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savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:05 PM
2 Cor 8
12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.

i remember someone had a thread about this a while back, and i said that it didnt make sense to give what you didnt have, but i didnt have the scripture, so i wanted to post this for whoever that was... i think it mighta been eve?

CHRISTion
10-23-2006, 12:09 PM
by debt do you mean, EXCESSIVE debt?? cuz I think it's pretty fair to say we're ALL in debt in one way or another (Car payment, House payment, school loans etc)

TrueConvert
10-23-2006, 12:18 PM
by debt do you mean, EXCESSIVE debt?? cuz I think it's pretty fair to say we're ALL in debt in one way or another (Car payment, House payment, school loans etc)
Yeah, clarify that if you would; cuz due to my house payment, I might be exempt from giving :p J/K..............of course

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:21 PM
ha, i feel you. but perhaps we should all strive to be COMPLETELY debt free (*gasp* i see jaws dropping all over the nation!)

i'd check out the scripture in its full context, the whole thing is about the principles of giving, and pray and seek Godly wisdom on it! i wouldn't tell anyone what to do with their own money, but just wanted to share that verse that i had paraphrased and didnt give the address of!

TrueConvert
10-23-2006, 12:24 PM
2 Cor 8
12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.

i remember someone had a thread about this a while back, and i said that it didnt make sense to give what you didnt have, but i didnt have the scripture, so i wanted to post this for whoever that was... i think it mighta been eve?
Yeah, a plain reading of the text doesn't seem to speak about debt at all. A closer look at the context would reveal more (at least the v. before and the one after would help I'm sure.) I'll check it out too though...........

CHRISTion
10-23-2006, 12:27 PM
ha, i feel you. but perhaps we should all strive to be COMPLETELY debt free (*gasp* i see jaws dropping all over the nation!)

i'd check out the scripture in its full context, the whole thing is about the principles of giving, and pray and seek Godly wisdom on it! i wouldn't tell anyone what to do with their own money, but just wanted to share that verse that i had paraphrased and didnt give the address of!
No Jolene, I feel you on that (and you KNOW i do :D )-and I was SOOOOO close................................. and then I got engaged and it all went down the drain from there :(

(that bump you just heard was me throwing Britt under the bus)

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:28 PM
i think that a plain text reading of the text very much speaks about debt:
12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.
if you are in debt, you do not have. you owe. until you have paid off that amount, that is not your money, but what is owed to another...

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:30 PM
also i'd love to hear what you come up with tho, trueconvert! :) let me know!

LaRosa
10-23-2006, 12:32 PM
not according to what he does not have
or in another context... you just don't have it... not necessarily debt, but you just ain't got it :)

like if someone asked me for $100, but i ain't got it (not in debt)... but just genuinely don't have it... i can't be expected to give it

just something else to chew on :)

lj.

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:33 PM
No Jolene, I feel you on that (and you KNOW i do :D )-and I was SOOOOO close................................. and then I got engaged and it all went down the drain from there :(

(that bump you just heard was me throwing Britt under the bus)
lol, i feel u. thats why if i get married i aint spendin a whole load of money... plain and simple for me! :o

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:33 PM
or in another context... you just don't have it... not necessarily debt, but you just ain't got it :)

like if someone asked me for $100, but i ain't got it (not in debt)... but just genuinely don't have it... i can't be expected to give it

just something else to chew on :)

lj.
yup! definately! thanks lj!

Devin
10-23-2006, 12:36 PM
No Jolene, I feel you on that (and you KNOW i do :D )-and I was SOOOOO close................................. and then I got engaged and it all went down the drain from there :(

(that bump you just heard was me throwing Britt under the bus)


ROTFL

Devin
10-23-2006, 12:38 PM
lol, i feel u. thats why if i get married i aint spendin a whole load of money... plain and simple for me! :o


heres all u need jolene

1.a certificate from the county clerk/court house
2.a few friends/family
3.a bucket of kfc(with the biscuits of course)
4.a pitcher of kool aid(red of course)
5.and a $5 dollar motel(for the honeymoon;) )



STICK TO THE BASICS!!!!!

lisajames96
10-23-2006, 12:40 PM
heres all u need jolene

1.a certificate from the county clerk/court house
2.a few friends/family
3.a bucket of kfc(with the biscuits of course)
4.a pitcher of kool aid(red of course)
5.and a $5 dollar motel(for the honeymoon;) )



STICK TO THE BASICS!!!!!

smh...you had me agreeing til you said "motel"...:eek:

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:41 PM
lol eew. i would not stay in a $5 hotel... better to just stay at home!

plus fried chicken is too fatty.

did you guys know theres more fat in 5 chicken wings than an ENTIRE STICK OF BUTTER??? *barf* :eek:

TrueConvert
10-23-2006, 12:44 PM
or in another context... you just don't have it... not necessarily debt, but you just ain't got it :)

like if someone asked me for $100, but i ain't got it (not in debt)... but just genuinely don't have it... i can't be expected to give it

just something else to chew on :)

lj.
That's actually what a plain reading would bring. To say it refers to debt is actually reading something into it that's not there. It says you ain't got it. Not that you got it but owe it lol...............
I'll continue to look into it though.

jeremy lopez
10-23-2006, 12:44 PM
yum:o

J Hoyt
10-23-2006, 12:47 PM
Car and house payments are not the same as the typical credit card debt.

With CC debt, you spent money you don't have. If you don't pay off the card, that's it. You can't do anything about it.

But if you run out of money to pay off your house, you still have something to give the bank: the house. Yeah, you won't own it anymore but you're not in debt.

Devin
10-23-2006, 12:50 PM
smh...you had me agreeing til you said "motel"...:eek:


oh im sorry.....i meant the Motel 6...they'll keep the light on for you.....not that you would need that anyway..........










































....or will you?...................;)

Devin
10-23-2006, 12:52 PM
lol eew. i would not stay in a $5 hotel... better to just stay at home!

plus fried chicken is too fatty.

did you guys know theres more fat in 5 chicken wings than an ENTIRE STICK OF BUTTER??? *barf* :eek:



fine.....dont eat the chicken......just eat the biscuits and drink the Red Kool Aid......

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 12:53 PM
if you owe it, how do you "got it"?

technically its not yours, right? i dont understand how you are not connecting the two? if i have $50 that i owe you, it wold be wrong of me to give to the church (or use for any other reason) than to not pay you back... let alone the principle of not being in debt, period.

:confused:

Devin
10-23-2006, 01:00 PM
if you owe it, how do you "got it"?

technically its not yours, right? i dont understand how you are not connecting the two? if i have $50 that i owe you, it wold be wrong of me to give to the church (or use for any other reason) than to not pay you back... let alone the principle of not being in debt, period.

:confused:



yeah i agree with you STRONGLY JO!!!!

u see...the american church is SOOO greedy now...


now these preachers want us to give by faith....

WHAT THE HECK IS THAT!!!!!!


do they even have scripture for that?


yeah..we walk by faith.....but i also cant walk under a bridge neither becuase im spending all my money so pastor can be a baller.....no sir!!!

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 01:02 PM
many times the scriptures that people draw from are the old testemant, old covenant scriptures, where God did promise to bless etc... but clearly laid out in 2 cor 8 are new testament rules for giving...

Devin
10-23-2006, 01:05 PM
many times the scriptures that people draw from are the old testemant, old covenant scriptures, where God did promise to bless etc... but clearly laid out in 2 cor 8 are new testament rules for giving...


yeah...i believe todd from wotm..was speaking on that one..;)

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 01:07 PM
lol yup! :D

StreetSermonz
10-23-2006, 01:10 PM
My 2 cents :D

Giving is not about the amount. It is a heart issue, and can be an obedience/trust issue if the Spirit is leading you to give and you don't. I never knew God to require anyone to give outside of their means and not provide for them. If you don't have it, then God doesn't want you to give it. If you were not a good steward with your money and spend money unwisely, then that is another story, but again, if you don't have it you can't give it! And you certaintly should not get into debt to give. But if you got yourself into debt, that debt should not keep you from giving also. Romans 13:8 :cool:

There have been times when I have had bills to pay, and instead helped someone out who needed the money more than me, and God took care of my bill by providing additional resources.

Devin
10-23-2006, 01:10 PM
lol yup! :D


yep..thanks for making me a fan;)

LaRosa
10-23-2006, 01:10 PM
giving is all about doing what God says...

i tend to think about the woman who gave two denari (i think) and that was ALL she had... while all these other "ballers" were giving out of their abundance... they could've stood to give more (as God wanted them to), but this woman listened to God and gave the last of her money

not quite sure how it applies... but i think it fits somewhere in this discussion :)

either way, in all things, follow God

lj.

TrueConvert
10-23-2006, 01:11 PM
many times the scriptures that people draw from are the old testemant, old covenant scriptures, where God did promise to bless etc... but clearly laid out in 2 cor 8 are new testament rules for giving...
If I have $100 in my pocket on Sunday, and I promised to pay you your $50 in two Sundays, I am fully able to give that $100 if I choose. My agreement with you is to pay you in two Sundays. This means, I have while I yet owe. This scripture speaks of the "my having" part. If I have 0$ on Sunday, and I owe you $50 in two Sundays, if I had 1$ now, I could give it, but I DON"T HAVE IT. This is the don't have it spoken of here. Not I both have it and owe it simultaneously. I understand the prescriptives around giving in the NT; I also know that you may want to use wisdom when giving while in debt. I still don't see 2cor 8:12 as a proof text for not giving while you owe. In context, or in it's original language. I agree there should be wisdom used, I just don't agree that this is the Scripture we use for it. The widow with 2 mites gave out of her need, and it was, by Jesus' standard more than those who gave from what they had. How do you reconcile the two instances?

Devin
10-23-2006, 01:12 PM
My 2 cents :D

Giving is not about the amount. It is a heart issue, and can be an obedience/trust issue if the Spirit is leading you to give and you don't. I never knew God to require anyone to give outside of their means and not provide for them. If you don't have it, then God doesn't want you to give it. If you were not a good steward with your money and spend money unwisely, then that is another story, but again, if you don't have it you can't give it! And you certaintly should not get into debt to give. But if you got yourself into debt, that debt should not keep you from giving also. Romans 13:8 :cool:

There have been times when I have had bills to pay, and instead helped someone out who needed the money more than me, and God took care of my bill.


yeah...i agree...it depends of a situation....i personally wouldnt give if im in debt..but if i see a homeless man i might give him a dollar anyway....but it just depends......

TrueConvert
10-23-2006, 01:13 PM
My 2 cents :D

Giving is not about the amount. It is a heart issue, and can be an obedience/trust issue if the Spirit is leading you to give and you don't. I never knew God to require anyone to give outside of their means and not provide for them. If you don't have it, then God doesn't want you to give it. If you were not a good steward with your money and spend money unwisely, then that is another story, but again, if you don't have it you can't give it! And you certaintly should not get into debt to give. But if you got yourself into debt, that debt should not keep you from giving also. Romans 13:8 :cool:

There have been times when I have had bills to pay, and instead helped someone out who needed the money more than me, and God took care of my bill by providing additional resources.
AMEN!!!

That's what I'm saying. You owe Hechts $2000 cuz you had to jump fly, then use that as an excuse to not give to God? That's bogus........That's the mentality that should be avoided by reading into the 2 Cor scripture, I believe.

StreetSermonz
10-23-2006, 01:16 PM
yeah...i agree...it depends of a situation....i personally wouldnt give if im in debt..but if i see a homeless man i might give him a dollar anyway....but it just depends......
yeah, it's all about the situation. But my point is that we shouldn't let our debt keep us from supporting the church (both the needy within the Body and ministries). As long as we are up to date with our payments, we should make room to give. Right now I have about $70,000 debt :eek: and I still manage to give, but I also manage my bills and pay them on time (for the most part, I am kinda behind cuz my income was cut in half, but that is another story). God is our provider, and everything He gives us is for a reason. So everytime I receive money I try to seek Him to find out what I should do with what He has given me, whether it be money or anything else.

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 01:17 PM
great replies! thanks for breakin down your thinkin, tc!

i think street and lj are onto something! giving is about listening to God... so in any case, i still think that the verse there applies to giving while in debt, but i better understand where you're coming from... i think the issue is a heart issue like street said! about obedience, and being a good steward... anyway, this is a good convo!

anyone elses input would be great too, if you have a good explanation or anything!

StreetSermonz
10-23-2006, 01:20 PM
great replies! thanks for breakin down your thinkin, tc!

i think street and lj are onto something! giving is about listening to God... so in any case, i still think that the verse there applies to giving while in debt, but i better understand where you're coming from... i think the issue is a heart issue like street said! about obedience, and being a good steward... anyway, this is a good convo!

anyone elses input would be great too, if you have a good explanation or anything!
lol you remind me of Phlo with all those explanation points! where is he by the way? I was thinking about him earlier today. Have you heard from him Jo? I wonder if his book has come out yet....




In Christ............praying for my brother whom I have not seen post in quite a long time.

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 01:21 PM
new perspective: (or rather question)

if i am in debt, and i set it out to be a good steward and to pay off every debt that i have, i have a heart desiring to give, but want to get my debts paid off so that i can give freely... am i wrong to NOT pay the church or be giving to other believers, until i get paid off.. and then give abundantly as i have?

StreetSermonz
10-23-2006, 01:23 PM
new perspective: (or rather question)

if i am in debt, and i set it out to be a good steward and to pay off every debt that i have, i have a heart desiring to give, but want to get my debts paid off so that i can give freely... am i wrong to NOT pay the church or be giving to other believers, until i get paid off.. and then give abundantly as i have?
depends on the situation, I would take it to God. Personally, I would budget in a little money to give, and pay a little less towards my debts. I think that giving is a fundamental part of being a believer, and obviously giving financially is NOT the only way to give. Prayer/Intercession is the most important thing to give.

Devin
10-23-2006, 01:23 PM
new perspective: (or rather question)

if i am in debt, and i set it out to be a good steward and to pay off every debt that i have, i have a heart desiring to give, but want to get my debts paid off so that i can give freely... am i wrong to NOT pay the church or be giving to other believers, until i get paid off.. and then give abundantly as i have?


if thats the Lord's Will..then it cant be wrong....

but if u really wanna give...then give what u think u can give..even if its only .10 cents:eek:

savedbygracealone
10-23-2006, 01:23 PM
lol you remind me of Phlo with all those explanation points! where is he by the way? I was thinking about him earlier today. Have you heard from him Jo? I wonder if his book has come out yet....




In Christ............praying for my brother whom I have not seen post in quite a long time.
lol! ya, i talked to him! he may come visit our church (prayerfully) sometime this month! but he's taking a fast, you know how it goes. sometimes u just gotta do that! but he's doing well, plus their new edition and everything... he does go on myspace tho, more than here anyways. you should hit him up! i bet he'd be excited to hear from you :D

Devin
10-23-2006, 01:25 PM
maybe u should ask the church to help you with their debt and see what they say..

CHRISTion
10-23-2006, 01:40 PM
maybe u should ask the church to help you with their debt and see what they say..
You know...I actually agree with this perspective here. It's biblical too (check the end of Acts chpt 2)

2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2:43
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

2:44
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.

2:46
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

LaRosa
10-23-2006, 01:44 PM
my church has helped me out b4...

i remember when i was in college & my financial aid hadn't come through yet, but i needed books... they gave me the money to buy all my books & stuff...

my church helps out a lot of ppl every month with their bills... what's sad though is when ppl get turned down & then they get mad & wanna leave the church... it's not like the church can help EVERYONE that asks for help, otherwise they'd be asking for help themselves...

lj.

TrueConvert
10-23-2006, 01:47 PM
my church has helped me out b4...

i remember when i was in college & my financial aid hadn't come through yet, but i needed books... they gave me the money to buy all my books & stuff...

my church helps out a lot of ppl every month with their bills... what's sad though is when ppl get turned down & then they get mad & wanna leave the church... it's not like the church can help EVERYONE that asks for help, otherwise they'd be asking for help themselves...

lj.
Yeah, me and SE had a need before, and the Church simply took up an offering, and then nearly doubled the offering to help us. :eek: God really does work through His own. We are family you know? And like Chris stated, it's absolutely Biblical for the Church to discerningly take care of it's members..............Praise God!!!

CHRISTion
10-23-2006, 01:51 PM
my church has helped me out b4...

i remember when i was in college & my financial aid hadn't come through yet, but i needed books... they gave me the money to buy all my books & stuff...

my church helps out a lot of ppl every month with their bills... what's sad though is when ppl get turned down & then they get mad & wanna leave the church... it's not like the church can help EVERYONE that asks for help, otherwise they'd be asking for help themselves...

lj.
yeah, it's a cycle...and it requires for people to be honest, loving, and REAL important is accountable-cuz people don't mind helping people who need help, but they DO have a problem paying your bills, and then you going out and making *new* bills...:eek:

J Hoyt
10-23-2006, 01:55 PM
My church has helped people out a few times. A friend of mine had his van break down on the way to church. After church, we went around asking people for money and drove to his place right after the service and gave it to him.

jeyjey34
08-03-2014, 01:30 PM
I thought this thread was deserving of a bump. It's a good discussion.




my church has helped me out b4...

i remember when i was in college & my financial aid hadn't come through yet, but i needed books... they gave me the money to buy all my books & stuff...

my church helps out a lot of ppl every month with their bills... what's sad though is when ppl get turned down & then they get mad & wanna leave the church... it's not like the church can help EVERYONE that asks for help, otherwise they'd be asking for help themselves...

lj.

I've been there. While in college, I was struggling to pay my electric and water bill for a month or so. So my church paid it for me to help me get caught up. That's the kind of thing churches need to be doing more of to truly live out what a godly church looks like.