Johnathan Edwards in light of Roots and possible Double Standards

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Originally Posted by illuminaticx

So Edwards was a false convert? Is that was is being argued?

J =]

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No, the topic/what is being argued is the apparent double standard that is placed on these kinds of conversations, ie JE vs. Creflo/Olsteen/TD Jakes, etc.

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Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist

Two things.

#1 - the text doesn't say slave trader. It says kidnapper or manstealer. That's not the same as a slave trader or a slave owner. Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself in Col. 3 and Ephesians 6.

#2 - Edwards didn't kidnap or steal his slaves. He bought them. :)

and a third - American slavery was wrong and his owning of slaves and some of his responses were wrong. However, as noted earlier, he struggled with the issue at times. He's written contradictory things about it in his life.......so at the very least, it was a conscience issue.... exactly what we would expect to find when a BELIEVER tries to justify sin.

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1. True, but that is implied, especially in light of Exodus 21:16 don't you think? Isn't that the implication and what is being talked about?

2. Isn't it the participation in the slave trade that is being condemned? And doesn't buying and supporting the system inherently condone its methods? John Wesley and others were adamantly against this type of stuff.

3. I am unsure how conflicted he was, but I can accept that.

I think the main point of the thread that has largely been missed by folks is the apparent double standard in these convos.

peace.

actually.i would say the MAIN issue is that for the Longest we have come to believe that the Reformed JE Fan Base doesnt Care about this issue and they see him as Justified and that it wasnt a bad thing.thats what the MAIN issue was and is now.this is why i created a thread where i challenge the JE Camp to say that "JE was wrong" so we can dead.cats saying im starting drama and fueling the fire.im trynna bring clarity.but no one has accepted that.

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Originally Posted by Devin

actually.i would say the MAIN issue is that for the Longest we have come to believe that the Reformed JE Fan Base doesnt Care about this issue and they see him as Justified and that it wasnt a bad thing.thats what the MAIN issue was and is now.this is why i created a thread where i challenge the JE Camp to say that "JE was wrong" so we can dead.cats saying im starting drama and fueling the fire.im trynna bring clarity.but no one has accepted that.

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Dude you are the HCR Parrot

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Originally Posted by dremarshall

Dude you are the HCR Parrot

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excuse me?

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Originally Posted by DJ Links

Seal you prove the point of my question so well. Why is Edwards not held to the same scrutiny that other ministers in modern day times held to.

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Simple, Edwards preached Truth these other guys don't. If you don't like it, prove Edwards doctrine wrong. We all know his lifestyle was wrong and we have plenty of examples in Scripture of the wrong lifestyle. But I don't see you starting post on Samson, Solomon, or David. You are very selective therefore showing your bias against Edwards not only b/c of his Doctrine but b/c he's a white man who owned slaves (yo peoples).

To all ya'll African folks. I have a question for you. Why don't ya'll ever get mad at those of Spanish decent? The Spaniards were trading slaves like crazy, but I don't see anyone or any movies on the Spaniards. The next time you see a Puerto Rican, Dominican, or whatever, I want you to have that same indignation that you have against your Caucasian brothers and sisters. Let me see ya'll get mad at Vic b/c his ancenstors use to trade, rape, and sell your ancenstors back in the day to. Whoops..... That will be unbearable for you all to think, huh? Know your history folks...

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Originally Posted by DJ Links

Your issue seems to be an issue with Edwards doctrine. If that is the case I have something for you.....

Here is a quote from mouth of JE himself -

http://www.dinsdoc.com/goodell-1-1-23.htm

Edwards own words convict himself. Here is the scripture that he agrees with -



Here is exerpt from an essay on Samuel Hopkins one of JE students. Check out the mindset of the time and the reason why slaves were owned and if some doctrine was off here.....

http://www.aplacefortruth.org/hopkins.htm

I will give JE props for preaching the gospel to his slaves, but peep what he thought of Africans and Indians before salvation and what their reward would be in heaven.

http://www.historycooperative.org/jo...4/minkema.html

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Okay, how have I proved you right??? Have I said anywhere in my post that I agreed with Edwards on this point? Is there anyone on this board that you have seen me agree with in every single point? Edwards was a man of his time and was skewed in his view of Equality and the Curse of Ham is Heretical. I'd boom Edwards on this point if he were alive, but he's not. But was his Doctrine off when it came to Justification by Faith Alone???? Was his Doctrine off on the Sovereignty of God??? Need I say more? Africans did get access to the Gospel and Edwards did Baptize his Slaves which is something you don't see in Roots. His son also became one of the leading Abolitionist of his day but I don't see you focused on that. You are after of the flaws of the man and his Character. We take the Truth that he spoke and spit out the bones. But we'd all have to agree that the slaves of Edwards who received Salvation were blessed.

I'll tell you what I think the real problem is. You're mad b/c God gave this Slave owning White Man insight into his Word that is far superior then who you want it to be. Like Creflo, Jakes, Long, and friends. Your post rink with your prejudice b/c you ain't Racist b/c you have to no power to discriminate against anyone. The more you come against the flaws of a man the more you expose your flaws. You struggle to trust in the God who's providence reigns through the Earth to use such a thing like slavery to give Africans access to the Gospel. Continue to shake your fist at the God of History and the Future b/c of something you never went through. But just like God was with Israel in Babylon, God was with my people in America.

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Originally Posted by DJ Links

Again Seal I am just showing you these things to say that the info is out there on Edwards but people decide to overlook it. If you are going to go after others ie; Dollar then use that same indignation to those that are in your own camp.

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Yeah right, this isn't what you're getting at, you want me to use this same indignation against the White Man. You act as if Edwards slave owning was just an issue that was overlooked. Please.... Dollar? Not worth my time to go after Dollar and Friends anymore b/c they've already been dealt with. You need to go Repent like BC said to you or someone.

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Originally Posted by seal

Simple, Edwards preached Truth these other guys don't. If you don't like it, prove Edwards doctrine wrong. We all know his lifestyle was wrong and we have plenty of examples in Scripture of the wrong lifestyle. But I don't see you starting post on Samson, Solomon, or David. You are very selective therefore showing your bias against Edwards not only b/c of his Doctrine but b/c he's a white man who owned slaves (yo peoples).

To all ya'll African folks. I have a question for you. Why don't ya'll ever get mad at those of Spanish decent? The Spaniards were trading slaves like crazy, but I don't see anyone or any movies on the Spaniards. The next time you see a Puerto Rican, Dominican, or whatever, I want you to have that same indignation that you have against your Caucasian brothers and sisters. Let me see ya'll get mad at Vic b/c his ancenstors use to trade, rape, and sell your ancenstors back in the day to. Whoops..... That will be unbearable for you all to think, huh? Know your history folks...



Okay, how have I proved you right??? Have I said anywhere in my post that I agreed with Edwards on this point? Is there anyone on this board that you have seen me agree with in every single point? Edwards was a man of his time and was skewed in his view of Equality and the Curse of Ham is Heretical. I'd boom Edwards on this point if he were alive, but he's not. But was his Doctrine off when it came to Justification by Faith Alone???? Was his Doctrine off on the Sovereignty of God??? Need I say more? Africans did get access to the Gospel and Edwards did Baptize his Slaves which is something you don't see in Roots. His son also became one of the leading Abolitionist of his day but I don't see you focused on that. You are after of the flaws of the man and his Character. We take the Truth that he spoke and spit out the bones. But we'd all have to agree that the slaves of Edwards who received Salvation were blessed.

I'll tell you what I think the real problem is. You're mad b/c God gave this Slave owning White Man insight into his Word that is far superior then who you want it to be. Like Creflo, Jakes, Long, and friends. Your post rink with your prejudice b/c you ain't Racist b/c you have to no power to discriminate against anyone. The more you come against the flaws of a man the more you expose your flaws. You struggle to trust in the God who's providence reigns through the Earth to use such a thing like slavery to give Africans access to the Gospel. Continue to shake your fist at the God of History and the Future b/c of something you never went through. But just like God was with Israel in Babylon, God was with my people in America.



Yeah right, this isn't what you're getting at, you want me to use this same indignation against the White Man. You act as if Edwards slave owning was just an issue that was overlooked. Please.... Dollar? Not worth my time to go after Dollar and Friends anymore b/c they've already been dealt with. You need to go Repent like BC said to you or someone.

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God bless you fam. Seriously!!! God bless you.

Love you brother!!! Really.

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Originally Posted by Devin

actually.i would say the MAIN issue is that for the Longest we have come to believe that the Reformed JE Fan Base doesnt Care about this issue and they see him as Justified and that it wasnt a bad thing.thats what the MAIN issue was and is now.this is why i created a thread where i challenge the JE Camp to say that "JE was wrong" so we can dead.cats saying im starting drama and fueling the fire.im trynna bring clarity.but no one has accepted that.

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Referring to those who enjoy the writings of Dr. Edwards as a fan base is not an accurate depiction and is quite insulting. What you're doing indirectly is accusing those who enjoy his works of being carnal as the Corinthians were in 1 Cor. 3. Some saying, "I am of Paul", others saying "I am of Apollos." I think I can speak for most of us in that we'd never put a man on a pedestal and "follow" him. People do that for us. They say we follow Calvin, but that's not true, either. I respect Calvin's teaching, but I am no follower of him. We follow Christ, and stick as close to the Scripture as possible.

Also, for you to say that we don't care that he owned slaves is a lie. You may asuume to know something, but you have no idea. Therefore, please don't speak as if you know something about what I personally think. If Edwards repented and placed his trust in the Savior, then he is Justified by faith alone, not by works. So, you're right. I think we do see HIM as justified, even if his actions were not justified when it comes to slaveholding.

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Originally Posted by Holy Culture Radio

So a life long pattern of UNJUSTIFIED actions somehow makes you think he was justified or saved? (scratching my head)...

Why do you think he was even saved?

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Vic, you hit the nail on the head. Truth is, if the Holy Spirit was working in him (as some claim), he would have been having a war inside of him. Evidently he did not, because his actions state that much. While our actions don't get us into Heaven, our actions are always a reflection of who we are and who we belong to.

An in regard to Jonathan Edwards, this would explain his lack of "love". Dude was mean spirited (in my opinion.) Not exactly a characteristic of Christ.

Anyway...

Hey fam;
Links came to me about this post because he wasn't understanding some things that were being discussed. He and I talked and see some things that could have been said or done differently from the outset, but that is the past and there's no changing that.

Concerning the issue of the double standard in the light of the J. Edwards example, may I ask that you all consider this:

In 100+ years, many of you will have had books, albums, children, and other followings. Can a Christian question your faith because of what it is that you have produced?

If so, are they really questioning faith, or faith thru the lens of their understood culture?

As I stated to Links, I am quick to throw judgement in a lot of places. But like B. Morr's CD so nicely said, should I pray for a change in circumstance or a change in my reactions? You see, it is my reactions that create that fruit that is left for people not named me to bear witness of. The reactions here have been such that ALL OF US, will be questioned in light of HCR being something of God, or something of culture that tried to look like God's work, but fell far short.

I admonish all of you, check your cards at the door in the case of throwing judgement. Sure, we all make mistakes and speak quickly. But it pays a lot more attention to read slowly and consider your words before speaking. When you do not, the reaction you leave equals the fruit that people will eventually only share about you.

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Originally Posted by jnorman88

Did JE "teach" about slavery? If so then people can attack his false teaching just like people attack other false teachings.

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JNorman, he didn't preach it... HE LIVED IT.

RJ of MMM

We (well, at least not me) are not talking about Christians who sin and repent. We are talking about "Christians" who have REPEATEDLY walked in error in their sin, without repentance. Two different things. So while I agree with you, we need to be careful in judging and casting stones, there is a problem with "Christians" who choose to habitually sin.

So that can be sexual immorality, money, or [drumroll please] owning slaves.

Those who belong to God have a heart to purge themselves of such things. At least from what folks can tell, the "highly esteemed by many it seems" John Edwards did not display such a trait, at least not when it came to owning slaves.

I began listening to this sermon by Sherard Burns from the conference John Piper had called "A God-Entranced Vision of All Things." I have yet to finish listening to this sermon but he sheds some light on the issue being discussed here. Below is the link.

Sherard Burns - The Riches of Edwards for All Races

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Originally Posted by Holy Culture Radio

exactly... it doesnt even have to be owning slaves.

What if we replaced that with um...lets say cheating on your wife.

Lets say Mr. Edwards was one of the major players in an effort to advocate adultery! He preached the same message, wrote the same books, but just had a love (lust) for cheating on his wife, and being unapoligetic about it. In fact, lets say for arguements sake that everyone in his state also supported the idea of adultery! It was "the common, accepted practice of his day" (hahahha, I just love when people use that as the excuse...).

Would you still say Mr. Edwards was dope, want to put his picture up on your shirts, read all his book, quote his sermons, etc etc.

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Man, we drinking the same kool-aid today...

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Originally Posted by Moody

RJ of MMM

We (well, at least not me) are not talking about Christians who sin and repent. We are talking about "Christians" who have REPEATEDLY walked in error in their sin, without repentance. Two different things. So while I agree with you, we need to be careful in judging and casting stones, there is a problem with "Christians" who choose to habitually sin.

So that can be sexual immorality, money, or [drumroll please] owning slaves.

Those who belong to God have a heart to purge themselves of such things. At least from what folks can tell, the "highly esteemed by many it seems" John Edwards did not display such a trait, at least not when it came to owning slaves.

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Amen to that.
I was referring to the orig post that spoke on the HCR double standard, not so much the the sin. You make a great point; I should be been more clear in mine.

Thanks for the clearing.

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Originally Posted by RJ of MMM

Amen to that.
I was referring to the orig post that spoke on the HCR double standard, not so much the the sin. You make a great point; I should be been more clear in mine.

Thanks for the clearing.

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Actually, you are right too. The original post was about the double standard created. So really, this has kind of come full circle. Those who habitually sin, WITHOUT a heart of repentance (or any assemblance of wanting to repent) is someone to stay away from...

Really, a lot of this has come down to some taking exception that others would put Jonathan Edwards in the same "heretic" camp (I use heretic loosely here) that JE followers put others in.

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Originally Posted by Holy Culture Radio

exactly... it doesnt even have to be owning slaves.

What if we replaced that with um...lets say cheating on your wife.

Lets say Mr. Edwards was one of the major players in an effort to advocate adultery! He preached the same message, wrote the same books, but just had a love (lust) for cheating on his wife, and being unapoligetic about it. In fact, lets say for arguements sake that everyone in his state also supported the idea of adultery! It was "the common, accepted practice of his day" (hahahha, I just love when people use that as the excuse...).

Would you still say Mr. Edwards was dope, want to put his picture up on your shirts, read all his book, quote his sermons, etc etc.

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Thank You! It's really this simple. We cop plees for those who's views we agree with, real talk.

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Originally Posted by Holy Culture Radio

Expositor, what is the difference between him owning slaves his entire life, and being a life long polygimist? (i know i murked that word).

Ok, he was justified by faith alone right? But he was continually living a lifestyle that dispite what his peers thought, was biblically WRRRRRRONG, SINFUL, AMORAL, etc.

The Fact that he knew scripture, and was a good teacher it totally and utterly irrelavant. Lets just say for instance, that John Piper was also a blatant, outspoken advocate of RACISM. Do you neglect or overlook the fact the guy is DEAD wrong? or do you say, "well, works dont get you into heaven, bla bla bla, he knows his bible and has deep insight, bla bla bla".

I would say your ACTIONS towards those other than white DO NOT ALIGN itself with one who claims to be a servant of The Most High God.... DESPITE your biblical knowledge. Naw mean.

Even my Pastor (Eric Mason) was like "dope preacher, dope author, but DEAD DEAD DEAD wrong and unGodly for owning slaves!"

Does being a dope preacher and a dope author even mean he was saved? Nope.

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Amen. I agree with you, mostly. I was just telling Kerry last night on the phone that if something came out concerning Piper admitting that he had been living in some unrepentant sin, then I would no longer support John Piper. I'd pray for him and pray that he'd see the truth of the gospel and repent. But I would no longer support him. Now, that doesn't mean that I'd count everything he's ever taught as dung. I'd still see truth as truth. If the teaching is true, then I can listen to the teaching.

Notice also in my statement, that I said "If" Edwards repented and trusted in Christ, then he is justified before God. I can't say without a shadow of a doubt that he was truly converted, because I am not Dr. Edwards or God.

Let's use a hypothetical for a moment. Let's just SAY that listening to secular music is a terrible offense to God. Let's forget about the terrible offense to others, because our sin is primarily vertical, against God, as David rightly understood when he said, "Against you only have I sinned". So, again, let's just say that it's an offense to God; sin. But, what if you're not convinced that it is, and you listen to 50 Cent all day, every day. If it is considered sin (and please, no one think that I am saying it is; it's hypothetical), then you are in direct violation of God's law and you are living habitually sinful.

Now, let's say you're a teacher of the Word who is vascillating back and forth, trying to figure out whether or not it's sin. So, your stance changes. You flip flop back and forth. People accuse you of not choosing a position and sticking by it. And then they begin to question the validity of your ministry, saying that you're living in sin, when you're not really convinced one way or the other. How would you feel about that?

This next part isn't aimed at anyone in particular:

I've never once said or believed that it was right for anyone to ever own slaves...ever. I believe (are you reading this Devin?) that Edwards was DEAD DEAD DEAD wrong, just like Pastor Mason said, but he was a brilliant teacher. Anyone who actually reads his writings would say so, unless they're biased because of his Reformed view. I've read Edwards works and wept while reading them, because of his high view of God and God's holiness. Read or listen to "The Excellency of Christ" (it's not just a Tim Brindle song) and see if your view of Christ isn't changed for the better.

When dealing with the works of Edwards, I seek to find out if he is sticking close to the Scriptures. I can't judge the morality of a man who is dead and cannot speak from himself. I can say that I believe he was wrong, and I do, but it doesn't take away from the truth that he spit in his writings, essays, and sermons, etc..

When it comes to others, I'm not seeking to look at their sins (not that it doesn't matter), but their teaching. If their teaching doesn't line up with the Word, then I reject their teaching and warn others to be careful as well.

I think one of the major misconceptions is that a person aligns themselves to a particular preacher just because they enjoy listening or reading material from them. Well, for me, it's not so. I am a follower of Christ. That's it. All others can help supplement my knowledge of the Creator, but it's Christ who I follow. He is the Living Word.

I also believe that one of the barriers that block us from spotting false doctrine is a love, affinity, or alignment with these teachers that goes beyond admiration and leads to "I am of this one...I am of that one....Don't you say that about MY preacher". Because we like them so much, we wouldn't dare question their teaching. Well, that's exactly where they want you to be. They don't want you to question their teaching, and when someone does, they call them "heretic hunters". Hunting implies going out and looking for heretics. True heretics are plainly visible, but their heresy is often hidden and disguised. I don't hunt. I stand on the Word of God and contend for the truth that it is. That's a commission given to us all, by God, in Jude.

Mike that was a dope post.....real talk.

for the record.

1.i agree with mikes post.

2.im not a JE Basher.

3.i dont care about JE or his sermons.never heard one.

4.the ONLY issue i was really concerned with is a POSSIBLE double Standard as Links said and perhaps a Misunderstanding about the JE supporters views on JE's Slaveholdings.

I see a lot of people are joining in the talk now. Maybe, we can get some answers now....

Yo,

Wait a minute here all you JE Bashers.... Have you read your own Bible??? It wouldn't seem you have.... If ya'll want to say that Edwards wasn't a Believer then guess who else you are going to have to add to that list.....Clears throat ;) ....

Names----- Sin
1. Abraham Doubted God and had Concubines

2.Samson He was just nasty!!!

3.David Murder, Adultery,Concubines

4.Solomon Pimping on wax...

5.Lot Having sex with daughters

6.Gideon Doubted God and had many wives

7. Jacob Con-Artist, Multiple wives, Lier...


So please all of you who bash JE for his sins I want you to start a post on each one these guys who are considered Hall of Famers in Scripture but who committed the worst sins habitually. Also don't listen to the message they taught and reject all of the Psalms, Proverbs and books that David and Solomon wrote b/c how could the Lord use such a man as David and Solomon right??? :rolleyes:

You all act as if we are trying to re-institute slavery or something b/c Edwards did it. Edwards was just sinner saved by Grace just like all you Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29 are. I'm sure he's in Glory laughing at your accusations against his down falls and so are the rest of the saints. God uses the lest likely people who are terrible sinners themselves for his Glory. Unfortunately us Americans are very blind of the terrible sinners we are therefore we condemn others of their sins. However, Heresy isn't just a sin but it's teachings. If you are teaching Heresy then you either need to be informed of Truth or you aren't part of the Flock. None of the saints I listed above were ever charged with Heresy. Think about it first, then respond...;)


Romans 8:33

33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Hail King Jesus,
seal