wish people would just come out and say stuff...enough of the super intellectual all the time..sometime a good ol "Jesus is Lord" is good for me...lol

So you'd have no problems with a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon or a member of the Unification Church, since they all say 'Jesus is Lord' too ?

The wording for the Trinity never gets 'tricky'. It's always been the same. Let me give you a little sampling from various theological traditions:

http://www.the5thquarter.com/forum/i...dpost&p=564658

(not reposting the whole link here because it's a bit long, but I cited doctrinal statements from United Methodist, Baptist General Conference, Southern Baptist Convention, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, Evangelical Free Church in America, Presybterian Church in America and the Assemblies of God to show that they are UNANIMOUS in their agreement on the doctrine of the Trinity and none of the language is 'tricky' in any sense)

All that said, take time and read through the link above, especially the Assemblies of God's statement (which I think is the strongest one on the subject):

d. Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.

o John 5:17-30 [KJV/NIV]
o John 5:32 [KJV/NIV]
o John 5:37 [KJV/NIV]
o John 8:17,18 [KJV/NIV]


and

h. Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ
Wherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

o 2 John 1:9 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:1 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:2 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:14 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:18 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:29 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:49 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 2:22,23 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:1-5 [KJV/NIV]
o Hebrews 12:2 [KJV/NIV]


CHRIStion:

As of 5 minutes ago, Jakes' website says:

God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So, no. He hasn't changed his position. It's still the same as it was when he spoke out in Christianity Today back in 2000.

For comparison purposes:
http://www.afcministry.com/TD_Jakes_...y_examined.htm

ACF has done a great job in this analysis of Jakes' response and shown that even in his response, he affirmed a different view of the Godhead not taught in scripture.

[seal]

From his website:

HERESY!!!!

[dremarshall]

I wouldn't say he's a wolf in sheep clothing b/c to me he's clearly a wolf. His stance on the Trinity is atrocious, so me and your issue on T.D. going to come from our presuppositional stances when it come to Doctrine. We are going to come to two different conclusions on Jakes. This is the reason for debate and discussion on what's the correct view of the Trininity and we do this by searching the Scriptures and Church History.

Not too much of a wolf whereas he represented Christ well when dealing with the Rutgers situation.

[seal]

Not too much of a wolf whereas he represented Christ well when dealing with the Rutgers situation.

He handled it politically correct, but the Biblical answer is sin. Imus is a sinner and needs the Gospel preached to him. His chatisement gave him grief but no solution. So don't expect him to be a changed man after this unless God intervenes.

Hail King Jesus,
seal

[BlackCalvinist]

Not too much of a wolf whereas he represented Christ well when dealing with the Rutgers situation.

What seal said.

Further, the Mormon church opposes abortion and murder. That doesn't mean they're reppin' Christ - it just means they're right on those issues.

[Devin]

Naw, cats keep using my name because I'm reformed, and they are bias to all things reformed.

im not bias.i didnt use your name in a negative manner.i thought you like Edwards sermons?

[CCordero]

Hey Links,

I started reading his defense of slavery(opposition to african trade) and I got sick on my stomach. I just closed the page. sigh(but i will finish)...James said I needed to see both sides....lol...Well i tried hubby.

The excuses(defenses) were really sickening(to me)...on a side note. he was NOT the only minister in that NE area who owned slaves. Some when faced with the extravagent conotation of slave owning, freed their slaves and some like JE kept them til his death and never made provision to be freed.

In reading I found it interesting too that his first slave he bought(for his wife, i hope) with almost have a year's salary!...what???...That is like me today paying $20K( or more depending on the economy), for someone to prove my stature, not to make me any money(seems stupid, but Christians buy extravagent things now for stature too).

Also interesting that part of his defense was not a real defense, but a pluck the log out of your own eye first rebuttal.
This is what I can't wrap my mind around... WHY is it wrong to trade a slave from africa to the caribean, but "institutional"(okay) to trade them within a homeland(where mothers and kids were seperated on the spot in NE)? There was no biblical basis to reject one but allow the other. If I am wrong QS/Links let me know yall...

edit: Links I have read through some of you posts and see the JE issue is not really your focus here, so you don't have to reply.

Has anyone seen Lisa around? I would like to know the book she read?

[Cowboy]

[naijagirl]

Has anyone seen Lisa around? I would like to know the book she read?

You could PM her.

[CCordero]

You could PM her.

She has not been here for quite some time. I doubt that she checks her pms. At least I haven't seen her around. I was hoping to find out if someone actually personally knows her.

[Deadmanwalking]

ummmm...owning a slave and saying that Christ become satan on the cross really don't compare in my book.

Word.

Ok, so here I am like a year late....but I'd like to chime in, even though what I say has probably already been said.

I don't know much about Jon Edwards. Haven't read his books. Haven't checked his history. I'm more of a bible man myself. I should read some books though.

Anyway, the truth is that his actions are not blasphemous as much as they are sins that at that time were social norms. The buying and selling of slaves was a social norm. The forceful slavery was probably looked upon like conquest slavery...the Jews did that if I'm not mistaken. Now, I would assume that if Jon Edwards is saved, then he treated his slaves kindly. That's just my assumption.

But again I assert that slavery does not compare to heresy. Slavery was a socially acceptable sin. But I don't deny that it was SIN.

But to question his salvation based on that sin is to question your own salvation. Your own gluttony. Your own social apathy in that you do nothing about the hunger over seas. In America we horde the world's resources while children in africa go fatherless and hungry. It is sinful to live a life that is so selfish....With your mortgage that is perishable, dumping tons of your money into it and yet only 20% or your income goes into the kingdom..and only 5% of it sees the mission field...In the book of acts the people SOLD their houses to give to the kingdom!

But see, these things that we do, as apathetic and socially/morally irresponsible as they are, are OUR social norms.....and if the LORD tarries, it might be possible that future Christians would question OUR salvation for allowing so much injustice and not doing anything while we work 8 hours a day (or more) for a wicked company just so we can establish our little frail kingdoms here on earth. You should be convicted by James 2:14-17. And James 1:27. Prayers are nice...well wishes are nice...but what are you DOING?



Hmmmm.....but lucky for us, and possibly Jon Edwards, we aren't saved by works, and we're not disqualified by sins...but we're saved by grace alone. We can't take a person's one ignorance and assume the worst. That's my opinion. If the LORD elected to save Jon Edwards in spite of his sin, praise GOD! There's hope for us too then! And THAT is the power of the cross of Christ! That in spite of our terrible errors, He still purchased us with His blood. And there is no power that can reverse that. Although I see Jon Edwards sins as atrocious, I don't look at them as any worse than my owns sins...and if GOD can save him, then He can save me as well.


CLIFF'S NOTES: i don't know whether Jon Edwards is or isn't saved, but I don't believe that we should disqualify him for his social ignorance.

[Gloria]

Word.

Ok, so here I am like a year late....but I'd like to chime in, even though what I say has probably already been said.

I don't know much about Jon Edwards. Haven't read his books. Haven't checked his history. I'm more of a bible man myself. I should read some books though.

Anyway, the truth is that his actions are not blasphemous as much as they are sins that at that time were social norms. The buying and selling of slaves was a social norm. The forceful slavery was probably looked upon like conquest slavery...the Jews did that if I'm not mistaken. Now, I would assume that if Jon Edwards is saved, then he treated his slaves kindly. That's just my assumption.

But again I assert that slavery does not compare to heresy. Slavery was a socially acceptable sin. But I don't deny that it was SIN.

But to question his salvation based on that sin is to question your own salvation. Your own gluttony. Your own social apathy in that you do nothing about the hunger over seas. In America we horde the world's resources while children in africa go fatherless and hungry. It is sinful to live a life that is so selfish....With your mortgage that is perishable, dumping tons of your money into it and yet only 20% or your income goes into the kingdom..and only 5% of it sees the mission field...In the book of acts the people SOLD their houses to give to the kingdom! But see, these things that we do, as apathetic and socially/morally irresponsible are social norms.....and if the LORD tarries, it might be possible that future Christians would question OUR salvation for allowing so much injustice and not doing anything while we work 8 hours a day (or more) for a wicked company just so we can establish our little frail kingdoms here on earth. You should be convicted by James 2:14-17. And James 1:27. Prayers are nice...well wishes are nice...but what are you DOING?



Hmmmm.....but lucky for us, and possibly Jon Edwards, we aren't saved by works, and we're not disqualified by sins...but we're saved by grace alone. We can't take a person's one ignorance and assume the worst. That's my opinion. If the LORD elected to save Jon Edwards in spite of his sin, praise GOD! There's hope for us too then!


CLIFF'S NOTES: i don't know whether Jon Edwards is or isn't saved, but I don't believe that we should disqualify him for his social ignorance.

It's late but it's full of wisdom. God bless you fam!

Only thing I take exception to is the Jews buying and selling slaves. I really can't recall any instances of this in the Bible although there may be some secular accounts of them participating in it...blah.

Anyway good words!

[phil]

great post DMW, but (like gloria hinted to) any jews that bought or sold slaves were in violate of the law which forbid selling people

[Deadmanwalking]

great post DMW, but (like gloria hinted to) any jews that bought or sold slaves were in violate of the law which forbid selling people

ah, yes...i forgot the selling part...yeah, i remember they didn't sell them.