Forcing meat down a baby's throat...

[dremarshall]

There's a difference in being a babe and being childish, though. Some people shake their bottles in your face and refuse to grow or want any parts of growth and use 'babe' as an excuse for immaturity.

God doesn't save people for them to remain spiritual babes. So if you've been (supposedly) walking with the Lord for several years, you shouldn't be complaining about solid food.......

Good wording.

[BlackCalvinist]

Small consideration....


Actually a BIG one.....

1 Cor. 2:11-16 tells us that [b]because[/i] we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us (believers), we are able to understand the things of God. That does include doctrine and theology.

In english: a true believer WILL be able to understand more things of the faith as time goes on and not be stuck on the 'first things' of the gospel.

God Himself has made sure of it.


So with some folks, the issue is not intellectual, but a matter of the will and previous repetetive ingrown decisions everyday being a part of the bottle-shaking.....

[dremarshall]

Small consideration....


Actually a BIG one.....

1 Cor. 2:11-16 tells us that because[/i] we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us (believers), we are able to understand the things of God. That does include doctrine and theology.

In english: a true believer WILL be able to understand more things of the faith as time goes on and not be stuck on the 'first things' of the gospel.

God Himself has made sure of it.


[b]So with some folks, the issue is not intellectual, but a matter of the will and previous repetetive ingrown decisions everyday being a part of the bottle-shaking.....

I agree with this but, BUT I got a question. Why when speaking of spiritual stuff brothers always throw in that "milk" when it should be common sense. For instance if I say I love my family more than anything dudes go you should love God 1st. Aint that Common Sense!!! shouldn't that be 1st on our agenda.

[BlackCalvinist]

I agree with this but, BUT I got a question. Why when speaking of spiritual stuff brothers always throw in that "milk" when it should be common sense. For instance if I say I love my family more than anything dudes go you should love God 1st. Aint that Common Sense!!! shouldn't that be 1st on our agenda.

Common sense isn't so common anymore.

It's real easy to not only say that you love your family more than anything else, but actually live that way as well - even if your lips claim to love God first......feel me ?

It's like a guy claiming to love God first and foremost..... but engaging in premarital sex. Lips say one thing, hips say another. So the 'reminder' even in this seemingly 'small' area is always a good one.

That's why the scrips have to remind us over and over and over again of Lev. 19:18 - love your neighbor as you would yourself. Not because love is the most important thing, but rather because we forget.

[ministerbj]

Look I'm inclined to give my opinion. But doesn't anyone notice that when opinions are brought up we all run around in circles?

Every Christian does grow @ a different rate. So how do we know when it's time to give more solid food? Let the Spirit near witness. Honestly, we're all full of him but it seems we'd rather talk amongst ourselves to find solutions rather than just listen to the Lord. You know a tree by its fruit. Likewise you'll know when a person is ready by the maturity they show. And while in some cases the responses on this board are indicative of maturity, the sneaky thing about online communities is that anyone can masquerade as someone they're not (and that does include expressions of false humility).

In the end, I'm just saying that we're trying a little too hard to figure things out on our own and listening to ourselves way more than we're listening to the simple and practical wisdom that the Holy Spirit is trying to whisper to us. Slow to speak, quick to hear. Seriously. For real.

yo i agree man....

[dogfight!]

11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters...9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat...19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up...7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God...

... in context

[dogfight!]

bump

[Redeemed]

Small consideration....


Actually a BIG one.....

1 Cor. 2:11-16 tells us that [b]because[/i] we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us (believers), we are able to understand the things of God. That does include doctrine and theology.

In english: a true believer WILL be able to understand more things of the faith as time goes on and not be stuck on the 'first things' of the gospel.

God Himself has made sure of it.


So with some folks, the issue is not intellectual, but a matter of the will and previous repetetive ingrown decisions everyday being a part of the bottle-shaking.....

in short please do feed the baby

[Danielle]

To be honest, I have friends that have been saved for years and are just NOW learning how to operate in the basic and on the basic levels of Christianity. The "milk" levels, in which they fully surrender their will over the God and actually make Jesus Christ not only savior but LORD of their lives and actually live that out. And to be honest, it should not have taken that excessive amount of time to actually be discipled and taught on those principles.The problem was not the actually person in that case, but that there were not even fed the milk that was essential for new babe spiritually growth, so of course how could they digest and understand the meat, it was too much when they got into a good bible teaching church, things just went totally over their heads.

So some may need to actually be fed the milk over again in depth, because of past church's that were not doing their job. They were not even taught the basics. So yes it is essential that things babe stature be learned and embedded, before we even think about any advancement on those things that consist of meat.

But there needs to be some accountability there, to asset the person in maturing to those things on the meat level. Not necessarily forcing them, but helping them to grown to that point. It is spiritually deadly to stay stagnated, and not move or progress so there has got to be something there to challenge a person's growth, unfortunately some churches are failing in this area; NOT making disciples, so that does contribute to some extent how a person could have been saved 5 years ago, but still not even aware of the essentials of Discipleship.

[BlackCalvinist]

To be honest, I have friends that have been saved for years and are just NOW learning how to operate in the basic and on the basic levels of Christianity. The "milk" levels, in which they fully surrender their will over the God and actually make Jesus Christ not only savior but LORD of their lives and actually live that out. And to be honest, it should not have taken that excessive amount of time to actually be discipled and taught on those principles.The problem was not the actually person in that case, but that there were not even fed the milk that was essential for new babe spiritually growth, so of course how could they digest and understand the meat, it was too much when they got into a good bible teaching church, things just went totally over their heads.

So some may need to actually be fed the milk over again in depth, because of past church's that were not doing their job. They were not even taught the basics. So yes it is essential that things babe stature be learned and embedded, before we even think about any advancement on those things that consist of meat.

But there needs to be some accountability there, to asset the person in maturing to those things on the meat level. Not necessarily forcing them, but helping them to grown to that point. It is spiritually deadly to stay stagnated, and not move or progress so there has got to be something there to challenge a person's growth, unfortunately some churches are failing in this area; NOT making disciples, so that does contribute to some extent how a person could have been saved 5 years ago, but still not even aware of the essentials of Discipleship.

Good post.

No. I take that back.

EXCELLENT post.

Finding a church that's actually going to teach you sound doctrine is getting harder to find nowadays, though.....

[dremarshall]

Common sense isn't so common anymore.

It's real easy to not only say that you love your family more than anything else, but actually live that way as well - even if your lips claim to love God first......feel me ?

It's like a guy claiming to love God first and foremost..... but engaging in premarital sex. Lips say one thing, hips say another. So the 'reminder' even in this seemingly 'small' area is always a good one.

That's why the scrips have to remind us over and over and over again of Lev. 19:18 - love your neighbor as you would yourself. Not because love is the most important thing, but rather because we forget.

Real talk there. Now I speak freom a father's standpoint, you're a teacher so you'll understand. I can't give my 4 month old daughter steak from my plate, BUT I can go to the store & get her gerber beef for babies. She is getting meat, but it's in a different form. So there are ways of getting meat, but maybe not from your plate. Also I can chew it up real good & give her a small portion, but for the most part, I have to discern when she needs meat & when she needs milk. Now after a small serving of meat, sometime she needs a bottle, so I give it to her. As a father I have to look at the signs & discern when she needs more food, there's no time table in the bible or guideline to serving meat, or how to's on preparing meat. We have to discern. Now I'll say this one thing lacking in Christianity is the heart of the father. God the father yes, but also the heart to know how to feed the sheep. See we can have all the "Meat" in the world, but if we force feed some, we will Kill them. It's so coll how Jesus would leave the 99 sheep for the one, but we at time cater to the intellectuals & leave toe babes out like "you don't believe what I believe, your doctrine this & that" Where Jesus would leave the 99 to go get that one, and make sure he is safe. Where's that heart, serve what you want, but it will suck if it's their LAST MEAL!

[BlackCalvinist]

Well thought out post, fam.

Well thought out and well said. You're absolutely right - especially on the 'heart of a Father' thing. And the illustration is great. I have a few students whom I've had to be an 'extra daddy' (or in some cases DADDY) to during the course of my teaching career and I've had to 'chew the food for them' many times.

The problems I see, though (I see it on this board often) is that in the great majority of cases (not ALL, but the majority) the people complaining about having meat shoved down throats very often attack those presenting the meat before they have first taken the time to listen. Too much 'quick to speak and slow to listen' instead of the opposite.

Here's an example I gave my kids today.

This morning, the entertainment segment of the news announced that the AMA nominations were out. I was half asleep, but remembered that Mary J. Blige was nominated for album of the year. Anyway, I asked my kids to give me names of two GOOD rappers, one OK rapper and one WACK rapper. One of my classes picked Luda, T.I., Yung Joc and..... Ja Rule. LOL

So I did the 'And the winner is......' did a long pause.... and said 'Ja Rule!' and most of the class started booing (typical). I asked them WHY they think Ja won and most had no idea. I told them 'Yeah... after all, everyone you know and hang with and see on BET listens to TI, Luda and even Yung Joc, right ?" Most nodded.

I then pointed them to the fact that just because everyone they hang around listens to and agrees with them (or mostly everyone), that doesn't mean that the entire world (or even all kids their age) agree because culture can be extremely different in other areas of the country - which is where a lot of record sales for Ja Rule come from.

I said, for example, in somewhere out west like Kansas, where the majority of radio stations play *some* but not *all* of the music they play and mix R & B, Pop, Rock and some hip hop, Ja Rule may be more popular - especially if there are more people out there than here where they live.

So on record sales alone, Ja wins because there are more people out there that will buy his album than there are people here who will buy other people's albums to outsell him. The culture and tastes and values (as far as what makes a 'good rapper' and 'what sounds good') might be slightly different.

Which means: you need to realize that there's a lot more to the country, the music industry and the world, than the 1000 square blocks of PG County, DC and upper VA that you live in and hang around.

In like fashion, we'll have people who've never actually studied (and a surface reading is not 'study' anymore than 'study' is simply skimming a textbook and expecting to know its' contents) the doctrine of election simply hear that "Calvinists believe that God chooses who gets saved and who doesn't" and say 'well, that's not Biblical! What possible evidence could they have to say that if there's so many passages that give men a choice ?'

Most have never heard anything different from all of the people they've hung around in the church, all the churches they've been associated with, all the books they read and all the TV church shows they watch. They are limited in their exposure to things outside of their 'church culture' the same way my kids are limited to things outside of their cultural milleu.

They have been taught to go with surface readings of the text instead of in-depth studies of what words actually mean (the word 'foreknown' for example in Romans 8:29) and simply go with what they think it might mean or what someone told them without examining the word in other contexts and looking to see if what they believe is consistent with what the word actually means.

So when they come into a thread attacking something they haven't studied (for example 'How can you believe that ? It's demonic! satan was the first Calvinist!')..... and get a lengthy, scripture filled response, calling that 'forcing meat down a baby's throat' wouldn't apply. The bulk of exchanges on this board involving Calvinism vs Arminianism have fallen under this category. People who, either immature in their handling of the word, or who have been taught how to 'wrongly divide' the word of God and (other than hearing about it breifly or in a negative context) only heard of Calvinism and never had it explained or never examined the scriptural arguments.... come forward bashing. Waving their bottles.

To be fair, there have been some people who HAVE NOT responded properly when a good question from a 'bottle waver' has come up. I can remember one person being very insulting to Lynaz24, calling his beliefs 'willy nilly free will' in some shape or another and no real dialogue happenning. I can also think of a certain brother who has often been a bit too harsh in many of his responses when a 'Kindler Gentler Calvinism' would've been MUCH more appropriate.

There are people who simply want answers and not arguments. There's a REAL desire to grow - or at least deal FAIRLY with what others believe. Those people should not be put off to the side, ignored, or cast aside.

A while back (before the board got nuked), montenell made a comment in my 'Calling all non-Calvinists with good questions' thread. He said "Hey man, I actually got something out of this thread, this is good!" I'd like to see more discussions conducted like this and I'd like to see people not be 'afraid of theological discussions' (which I see a lot of on here). Contrary to popular belief or stereotype, they all don't turn bad and they're not 'arguments'.

People need to grow up and not be so thin-skinned that they get offended at everything - including beliefs that they haven't studied in detail enough to be able to make an INFORMED rejection.

Hence, I have the theo board rules up.

So the whole 'milk' thing.... seriously - let's stop leaning on it as an excuse. Babies weren't meant to be on milk forever. People need to take responsibility for their growth and not simply complain that everything is going over their heads. The Bible and the Gospel are a lot more than 'Jesus loves me, died for me so I can have eternal life'.

[BlackCalvinist]

Check the growth pattern below on one particular doctrine - salvation (and even then...only one or two aspects of it).

Christ is the Creator, took on human flesh, died for sinners, calls all men to repentance = milk (theology) - Acts 4:8-12, 17:23-31

Christ's death wasn't just random or a 'plan B' - He came to die to redeem men (Matthew 1:19-21) - milk (still theology)

Yeah, it was planned.... all of it (Acts 4:27-30). - applesauce (still theology)

God usually works according to a plan (Proverbs 16, Isaiah 40-49, Genesis 45:3-8, 50:20) and nothing catches Him off guard - still applesauce...but with real bits of apples.... and it's theology.

You didn't come to Christ because you were smarter than everyone else, better than anyone else... but because God had mercy on you and took the scales off your eyes and opened them to see the truth of the gospel (i.e.- Lydia in Acts 16). YOU were DEAD in sin (Eph. 2:1-3). You didn't seek God... God sought YOU (John 15:16). - that slushy baby food with real meat bits in it.

Christ's death wasn't generic - it was actually meant to save people, not just make people 'savable' or just provide for a nameless, faceless, personless 'group' called 'the church' - strained meat in juice w/ crushed peas (John 10:11-18) - still theology....

The benefits of Christ' death (Ephesians 1) are applied to all those who believe.... still strained meat....still theology....

Just like other things in God's economy, the salvation of the people whom God saves is 'planned' as well.... and from ETERNITY (Ephesians 1 still....)
beef brisket, sliced thin, cut up small....

The redemption of God's elect from eternity past was decreed by God without regard to anything else other than God's own wise counsel (Eph. 1:11, Romans 9:16-18) - 8 Oz Applebees sirloin

The point of redemption isn't YOU at all...but God's glory via showing His grace and riches of His mercy upon those He has decided would be the recipients of His love and grace (Romans 9:19-23) - Porterhouse

God's hand is in ALL of human history (back to Isaiah 40-49), working all things according to His wise and Sovereign will and counsel- even with those who disobey Him (Pharoah - Romans 9:14-16), so that all different aspects of His glory will be equally and eternally displayed upon both those whom He 'prepared' as vessels of dishonor (still Romans 9:19-23, 11:25-36) - namely His justice, wrath and righteousness (Remember Romans 1:18-20 ?) - as well as those whom He chooses to show mercy and riches to.... again, according to nothing else other than His own Sovereign will and eternal wisdom. So no.... Christ didn't 'take the fall and thought of ME above all'....rather, He thought of doing THE FATHER'S WILL and THE GLORY OF GOD above all. - Porterhouse and Angus

And each one of these levels of growth and understanding has practical implications to it for your daily life, your relationships, worship, your view of God, your view of calamity and tragedy and other trials in life, will challenge you to GROW in both your trust of a God who is Sovereign over all areas of life, depend less on YOURSELF, truly believe that even the flat tire, burnt down house and such are ALL eventually working for YOUR BEST 'GOOD' (Romans 8:28) and it's all a part of God's Sovereign purpose for your life and more things than I have space to write about here.

Notice the pattern: Our daily lives and the practical day-to-day stuff is to be BUILT upon a right view of God, sin, man, salvation and such.

So if one is taught something that isn't even MILK, but similac (i.e.- God is only responsible for the good and Satan is responsible for all of the 'bad things that happen'), our view of God, our approach to life, our view of prayer and thoughts on the purpose and power of it, our view of tragedy, reliance upon God (a God who is only apparently 'partially' Sovereign over the circumstances of life, so we must rely on our own daily 'confessions' and the 'creative power in our tongue and words') and reliance upon self, personal responsibility for things in life..... will ALL be affected - TREMENDOUSLY.

This is why right theology and doctrine are important. And this is why some folks are still immature in the faith - they haven't gotten past the slushy baby food. And if they're being taught incorrectly in other areas, a lopsided view of God, man, salvation, etc.... will affect a myriad of areas in their life.

This is why Paul tells Timothy: "Carefully and diligently keep an eye on your life and doctrine closely. Continue in doing both. In doing so, you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Tim. 4:16 - my translation)
See also 2 Tim. 3:10.

I didn't expect this to run this long, but I hope you take the time to read it in detail and really think it through (not just skim it).

Grace and Peace,
Kerry