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    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    Default Johnathan Edwards in light of Roots and possible Double Standards

    Let me say this before this thread begins. This thread is not to belittle anyone personally at all!!! This thread is about a big pink elephant mindsets that many either refuse to discuss, are scared to discuss or just want to overlook completely.

    For months now I have seen post after post calling into question the salvation of people on basis of several different criteria. I heard some say that people can have the appearance of a christian and do all the things that christians do yet still be a false convert. Again this is just a small bit of things that have been discussed.

    So with that being said here is the question that I have.

    We have a man such as Johnathan Edwards esteemed by many yet when the criteria of someone that could not be saved Edwards is never talked about. Personally I believe that he is so well respected that many of us want to overlook a big spot on his record and that being that he owned slaves. The argument that him owning slaves was not wrong because the bible mentions the owning of slaves. The argument has also been made that we don't know how Edwards treated his slaves and could have treated his slaves graciously as the bible commands.

    Here is the problem I have with Edwards and his slave ownership. His owning of slaves was not the way slavery is mentioned biblically. Biblically mentioned slavery is NOT American Slavery. I repeat it is not!! The manner in which slaves were brought to America is reprehensable, absolutely reprehensible and we cannot downgrade egregiousness of it. I say this because my wife is a teacher and I have seen first hand how slavery is downplayed in today education system. Unfortunately I think this has carried over into in some fashion to our religious circles.

    Please watch Roots this month or go and peep Amazing Grace about William Wilberforce and see if just by chance you can even diminish the grievous, glaring and heinousness of american slavery.

    Now after having said that I have this next question. Why is it that the same criteria of someone possibly being a false convert won't be applied to Edwards? I view this as a double standard here on HCR amoungst the brethren. We are quick to jump on a Hagin, or Copeland or Hinn, Dollar and most recently Ted Haggard yet we won't apply that same indignation against Edwards. Why?
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 01:02 PM.
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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    Idolatry Masked With Respect.

    that could be one reason why.i dont know how edwards treated his slaves.thats debatable and i would have to research that.or has that already been done with nothing of no help?
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    HCR Veterano DJ Links's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    Idolatry Masked With Respect.

    that could be one reason why.i dont know how edwards treated his slaves.thats debatable and i would have to research that.or has that already been done with nothing of no help?
    Selling slaves in the open market isn't debatable. Edwards had this done.

    1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 01:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    Selling slaves in the open market isn't debatable. Edwards had this done.
    no.what is debatable is his TREATMENT.thats the question that must be answered.im not sure of his TREATMENT of his slaves.Biblically you could own slaves.but if JE was like everyother Christian Slave Master in those days then he was indeed Sinful.but i dont know yet.most Reformed assume he was simply because of his doctrine.i dunno.Creflo has preached some good sermons before too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    no.what is debatable is his TREATMENT.thats the question that must be answered.im not sure of his TREATMENT of his slaves.Biblically you could own slaves.but if JE was like everyother Christian Slave Master in those days then he was indeed Sinful.but i dont know yet.most Reformed assume he was simply because of his doctrine.i dunno.Creflo has preached some good sermons before too.

    How do you treat something good that you believe is less than human.

    Here are some questions in light of American Slavery and the bible.

    What is the biblical criteria for owning slaves?

    Biblically what leads to one becoming a slave?

    From a biblical standpoint what is the length of the time in which a person is to be a slave?

    From a biblical perspective if we wanted a slave could we go out and purchase one?
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 01:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    How do you treat something good that you believe is less than human.

    Here are some questions in light of American Slavery and the bible.

    What is the biblical criteria for owning slaves?

    Biblically what leads to one becoming a slave?

    From a biblical standpoint what is the length of the time in which a person is to be a slave?

    From a biblical perspective if we wanted a slave could we go out and purchase one?

    well like i said.the issue is the TREATMENT.how do we know rather or not Edwards viewed his slaves as "inferior"?


    theres several Biblical reasons for becoming a slave.

    1.captivity.(Israel)
    2.POW(prisoners of War)
    3.Debt(i owe u money.so i do work to pay it off)
    4.Wife(i wanna be your slave for a few years so i can marry your daughter)

    theres several reasons why people were slaves in the Bible.but i will say that PROPER treatment of slaves is Biblical and if Edwards was IMPROPER then he disobeyed GOD and if anyone one here can stick up for him knowing that he was Unbiblical with this issue then you are a sad case.but like i said...i have no idea how Edwards treated his slaves.But i will probably do some research on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    well like i said.the issue is the TREATMENT.how do we know rather or not Edwards viewed his slaves as "inferior"?


    theres several Biblical reasons for becoming a slave.

    1.captivity.(Israel)
    2.POW(prisoners of War)
    3.Debt(i owe u money.so i do work to pay it off)
    4.Wife(i wanna be your slave for a few years so i can marry your daughter)

    theres several reasons why people were slaves in the Bible.but i will say that PROPER treatment of slaves is Biblical and if Edwards was IMPROPER then he disobeyed GOD and if anyone one here can stick up for him knowing that he was Unbiblical with this issue then you are a sad case.but like i said...i have no idea how Edwards treated his slaves.But i will probably do some research on it.
    I know that many will harp on Edwards "treatment" of his slaves but putting them in an open market in his will to be sold like cattle is a pretty good indication don't you think?
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    HCR Ole' Head Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    I know that many will harp on Edwards "treatment" of his slaves but putting them in an open market in his will to be sold like cattle is a pretty good indication don't you think?
    lol.its a start.more examination is needed.i thught QS did some studying on this though?
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    HCR Ole' Head BlackCalvinist's Avatar
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    Let's hope that after you die, people don't dig into your open support of heretics and others who blaspheme the name of God with doctrines of demons and lead folks to hell, and pray that they don't question your life and commitment to Christ and simply call it 'lip service' and 'works salvation' after you've died and drag your name, your family, wife and kids through the mud in the same way.



    Let's also hope they don't find out about any of your secret sins that you've been harboring and plaster them out in public.

    Edwards has been talked about ad infinitum, ad nauseum - both here and in other places (i.e.- a recent discussion on my AACL list - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aacl ). Like John Newton, he owned slaves in his youth. His own writings show he was conflicted on the issue, vacillating back and forth on whether or not it was right. We also know that near the end of his life, his writings were starting to head more toward condemning slavery - but he died young. Newton, on the flip side, lived longer and eventually renounced slavery. Edwards was on the fast track to doing the same. But he died, so we won't know where he would've ended up on the issue.

    Find a new hobby. If your life exists to only bash Edwards, you have hatred in your heart that you need to stop and deal with before the Lord because none of this discussion is designed to 'do good' toward others in any shape, form or fashion.

    Seriously.

    Repent.
    Last edited by BlackCalvinist; 04-11-2007 at 02:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devin View Post
    lol.its a start.more examination is needed.i thught QS did some studying on this though?

    We can go around and around on the subject of him treating his slaves wrong. Thats secondary. The man purchased and owned people stolen from their land.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    Let's hope that people don't dig openly into your support of heretics and question your life after you've died and drag your name, your family, wife and kids through the mud in the same way.

    Should it only happen while we are alive?

    What is your opinion on all the threads and posts that are made calling people heretics and false prophets/teachers for various reasons?

    I was under the impression that you approved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    Let's hope that people don't dig openly into your support of heretics and question your life after you've died and drag your name, your family, wife and kids through the mud in the same way.


    Please don't try and divert and hijack the thread. I did that in Nubia's thread and was wrong for it. For the record I don't support heretics. What gets me worked up is the maliciousness and the sarcasm that people on here use and the "Paul did it" doesn't cut it.
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 02:00 PM.
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    The question still remains......


    Why is it that the same criteria of someone possibly being a false convert won't be applied to Edwards? I view this as a double standard here on HCR amoungst the brethren. We are quick to jump on a Hagin, or Copeland or Hinn, Dollar and most recently Ted Haggard yet we won't apply that same indignation against Edwards. Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Links View Post
    The question still remains......


    Why is it that the same criteria of someone possibly being a false convert won't be applied to Edwards? I view this as a double standard here on HCR amoungst the brethren. We are quick to jump on a Hagin, or Copeland or Hinn, Dollar and most recently Ted Haggard yet we won't apply that same indignation against Edwards. Why?
    Valid question. Very valid.

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    HCR Ole' Head BlackCalvinist's Avatar
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    see above.

    I edited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    Let's hope that after you die, people don't dig into your open support of heretics and others who blaspheme the name of God with doctrines of demons and lead folks to hell, and pray that they don't question your life and commitment to Christ and simply call it 'lip service' and 'works salvation' after you've died and drag your name, your family, wife and kids through the mud in the same way.



    Let's also hope they don't find out about any of your secret sins that you've been harboring and plaster them out in public.

    Edwards has been talked about ad infinitum, ad nauseum - both here and in other places (i.e.- a recent discussion on my AACL list - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aacl ). Like John Newton, he owned slaves in his youth. His own writings show he was conflicted on the issue, vacillating back and forth on whether or not it was right. We also know that near the end of his life, his writings were starting to head more toward condemning slavery - but he died young. Newton, on the flip side, lived longer and eventually renounced slavery. Edwards was on the fast track to doing the same. But he died, so we won't know where he would've ended up on the issue.

    Find a new hobby. If your life exists to only bash Edwards, you have hatred in your heart that you need to stop and deal with before the Lord because none of this discussion is designed to 'do good' toward others in any shape, form or fashion.

    Seriously.

    Repent.
    Edit...

    If you think I am trying to bash Edwards then you obviously didn't read my post in its entirety. I am only using Edwards as an example of a larger problem that exists.

    Please re-read.

    edit....


    Maybe Edwards coming to the defense of an Arminian minister whose stance and doctrine he vehemently opposed would get up your ire.
    Last edited by DJ Links; 04-11-2007 at 02:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    His own writings show he was conflicted on the issue, vacillating back and forth on whether or not it was right. We also know that near the end of his life, his writings were starting to head more toward condemning slavery - but he died young.
    I didnt plan on making any comments on the thread but I have to ask what you are referring to here. I know that in time Edwards condemned the "slave trade" (even though his position was inconsistent how do you condemen the "trade" but benefit from it) but what in his writings indicates that he was "conflicted on the issue, vacillatiing bakc and forth on whether or not it was right" or where do you find in his writings that he "started to head more toward condemning slavery". I am not saying that you are wrong but I have researched him quite well and I simply have not come to this conclusion. What I do see in his writings is this

    In a letter, Edwards wrote in his own defense, "If [the critics of slave owners] continue to cry out against those who keep Negro slaves," they would show themselves to be hypocrites, because they too benefited from the slave trade. "Let them also fully and thoroughly vindicate themselves and their own practice in partaking of negroes' slavery," he charged, "or confess that there is no hurt in partaking in it," otherwise "let 'em own that their objections are not conscientious."
    http://www.yaleslavery.org/WhoYaleHonors/je.html

    I see a defense of slavery as indicated above as well as a rebuke against those who opposed it. Now it is true that Edwards is dead and we can not sit down and interview the cat but for personal educational purposes if he started to change his theology when it came to slavery I would like to know. I do not condemn Edwards or even believe him to be unregenerate (since thats not my place) but I would like to see evidence of his struggle over the issue. Grace & Peace
    Last edited by Quiet storm; 04-11-2007 at 02:15 PM.
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    From what I can tell, the point of the thread is what is the distinction between judging Creflo Dollar or Joel Olsteen or Rob Bell and Jonathan Edwards?

    It seems that it is often the same people who have no problem "bashing" (since that is the word being used here) these folks, are also the same ones who find offense when it is done in respects to Edwards.

    I think this is the "double standard" Links referred to. Perhaps someone can explain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    From what I can tell, the point of the thread is what is the distinction between judging Creflo Dollar or Joel Olsteen or Rob Bell and Jonathan Edwards?

    It seems that it is often the same people who have no problem "bashing" (since that is the word being used here) these folks, are also the same ones who find offense when it is done in respects to Edwards.

    I think this is the "double standard" Links referred to. Perhaps someone can explain?

    Eternal that is the point to the this thread!!!!!!

    Edwards has alway been a side issue to me in regards to this bigger issue that no one seems to want to answer.
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    ummmm...owning a slave and saying that Christ become satan on the cross really don't compare in my book.

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