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    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    Default Johnathan Edwards in light of Roots and possible Double Standards

    Let me say this before this thread begins. This thread is not to belittle anyone personally at all!!! This thread is about a big pink elephant mindsets that many either refuse to discuss, are scared to discuss or just want to overlook completely.

    For months now I have seen post after post calling into question the salvation of people on basis of several different criteria. I heard some say that people can have the appearance of a christian and do all the things that christians do yet still be a false convert. Again this is just a small bit of things that have been discussed.

    So with that being said here is the question that I have.

    We have a man such as Johnathan Edwards esteemed by many yet when the criteria of someone that could not be saved Edwards is never talked about. Personally I believe that he is so well respected that many of us want to overlook a big spot on his record and that being that he owned slaves. The argument that him owning slaves was not wrong because the bible mentions the owning of slaves. The argument has also been made that we don't know how Edwards treated his slaves and could have treated his slaves graciously as the bible commands.

    Here is the problem I have with Edwards and his slave ownership. His owning of slaves was not the way slavery is mentioned biblically. Biblically mentioned slavery is NOT American Slavery. I repeat it is not!! The manner in which slaves were brought to America is reprehensable, absolutely reprehensible and we cannot downgrade egregiousness of it. I say this because my wife is a teacher and I have seen first hand how slavery is downplayed in today education system. Unfortunately I think this has carried over into in some fashion to our religious circles.

    Please watch Roots this month or go and peep Amazing Grace about William Wilberforce and see if just by chance you can even diminish the grievous, glaring and heinousness of american slavery.

    Now after having said that I have this next question. Why is it that the same criteria of someone possibly being a false convert won't be applied to Edwards? I view this as a double standard here on HCR amoungst the brethren. We are quick to jump on a Hagin, or Copeland or Hinn, Dollar and most recently Ted Haggard yet we won't apply that same indignation against Edwards. Why?
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 02:02 PM.
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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    Idolatry Masked With Respect.

    that could be one reason why.i dont know how edwards treated his slaves.thats debatable and i would have to research that.or has that already been done with nothing of no help?
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    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    Idolatry Masked With Respect.

    that could be one reason why.i dont know how edwards treated his slaves.thats debatable and i would have to research that.or has that already been done with nothing of no help?
    Selling slaves in the open market isn't debatable. Edwards had this done.

    1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 02:09 PM.
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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    Selling slaves in the open market isn't debatable. Edwards had this done.
    no.what is debatable is his TREATMENT.thats the question that must be answered.im not sure of his TREATMENT of his slaves.Biblically you could own slaves.but if JE was like everyother Christian Slave Master in those days then he was indeed Sinful.but i dont know yet.most Reformed assume he was simply because of his doctrine.i dunno.Creflo has preached some good sermons before too.
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    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    no.what is debatable is his TREATMENT.thats the question that must be answered.im not sure of his TREATMENT of his slaves.Biblically you could own slaves.but if JE was like everyother Christian Slave Master in those days then he was indeed Sinful.but i dont know yet.most Reformed assume he was simply because of his doctrine.i dunno.Creflo has preached some good sermons before too.

    How do you treat something good that you believe is less than human.

    Here are some questions in light of American Slavery and the bible.

    What is the biblical criteria for owning slaves?

    Biblically what leads to one becoming a slave?

    From a biblical standpoint what is the length of the time in which a person is to be a slave?

    From a biblical perspective if we wanted a slave could we go out and purchase one?
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 02:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    How do you treat something good that you believe is less than human.

    Here are some questions in light of American Slavery and the bible.

    What is the biblical criteria for owning slaves?

    Biblically what leads to one becoming a slave?

    From a biblical standpoint what is the length of the time in which a person is to be a slave?

    From a biblical perspective if we wanted a slave could we go out and purchase one?

    well like i said.the issue is the TREATMENT.how do we know rather or not Edwards viewed his slaves as "inferior"?


    theres several Biblical reasons for becoming a slave.

    1.captivity.(Israel)
    2.POW(prisoners of War)
    3.Debt(i owe u money.so i do work to pay it off)
    4.Wife(i wanna be your slave for a few years so i can marry your daughter)

    theres several reasons why people were slaves in the Bible.but i will say that PROPER treatment of slaves is Biblical and if Edwards was IMPROPER then he disobeyed GOD and if anyone one here can stick up for him knowing that he was Unbiblical with this issue then you are a sad case.but like i said...i have no idea how Edwards treated his slaves.But i will probably do some research on it.
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    HCR Ole' Head jnorman888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    Selling slaves in the open market isn't debatable. Edwards had this done.

    1 Timothy 1:9-11

    9We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

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    I think it is easy to get off track but we must try. The focus of the thread is not to condemn JE.

    Rather it is an exploration as to why there is such hypocricy. Why it is called "bashing" when Edwards is discussed and exposed, but it is a Christian duty when Dollar or Olsteen or Jakes is exposed? Or why it is considered "redundant" and "ad naseum" when Edwards is discussed, but there always seems to be eagerness to expose or discuss the other guys. It doesn't make sense.

    And to be honest it goes both ways.

    I am just unclear as to the apparent double standard and hypocricy. But no one is obligated to explain themselves, but the question is certainly worth asking.

    Personally I think all of them are brought up far too often, and I think all of them border on bashing far too often. And all of them invoke zealous blind defenses from people far too often.

    Just my take.

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    Hey Links,

    I started reading his defense of slavery(opposition to african trade) and I got sick on my stomach. I just closed the page. sigh(but i will finish)...James said I needed to see both sides....lol...Well i tried hubby.

    The excuses(defenses) were really sickening(to me)...on a side note. he was NOT the only minister in that NE area who owned slaves. Some when faced with the extravagent conotation of slave owning, freed their slaves and some like JE kept them til his death and never made provision to be freed.

    In reading I found it interesting too that his first slave he bought(for his wife, i hope) with almost have a year's salary!...what???...That is like me today paying $20K( or more depending on the economy), for someone to prove my stature, not to make me any money(seems stupid, but Christians buy extravagent things now for stature too).

    Also interesting that part of his defense was not a real defense, but a pluck the log out of your own eye first rebuttal.
    This is what I can't wrap my mind around... WHY is it wrong to trade a slave from africa to the caribean, but "institutional"(okay) to trade them within a homeland(where mothers and kids were seperated on the spot in NE)? There was no biblical basis to reject one but allow the other. If I am wrong QS/Links let me know yall...

    edit: Links I have read through some of you posts and see the JE issue is not really your focus here, so you don't have to reply.
    Last edited by lisajames96; 04-11-2007 at 03:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lisajames96 View Post
    WHY is it wrong to trade a slave from africa to the caribean, but "institutional"(okay) to trade them within a homeland(where mothers and kids were seperated on the spot in NE)? There was no biblical basis to reject one but allow the other. If I am wrong QS/Links let me know yall...

    Im glad you picked up on that as well in my earlier post I mentioned him being "inconsistent" this is what I had in mind. Great post by the way I just pray you will not be labeled as a "basher" since you have examined the evidence and have reached a conclusion which is accurate.
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    HCR Veterano lisajames96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet storm View Post
    Im glad you picked up on that as well in my earlier post I mentioned him being "inconsistent" this is what I had in mind. Great post by the way I just pray you will not be labeled as a "basher" since you have examined the evidence and have reached a conclusion which is accurate.
    Well if I can take the "basher" moniker at homeand around friends, I can surely take it on a message board. I love my fam on HCR even if I don't agree.

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    it would really screw with their theology and thoughts on certain subjects.
    Like what?

    Am i the only one that has read Philemon in here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    it would really screw with their theology and thoughts on certain subjects.
    Like what?

    Am i the only one that has read Philemon in here?
    Just read it last week lol. It's what comes to mind right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by king neb View Post
    Am i the only one that has read Philemon in here?
    Are you saying the letter that Paul wrong to Philemon is justification for "enslaving people" so that you can build them up in Christ? I can't answer why Paul would have a "slave", but because He did doesn't mean he was justified, and it doesn't mean Jonthan Edwards, AKA the gully preacher, was justified either.
    foreknew. predestined. called. justified. glorified Romans 8:29-30

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    Quote Originally Posted by lisajames96 View Post
    Hey Links,

    I started reading his defense of slavery(opposition to african trade) and I got sick on my stomach. I just closed the page. sigh(but i will finish)...James said I needed to see both sides....lol...Well i tried hubby.

    The excuses(defenses) were really sickening(to me)...on a side note. he was NOT the only minister in that NE area who owned slaves. Some when faced with the extravagent conotation of slave owning, freed their slaves and some like JE kept them til his death and never made provision to be freed.

    In reading I found it interesting too that his first slave he bought(for his wife, i hope) with almost have a year's salary!...what???...That is like me today paying $20K( or more depending on the economy), for someone to prove my stature, not to make me any money(seems stupid, but Christians buy extravagent things now for stature too).

    Also interesting that part of his defense was not a real defense, but a pluck the log out of your own eye first rebuttal.
    This is what I can't wrap my mind around... WHY is it wrong to trade a slave from africa to the caribean, but "institutional"(okay) to trade them within a homeland(where mothers and kids were seperated on the spot in NE)? There was no biblical basis to reject one but allow the other. If I am wrong QS/Links let me know yall...
    LJ no disagreements here and the pluck the plank from your eye summarization about Edwards defense is on point. Knowing all this it still leads me back to this question.....


    Why is it that the same criteria of someone possibly being a false convert won't be applied to Edwards? I view this as a double standard here on HCR amoungst the brethren. We are quick to jump on a Hagin, or Copeland or Hinn, Dollar and most recently Ted Haggard yet we won't apply that same indignation against Edwards. Why?
    “Christians are not patched-up sinners, they are new creations.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    LJ no disagreements here and the pluck the plank from your eye summarization about Edwards defense is on point. Knowing all this it still leads me back to this question.....
    Why is it that the same criteria of someone possibly being a false convert won't be applied to Edwards? I view this as a double standard here on HCR amoungst the brethren. We are quick to jump on a Hagin, or Copeland or Hinn, Dollar and most recently Ted Haggard yet we won't apply that same indignation against Edwards. Why?
    Well, i am really gonna get in now, but I don't see the difference in any other the names you mentioned, that is why like QS, i wont comment on whether any of them are regenerate or not(like i would before), cause they all fall into the same bucket like me, God will condemn or save them.
    As you get older, you learn that all our lives are an open book, and people will examine(pick apart) your life whether you like it or not. dead or alive...lol
    Last edited by lisajames96; 04-11-2007 at 04:06 PM.

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    HCR Veterano Danielle's Avatar
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    I agree with the views of Links, QS and Lisa.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle View Post
    I agree with the views of Links, QS and Lisa.....
    That's too easy Danielle... you gotta contribute

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    Quote Originally Posted by lisajames96 View Post
    Hey Links,

    I started reading his defense of slavery(opposition to african trade) and I got sick on my stomach. I just closed the page. sigh(but i will finish)...James said I needed to see both sides....lol...Well i tried hubby.

    The excuses(defenses) were really sickening(to me)...on a side note. he was NOT the only minister in that NE area who owned slaves. Some when faced with the extravagent conotation of slave owning, freed their slaves and some like JE kept them til his death and never made provision to be freed.

    In reading I found it interesting too that his first slave he bought(for his wife, i hope) with almost have a year's salary!...what???...That is like me today paying $20K( or more depending on the economy), for someone to prove my stature, not to make me any money(seems stupid, but Christians buy extravagent things now for stature too).

    Also interesting that part of his defense was not a real defense, but a pluck the log out of your own eye first rebuttal.
    This is what I can't wrap my mind around... WHY is it wrong to trade a slave from africa to the caribean, but "institutional"(okay) to trade them within a homeland(where mothers and kids were seperated on the spot in NE)? There was no biblical basis to reject one but allow the other. If I am wrong QS/Links let me know yall...

    edit: Links I have read through some of you posts and see the JE issue is not really your focus here, so you don't have to reply.

    Yeah christians buy extravagent things now days like big Gold and Platinum Chains with Jesus on it....or with a Cross on it. Or they buy Platinum teeth with diamond in them. Or big Whips with big Rims!!!

    Let me stop!!! Mr. Edwards was far far from perfect......and far from an example of what we should be like or even want to be like. But in knowing this we should judge everyone with the same standard. I am all for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lisajames96 View Post
    Hey Links,

    I started reading his defense of slavery(opposition to african trade) and I got sick on my stomach. I just closed the page. sigh(but i will finish)...James said I needed to see both sides....lol...Well i tried hubby.

    The excuses(defenses) were really sickening(to me)...on a side note. he was NOT the only minister in that NE area who owned slaves. Some when faced with the extravagent conotation of slave owning, freed their slaves and some like JE kept them til his death and never made provision to be freed.

    In reading I found it interesting too that his first slave he bought(for his wife, i hope) with almost have a year's salary!...what???...That is like me today paying $20K( or more depending on the economy), for someone to prove my stature, not to make me any money(seems stupid, but Christians buy extravagent things now for stature too).

    Also interesting that part of his defense was not a real defense, but a pluck the log out of your own eye first rebuttal.
    This is what I can't wrap my mind around... WHY is it wrong to trade a slave from africa to the caribean, but "institutional"(okay) to trade them within a homeland(where mothers and kids were seperated on the spot in NE)? There was no biblical basis to reject one but allow the other. If I am wrong QS/Links let me know yall...

    edit: Links I have read through some of you posts and see the JE issue is not really your focus here, so you don't have to reply.
    Has anyone seen Lisa around? I would like to know the book she read?

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