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Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 10:21 AM
I want to build on the topic of what it means to be teachable. I have seen several cats on both the build board and theology board tell other cats that they need to learn how to be "teachable". However from my expereince on this forum I have not seen to many cats who are "teachable" themselves. Now some of you might "amen" me and say that you are trying to teach other cats how to be "teachable" but on this forum are you "teachable"? When it comes to particular doctrines many cats on here are pretty much sealed into their doctrinal convictions so in light of that how is one to be "teachable" in a debate concerning those doctrines. I am also guilty of not being "teachable" cause for example most know my feelings about Jonathon Edwards so in regards to that I do not see myself as being that "teachable". I have studied up on the man and feel that there really is not any new information that can be presented to me that I have not already seen. Now that was just a personal example but for the more "learned" cats on HCR do you see youself as being "teachable" and open to learn from others even if doctrinally you disagree....or do you see yourself pretty set in your doctrinal convictions to the point you only see yourself as a teacher. Keep in mind that I am only speaking in context of this forum so please dont say "well yes whenever I hear pastor so and so he teaches me something all the time". Lets Build!!!!!!!!!

lisajames96
10-23-2006, 10:29 AM
I think I am teachable.
As some of the sisters will tell you, I have come along way on the Sovereignty of God and contentment just by some of the teaching from bros and sis on this site, even back in early 2005.
But i feel you on the JE thang...but I am learning to reverence God and not myself when it comes to those matters cause they do cause me some fear(hard to explain)...

ctide
10-23-2006, 10:32 AM
I want to build on the topic of what it means to be teachable. I have seen several cats on both the build board and theology board tell other cats that they need to learn how to be "teachable". However from my expereince on this forum I have not seen to many cats who are "teachable" themselves. Now some of you might "amen" me and say that you are trying to teach other cats how to be "teachable" but on this forum are you "teachable"? When it comes to particular doctrines many cats on here are pretty much sealed into their doctrinal convictions so in light of that how is one to be "teachable" in a debate concerning those doctrines. I am also guilty of not being "teachable" cause for example most know my feelings about Jonathon Edwards so in regards to that I do not see myself as being that "teachable". I have studied up on the man and feel that there really is not any new information that can be presented to me that I have not already seen. Now that was just a personal example but for the more "learned" cats on HCR do you see youself as being "teachable" and open to learn from others even if doctrinally you disagree....or do you see yourself pretty set in your doctrinal convictions to the point you only see yourself as a teacher. Keep in mind that I am only speaking in context of this forum so please dont say "well yes whenever I hear pastor so and so he teaches me something all the time". Lets Build!!!!!!!!!


and where should the line be drawn between being teachable and being firm in your beliefs?

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 10:33 AM
and where should the line be drawn between being teachable and being firm in your beliefs?


Thats what I am hoping to discuss which is why I started the topic fam. Where do you draw that line? I am more concerned with cats who tell others to be "teachable" if they are consistent and are "teachable" themselves.

TrueConvert
10-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Good Thread: I'll sit back and watch it with a heart to learn ;)

djHeir
10-23-2006, 10:51 AM
Not to puff anyone up but I can honestly say that one person on here who I've truly seen as being teachable is Tha GIM. Dude always comes at subjects with a desire to understand the truth and not to push his own agenda and you can always see the desire in his questions to know the bible for all it's worth. God bless bro!

eyesofphaith
10-23-2006, 11:02 AM
I agree with you Quiet Storm (u get my message:mad: )

:) Anyway, I'd say to be teachable you must approach a conversation with the mindset to listen without fearing what you have always believed being wrong. That fear of being wrong and being ashamed because you might have slam dunked other people in the past on that topic will cause you to be close minded.

I believe so many times two people decide to debate a topic hearing but not hearing what the other person is saying because each is already firm in their belief. Each will approach it and say, So and so can say what they want about this, I already know what time it is. I already know what they are going to say anyway, I've talked to a thousand protestants, a million catholics, a trillion pentecostals, I already know. That I already know mentality is what also keeps people from being teachable. I can't say those are the only two but for now that's all I have, the fear of being wrong and/or the I already know what they are going to say before they say it. And the truth is they might say the samething but well all know someone can say the samething in ten different ways. And the way they say it in a way you've never heard causes you to understand what they
ve been trying to say the whole time. For example I've explained things to the same person and it took 5 different metaphors for them to understand me. The same principle but not understood until said differently from the 1st four times they heard it. So it's detrimental to your and my learning to approach conversations and debates with these mindsets.

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 11:34 AM
. That I already know mentality is what also keeps people from being teachable.


Believe me I know what you mean. Its not healthy dialouge when you tell a cat "I already know your arguments".

Live@Baruch
10-23-2006, 11:58 AM
i typed a longer thing but hcr g'd me so here it goes again

I think people are teachable but not in the sense you are talking about. When it comes to core doctrinal issues most of us are not really open to changing our stance on where we stand and no amount of arguments/teaching is gna change our mind. I kno for me there are certain topics on which I am not teachable in this sense cessation and reformed theology, catholisism being some of the topics that i will ask questions about and pay attention to why others believe what they do but I wont debate the merits of these systems versus what i believe because I kno I wont switch to those beliefs. And while that might seem close minded and to a certain extent it is :rolleyes:. I think its better to know what issues u can approach from the perspective of I am teachable on this on an internet forum that being said I am teachable in the sense of understanding what others believe and why they believe so, which i think we all are more open to but to say we really are teachable on this forum would be wrong

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 12:59 PM
I think people are teachable but not in the sense you are talking about.


Well the sense that I am talking about is when I see a theological debate (between 2 opposing sides) and one side says to the other "well you need to be more teachable" to me that pretty much means "well you guys should consider the fact that you might be an error and be willing to change your view". Should the call to be "teachable" be made if the ones who are calling the other side to be teachalbe are not willing to consider the fact that they might be in error as well.

jnorman888
10-23-2006, 01:10 PM
I want to build on the topic of what it means to be teachable. I have seen several cats on both the build board and theology board tell other cats that they need to learn how to be "teachable". However from my expereince on this forum I have not seen to many cats who are "teachable" themselves. Now some of you might "amen" me and say that you are trying to teach other cats how to be "teachable" but on this forum are you "teachable"? When it comes to particular doctrines many cats on here are pretty much sealed into their doctrinal convictions so in light of that how is one to be "teachable" in a debate concerning those doctrines. I am also guilty of not being "teachable" cause for example most know my feelings about Jonathon Edwards so in regards to that I do not see myself as being that "teachable". I have studied up on the man and feel that there really is not any new information that can be presented to me that I have not already seen. Now that was just a personal example but for the more "learned" cats on HCR do you see youself as being "teachable" and open to learn from others even if doctrinally you disagree....or do you see yourself pretty set in your doctrinal convictions to the point you only see yourself as a teacher. Keep in mind that I am only speaking in context of this forum so please dont say "well yes whenever I hear pastor so and so he teaches me something all the time". Lets Build!!!!!!!!!


I already know you think I'm not teachable, but you miss understand me so it's ok if you think that.

nar8ta
10-23-2006, 01:10 PM
This is a good thread

When I hear the word teachable the alarm in my head rings Humility. What I have notice here at HCR (I'm new) is that the locus of control that each person (thinks) they have is threatened when someone disagrees. Their is a big different saying "I disagree, your wrong" and saying "I don't know if I agree with that I need more info".

To many time we are compelled to answer even when we are minimally informed triggered by pride. I'm the first one to say I don't know but I'll look into that. To many folks have all the right answers but when things happen they are powerless. I truely believe I can learn from anyone. Children are my biggest teachers.

I also learn daily the hearts of people here. I can tell how far a person is spiritually by the way they act when confronted by opposition. I normally watch the responces to difficult post to get an understand of where people are. We all are human and get in the flesh from time to time, but at every disagree is not spirit. I war against this in my flesh also.

Only GOD knows the whole heart, but I hope we discern our heart before we post. I have deleted hundreds of post prior because of the Holy Ghost saying "Stop, they won't recieve it".



I found this!


In practical application, submission to one another only works if all of the members of a group have the same Godly intention. Just as the New Commandment to love one another can only be obeyed when the love is mutual, so submission to one another only works if the submission is mutual. Yet the decision to submit can only be made by one person Ė you. And you cannot make that decision without first becoming humble.

Does humility mean that you become a doormat for others to wipe their feet on? We only have to look to the example Jesus gave us. I donít think He turned Himself into a doormat. To Him, humility meant surrendering His will, His agendas, His goals in life. He merely deferred to the Fatherís will in all circumstances, which in turn gave Him the discernment and wisdom to make right decisions. It removed His self-consciousness. In the end, He went all the way in humbling Himself, by giving His life for us.

Does it mean we let people use us, even when we recognise they are taking advantage of our submission? Again, when we are so close to God that we hear His voice clearly, it wouldnít matter if they are using us. Sometimes it is better to be used by some, if it means those truly in need get the ministry they need. And sometimes the Lord has a way of working through our submission, to do a work in the users.

(We do have a long way to go, donít we?)




Nar

CHRISTion
10-23-2006, 01:23 PM
I can be teachable in certain aspects and in others I am MAD closed minded because I already know no matter what evidence you try and bring, you're wrong. Perhaps I should pray about that and be more open to everything?

(on second thought...)

BlackCalvinist
10-23-2006, 01:51 PM
There are certain things I'm firm on and it will take a lot of Biblical evidence to convince me otherwise.

I am open to learning what others believe and the basis for it. I don't believe in speaking out without knowing what I'm talking about. Sometimes I have a habit of transferring that same expectation to others and it comes out wrong (I've said "i already know your arguments" before, for example). I'm open to re-examining what I believe in light of whatever someone brings up to me - there's always a chance I'm wrong. The thing I've found is that usually the people I'm in dialogue with (most of the time) aren't thinking the same way (and not just because they don't agree with me all of a sudden), but moreso 'I'm trying to teach him (me) something'.......

I've learned to be a lot more cautious on passing judgement on men and women in church history. I try to keep in mind that they were saints living with the same life-contradictions of Romans 6-7 as I, and that some of them would likely look up TV watching, the internet and other things we do for 'entertainment' as being just as ungodly we view slave owning, or the execution of heretics. There's always more to the story.

There's more....there always is. Holding my tongue for now.

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 02:12 PM
I already know you think I'm not teachable, but you miss understand me so it's ok if you think that.


Whoa just saw this fam I am not sure why u feel singled out I started this thread only speaking in general I did not have Jnorman in mind. I've actually enjoyed the millions of convos we have had and have learned from you.

Live@Baruch
10-23-2006, 02:12 PM
Well the sense that I am talking about is when I see a theological debate (between 2 opposing sides) and one side says to the other "well you need to be more teachable" to me that pretty much means "well you guys should consider the fact that you might be an error and be willing to change your view". Should the call to be "teachable" be made if the ones who are calling the other side to be teachalbe are not willing to consider the fact that they might be in error as well.

in that sense i would have to say no look at all the theological or buildboard debates or threas or arguments most end in someone giving up, agreeing to disagree, saying they leaving or just dying out and part of it is we really arent open to giving up what we believe.

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 02:28 PM
There are certain things I'm firm on and it will take a lot of Biblical evidence to convince me otherwise.

I am open to learning what others believe and the basis for it. I don't believe in speaking out without knowing what I'm talking about. Sometimes I have a habit of transferring that same expectation to others and it comes out wrong (I've said "i already know your arguments" before, for example). I'm open to re-examining what I believe in light of whatever someone brings up to me - there's always a chance I'm wrong. The thing I've found is that usually the people I'm in dialogue with (most of the time) aren't thinking the same way (and not just because they don't agree with me all of a sudden), but moreso 'I'm trying to teach him (me) something'.......

I've learned to be a lot more cautious on passing judgement on men and women in church history. I try to keep in mind that they were saints living with the same life-contradictions of Romans 6-7 as I, and that some of them would likely look up TV watching, the internet and other things we do for 'entertainment' as being just as ungodly we view slave owning, or the execution of heretics. There's always more to the story.

There's more....there always is. Holding my tongue for now.

Thanks for responding BC I am encouraged by what you had to say I just want to ask you a follow up question.

You said
I'm open to re-examining what I believe in light of whatever someone brings up to me - there's always a chance I'm wrong.

Is that the approach you feel that we ALL should take in our various theological discussions if so do you believe that can happen if one side is constantly telling the other side they need to be more "teachable"? Somewhere along the line I believe people feel that others are not "open to re-examining their beliefs" which is why a number of people shun theological discussions cause they feel others are not trying to learn from them. To get more personal do you believe that you communicate the message that your "open to re-examining what you believe because there is a chance you might be wrong" in your various theological debates?

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 02:33 PM
in that sense i would have to say no look at all the theological or buildboard debates or threas or arguments most end in someone giving up, agreeing to disagree, saying they leaving or just dying out and part of it is we really arent open to giving up what we believe.


I agree most end in that fashion but I am not sure the conclusion should be "well the other side was not teachable" cause the same charge can be said of your side of the debate. To confess something I personally struggle with being "teachable" in discussing theology with females so I tend to be a little harsh with them and impatient. This is something I am working on cause my ex girl use to "out debate" me all the time which really help put my prideful self in check.

jeyjey34
10-23-2006, 02:42 PM
Should you be teachable when it comes to people like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, etc...?

Devin
10-23-2006, 02:43 PM
Should you be teachable when it comes to people like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, etc...?


you should LISTEN to what they have to say in order to present a better argument....

ctide
10-23-2006, 02:54 PM
I agree most end in that fashion but I am not sure the conclusion should be "well the other side was not teachable" cause the same charge can be said of your side of the debate. To confess something I personally struggle with being "teachable" in discussing theology with females so I tend to be a little harsh with them and impatient. This is something I am working on cause my ex girl use to "out debate" me all the time which really help put my prideful self in check.

or maybe its cause your spirit rings with the scripture that said "i do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man" ;)

just playing, i think some people dont believe you listen to them because you havent be persuaded

some folks dont seem to think it possible for 2 mature believers to read and hear the same teaching yet end up with different conclusions

folks sometimes ask me "did you even read my post" as if to say "if you read my post with an open mind, you certainly must have been convinced"

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 03:05 PM
folks sometimes ask me "did you even read my post" as if to say "if you read my post with an open mind, you certainly must have been convinced"

yeah I know what you mean good point. Cats something get all shooked when one attempts to refute something that they wrote as if what they write is infallable.

CHRISTion
10-23-2006, 03:21 PM
Should you be teachable when it comes to people like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, etc...?
I would be open to listening to a 7th Day Adventist (i used to be one) but not the others.

In regards to Kerry's Post
Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist
I'm open to re-examining what I believe in light of whatever someone brings up to me - there's always a chance I'm wrong. this is how I feel on most issues-around 2 or 3 yrs ago I began to question EVERYTHING I've ever been taught-so that meant my understanding of the trinity, Jesus Christ being God, why we should go to church, giving/tithing, are we all gonna be saved, is there a such thing as hell-and it's been VERY beneficial for me to come and read and learn what others feel regarding these topics. In some instances, I have learned that what I was taught was right (like Jesus Christ being God) in others I have found I have a LOT to learn (like church history, what happens to us when we die etc) and in others I have found that I was just dead wrong in my thinking and I have now stopped teaching things that I have found to be wrong in scripture (like tithing and the whole satan being lucifer thing)... s

o... I think it's good to build in the scripts and learn new things-and in MOST instances, I feel like I learn some things. Sometimes though, I just see that the church has relied a whole heck of a lot on tradition and very little on SCRIPTURE :(

montenell
10-23-2006, 04:24 PM
i think i'm teachable, i never come on board to debate and when i ask a question its to get an understanding of what the opposing side is saying, i take everything given to me and examine it, and ask God to give me a clear understanding.

Live@Baruch
10-23-2006, 05:16 PM
I agree most end in that fashion but I am not sure the conclusion should be "well the other side was not teachable" cause the same charge can be said of your side of the debate. To confess something I personally struggle with being "teachable" in discussing theology with females so I tend to be a little harsh with them and impatient. This is something I am working on cause my ex girl use to "out debate" me all the time which really help put my prideful self in check.

i agree that shouldnt be the conclusion but i think both sides should be honest before they engage in discussion whether they are open to being taught and if not they can discuss it from the standpoint of trying to better understand each other.

Quiet storm
10-23-2006, 05:18 PM
i agree that shouldnt be the conclusion but i think both sides should be honest before they engage in discussion whether they are open to being taught and if not they can discuss it from the standpoint of trying to better understand each other.


I think you might be on to something here.

BlackCalvinist
10-23-2006, 10:11 PM
Thanks for responding BC I am encouraged by what you had to say I just want to ask you a follow up question.
You're welcome, fam.



Is that the approach you feel that we ALL should take in our various theological discussions if so do you believe that can happen if one side is constantly telling the other side they need to be more "teachable"?
Not with ALL. As you grow in Biblical skill and knowledge of the faith, your handling of the word of God and such, your convictions get a bit more settled and you become a bit more 'closed minded' to certain things.

A large part of where you end up on a particular issue depends on where you start off being taught. Humans adapt to whatever they're being fed and become shaped by it. There's also the emotive factor: anything that seeks to focus more on the emotions than the intellect will have a deeper impact and guide the affections. If the 'brand' of Christianity you've been given has been more emotion and experience based, you're less open to listening to logical arguments and sound Biblical exegesis. That's why some folks who've followed Copeland, Dollar, etc.... for years immediately shut their minds to listening to anything - you're not speaking to their emotions and affections with greek words (the common terminology is 'what you're speaking isn't SPIRIT.... that's MAN'S KNOWLEDGE and FLESH').

Garbage in, garbage out.

God can break a person of that, though. There are several of 'us' (Calvinists) on the board including Redeemed who spent the greater part of their lives in that type of atmosphere (he's logged about 20 years or so in a pentecostal church, for example).

So coming into a discussion, most people who've been taught to esteem their emotions and experiences higher than stuff taught by 'saints from yesterday' (scripture and writings of good theologians throughout history) are going to have a very difficult time understanding. Notice: I didn't say AGREEING. I said understanding. And that's simply because, despite all of the lip service to 'I believe the Bible is the Word of God', some people believe that the Bible is a Word of God in their daily practice. They are also waiting for some experience, some happening, some still small voice, some 'revelation knowledge' to come to them and that's given the same authority as scripture.

So coming into the discussion many times, we're not on equal footing with the Bible being the final, infallible authority on all matters of faith and practice. Some saints (and yes, they are saints, albeit misguided and mistaught) think because you're not speaking 'spirit' and you're only concerned about reading some greek text and what the Bible says and you're not conveying any emotion in the words you say, that you're not 'teachable'. And some of these same people will be closed to listening to you simply because you're not speaking 'Spirit' (not speaking words which touch the emotions, emphasize the experience and such...which most theological discussions don't do on a surface level).

On the flip side, you'll have the person who has been brought up to put more thought into their Christian faith. They've been taught to hold scripture - not their emotions and experience - as the final infallible written authority and the primary way that God speaks. So they spend time there. You hear it in their tone because sometimes they sound like old men who've weathered a storm. Or ten. You hear them speak with conviction - God said it, that settles it (whether you believe it or not). They know what they believe....because that's what the text teaches. You hear them speak in absolutes - it's all black and white to them, because words actually have OBJECTIVE meaning and can be understood. They believe that the Spirit of God gives a believer a sober mind - so instead of looking to fall out like a drunken idiot, they believe the Spirit leads them to deeper insights into the scriptures. That's why the books they read are thicker than their counterparts in the previous verses - they have come to realize through the careful, systematic study of God's word, that this God we worship - this salvation we possess - there's MUCH more to it than people think. And a LOT of it is revealed in that very Word that so many people only treat like an operating manual for a VCR/DVD player. So we (yeah, I'm in this group) spend time talking and fellowshiping with people of precious like faith, studying, and really seriously BUILDING - Nate (Brokendaily), Q-DOG and I had a GREAT convo a few weeks back at an event we were all at and it was MARVELOUS (it was on concerns about infant baptism and whether or not it was/is biblical). Building each other up in the faith by sharing insights into the Word of God we've discovered over time, sharing concerns and much more. Our souls bow in awe at the God who has revealed Himself in the scriptures, and since we love Him, we seek to hear His voice daily. Was there something we missed in that verse ? Let's go back over it again. Oh wait.... His sheep ? Oh wow. This changes everything. Pastor skipped past this. How did he miss it ? It's right there plain as day.... and moments like that happen daily as the Spirit of God illuminates the mind of the believer to understand more truth. And we know the only way that we're going to grow is to get the same attitude toward scripture and taking it in that the writer of Psalm 119 has. And when we come across folk who don't take it seriously, we want to (in love) take them and shake them and say "DO YOU NOT REALIZE THE TREASURE IN YOUR HANDS ???? AND YOU'RE JUST QUOTING IT AS A QUICK PROOF TEXT OR SOME DAILY "CONFESSION" THAT REALLY DOESN'T EXIST ?"

So there you have it. Two folks unteachable for two different reasons. I can't say they should both approach each other with the thought of 'well, I could be wrong' on every issue - simply because there are some things the group 2 guys have down that the group 1 guys miss because they haven't put in the necessary leg-work to understand more of what the scriptures teach.

Be intolerant. Because some things are just stupid.

Now both sides can be pretty arrogant - group 1 because his experience makes him think he's more spiritual and everyone who isn't speaking the same language (especially those 'scripture quoters') must be at the beginning stages of their walk and not ready to really LIVE..... and group 2 because knowledge CAN (not always) make folk real proud. I've seen examples of both on this board - frequently (and more from the group 1 folk than group 2, shockingly....).

My approach, I think, puts some more objectivity behind the issue. If both sides are saying that the scripture is their final authority, let the discussion be focused on exegeting the text and the approach to exegeting the text. Not 'my experience', not 'the Holy Spirit told me'.... but what does the text say ? What does the text MEAN ? (in context)

that, and also seek to understand what others believe before you open your mouth to criticize it. Far too many folk, for example, open their mouth against Calvinism with only a HALF-surface understanding of it. If you can't restate to someone what they believe to the point where they are satisfied that you've 'got it', then you need to keep your mouth shut about it. That shows both humility and respect, and there's far too much of that missing on this board - even among the so-called 'spirit-filled'.


Somewhere along the line I believe people feel that others are not "open to re-examining their beliefs" which is why a number of people shun theological discussions cause they feel others are not trying to learn from them.
Well, I think I answered this above. :) LOL.



To get more personal do you believe that you communicate the message that your "open to re-examining what you believe because there is a chance you might be wrong" in your various theological debates?
Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I ain't open. For example - discussion on the Trinity - I'm not open to re-examining. It's right. Spent too much time on it and realize the logical implications of not believing it - both for trying to account for things in reality like "love" and "fellowship" as well as practical relationship things (husbands and wives in marriage and how they should operate and just a few common sense deductions (i.e.- Isaiah 44 - God compares himself to idols and 'gods' that do not exist, 2 John 7-11, 1 John 4 and 2 Cor. 11 all say to be on the lookout for 'other Jesuses' that aren't the biblical Jesus.....).... so naw. I ain't budgin'. And yeah, you ARE blind if you don't see it. And I'll be praying that God opens your eyes. Get under some CONSISTENT sound doctrinal teaching so you can grow right.

Hope this helps, em. I know I stepped on a few toes.

Quiet storm
10-24-2006, 10:46 AM
Thanks for your very detailed response believe me I read every last word. Many things stood out to me and I do understand where you are coming from. I do understand that there are people who in a debate they clearly show that they do not have a working understanding of the views of the other side of the debate. For instance if somebody was trying to debate Calvinism and they would say something like "oh yall Calvinist believe that you can get saved and live any way you want to" with that kind of person I know it would be hard to appear "teachable" when discussing things with them. They will probably fall under the group 1 people you mentioned. Chances are they might already have preconcieved notions and are not willing to examine the scriptures to see what is taught in the word. On the flip side of things I have also seen Calvinist (in my opinion) who state preconcieved notions about non calvinist such as "oh u believe you save yourself", "you give yourself the glory not God" etc...which I would argue is also an unfair assesement of the views that a non calvinist might hold to. Not to put all the focus on this particular debate of calvinist/non calvinist but I believe both sides should be fair and drop preconcieved notions about the other side. Preconcieved notions on various theological debates have hindered fruitful discussions on this forum since the day I joined.

Another thing I have seen is that I get the feeling that people are seen as more mature in the faith or if we are going to go by your system as 'group 2 people' if they hold to certain doctrinal positions. So because other cats might not hold to certain doctrinal convictions they are placed with the group one people as defined by "we're not on equal footing with the Bible being the final, infallible authority on all matters of faith and practice." That is why I have problems with statements being made such as "you need to go study your word a little more" because it is assumed that a person has not studied scripture if he does not hold to the same doctrinal convictions as the one he is debating. On the majority of theological debates there are very "learned" people on both sides who have put in the time studying scripture in its proper context but yet end up at different sides of the debate. I really lose interest in trying to build with a cat if they tell me to go "read my bible" as if I had never cracked it open in my life. I have more thoughts on this matter but I was hoping that others would chime in based on the fact that I talk to many about this very issue but they hesitate to voice their concerns publically.

Psalmist
10-24-2006, 11:15 AM
q I don' t know if I'm teachable....but I wish you were in the school of flow...then maybe LTS would've rubbed off on you....I wish I were a little more teachable in this arena too!

Quiet storm
10-24-2006, 11:23 AM
q I don' t know if I'm teachable....but I wish you were in the school of flow...then maybe LTS would've rubbed off on you....I wish I were a little more teachable in this arena too!

*tempted to say something but I wont to keep the seriousness of this thread* :rolleyes:

Psalmist
10-24-2006, 11:25 AM
*tempted to say something but I wont to keep the seriousness of this thread* :rolleyes:
Yo I really wasn't poking jokes family.....on some real stuff I think we could've both learned a lot from L

Quiet storm
10-24-2006, 11:28 AM
Yo I really wasn't poking jokes family.....on some real stuff I think we could've both learned a lot from L


Ok Psalm :)

Shock~Therapy
10-24-2006, 12:50 PM
I want to build on the topic of what it means to be teachable. I have seen several cats on both the build board and theology board tell other cats that they need to learn how to be "teachable". However from my expereince on this forum I have not seen to many cats who are "teachable" themselves. Now some of you might "amen" me and say that you are trying to teach other cats how to be "teachable" but on this forum are you "teachable"? When it comes to particular doctrines many cats on here are pretty much sealed into their doctrinal convictions so in light of that how is one to be "teachable" in a debate concerning those doctrines. I am also guilty of not being "teachable" cause for example most know my feelings about Jonathon Edwards so in regards to that I do not see myself as being that "teachable". I have studied up on the man and feel that there really is not any new information that can be presented to me that I have not already seen. Now that was just a personal example but for the more "learned" cats on HCR do you see youself as being "teachable" and open to learn from others even if doctrinally you disagree....or do you see yourself pretty set in your doctrinal convictions to the point you only see yourself as a teacher. Keep in mind that I am only speaking in context of this forum so please dont say "well yes whenever I hear pastor so and so he teaches me something all the time". Lets Build!!!!!!!!!

I haven't read the other posts... but let me reply.

I believe that I am firm in my beliefs but I always am able to listen intently to the views of others without having a pre-formed opinion. That is not to say that what someone says will influence me to change my mind but I am always willing to hear them out. I believe that none of us should be at the point where we feel that we are unteachable, otherwise our spiritual growth will be stunted. Even as teachers we are always learning and we shouldn't exclude others who may not be as spiritually mature as us, as not being able to teach us some things. This is something I have run across in the Body alot, where we "mature" believers do not think new believers can teach us anything. This is erroneous thinking. A Pastor learns just as much from his congregation as the congregation learns from him, and so it should be the same way on this board. Just because someone is a "newbie" does not mean they don't have something valid to offer and you should be willing to hear them out with an open mind and without preconceived notions.

Quiet storm
10-24-2006, 12:53 PM
I haven't read the other posts... but let me reply.

I believe that I am firm in my beliefs but I always am able to listen intently to the views of others without having a pre-formed opinion. That is not to say that what someone says will influence me to change my mind but I am always willing to hear them out. I believe that none of us should be at the point where we feel that we are unteachable, otherwise our spiritual growth will be stunted. Even as teachers we are always learning and we shouldn't exclude others who may not be as spiritually mature as us, as not being able to teach us some things. This is something I have run across in the Body alot, where we "mature" believers do not think new believers can teach us anything. This is erroneous thinking. A Pastor learns just as much from his congregation as the congregation learns from him, and so it should be the same way on this board. Just because someone is a "newbie" does not mean they don't have something valid to offer and you should be willing to hear them out with an open mind and without preconceived notions.

Dope post I feel you fam and believe me I constantly learn from the youth I work with they keep me on my toes.

Psalmist
10-24-2006, 01:18 PM
Now an on topic response....I don't know if I'm teachable. I think that if you were to give me scripture references and tell me what the topic is, w/o telling me your interpretation, I would dig and come up to a conclusion myself. Then after we have our opinions made, we could come together and talk, even tussle it out...but in the end we might need to agree to disagree....b/c fact is that being teachable, doesn't mean you are submitting what God has shown you through His word to someone else's interpretation....that would be stupid!

Live@Baruch
10-24-2006, 01:18 PM
So according to BC (this is what I hear you saying so feel free to clarify and i assume u refering to this those on this board) charasmatics are unteachable unless u make em fall out or talk about your experiences or appeal to their emotions. Whereas reformed or nonpentecostals are unteachable by pentecostal types because they really study the word of God and study with big books to understand the things of God and therefore cant be swayed by most of babblings of this emotional bunch.

You broke the 2 up into the emotional types and the logical types can you show me where in the bible either one is the method to knowing God. And yes the bible says study to show yourself approved but where does it say forsake emotion and embrace logical standards. My understanding is the Holy Spirit is to lead us in all truth and by Holy Spirit i dnt mean spookiness but he is to be our guide which is a practical thing but is not limited to our intellect.
But I think u really captured why most of us on this board arent teachable in that it shows some are only open to those who think like them and really dismiss what others know because of how they learned it. If you learned something from reading augustine and i learned it from life expereince what validates either is the word of God. Augustine doesnt get a free pass he and any "church father" not in the bible gets that test so do all "emotional" type experiences. the question is can I be willing to learn from someone who completely dismisses what I believe in the faith and can someone who does the same to by beliefs learn from me i think not.

BlackCalvinist
10-24-2006, 08:47 PM
So according to BC (this is what I hear you saying so feel free to clarify and i assume u refering to this those on this board) charasmatics are unteachable

Cooking right now, so I'll make this short:

I didn't say charismatics are unteachable.

C.J. Mahaney and the folk at Sovereign Grace Ministries are charismatics and frequently fellowship, share pulpits, etc.... with non-charismatics. In fact, John MacArthur, probably THE biggest 'cessationist' in print (check his book Charismatic Chaos, for example), yet he let C.J. preach out of his pulpit one Sunday morning.

That might not be a 'big deal' to you, but when you understand that MacArthur has a 40 year ministry he pretty much built from 30 people, a bible college and seminary, dozens of books, an 11000 member congregation and all of the spiritual responsibility with that, you'll know that he doesn't let ANYONE speak out of his pulpit who is shaky on doctrine or is not committed to the 100% final authority of the Word of God (Scripture).

Check here for a small blurb on it (http://www.reformation21.org/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/pm__114/vobId__617/).

Second, I already mentioned in the OTHER group how as believers, the Spirit of God illuminates the mind of the believer to understand spiritual truth (hence, He is our teacher). The Spirit of God is much more 'active' than you THINK non-Calvinists think He is.

and as an FYI, I recommend these wonderful 'charismatic' folk at SovGrace on my website as a good family of solid churches that folk shouldn't have problems with joining. I've learned LOTS there in my times I've visited.

Go back and re-read, fam. It's about your approach to scripture. Hope this clarifies. If it doesn't, go back and re-read and ask whatever questions you have.

BlackCalvinist
10-24-2006, 09:07 PM
(while the rice is cooling)

Before I give you a Biblical basis for the Christian life in response to your question, let me ask you a question: are you teachable on the matter or do you already have your mind made up ? :D

Don't just respond off of emotion. Sit ponder and pray on it before hitting 'post reply'.

Live@Baruch
10-25-2006, 12:44 AM
(while the rice is cooling)

Before I give you a Biblical basis for the Christian life in response to your question, let me ask you a question: are you teachable on the matter or do you already have your mind made up ? :D

Don't just respond off of emotion. Sit ponder and pray on it before hitting 'post reply'.

if you are asking me if i am teachable i would ask on what topic?

BlackCalvinist
10-25-2006, 01:13 AM
if you are asking me if i am teachable i would ask on what topic?


So according to BC (this is what I hear you saying so feel free to clarify and i assume u refering to this those on this board) charasmatics are unteachable unless u make em fall out or talk about your experiences or appeal to their emotions. Whereas reformed or nonpentecostals are unteachable by pentecostal types because they really study the word of God and study with big books to understand the things of God and therefore cant be swayed by most of babblings of this emotional bunch.

You broke the 2 up into the emotional types and the logical types can you show me where in the bible either one is the method to knowing God. And yes the bible says study to show yourself approved but where does it say forsake emotion and embrace logical standards. My understanding is the Holy Spirit is to lead us in all truth and by Holy Spirit i dnt mean spookiness but he is to be our guide which is a practical thing but is not limited to our intellect.

But I think u really captured why most of us on this board arent teachable in that it shows some are only open to those who think like them and really dismiss what others know because of how they learned it. If you learned something from reading augustine and i learned it from life expereince what validates either is the word of God. Augustine doesnt get a free pass he and any "church father" not in the bible gets that test so do all "emotional" type experiences. the question is can I be willing to learn from someone who completely dismisses what I believe in the faith and can someone who does the same to by beliefs learn from me i think not.

...

Live@Baruch
10-25-2006, 01:13 AM
Cooking right now, so I'll make this short:

I didn't say charismatics are unteachable.

C.J. Mahaney and the folk at Sovereign Grace Ministries are charismatics and frequently fellowship, share pulpits, etc.... with non-charismatics. In fact, John MacArthur, probably THE biggest 'cessationist' in print (check his book Charismatic Chaos, for example), yet he let C.J. preach out of his pulpit one Sunday morning.

That might not be a 'big deal' to you, but when you understand that MacArthur has a 40 year ministry he pretty much built from 30 people, a bible college and seminary, dozens of books, an 11000 member congregation and all of the spiritual responsibility with that, you'll know that he doesn't let ANYONE speak out of his pulpit who is shaky on doctrine or is not committed to the 100% final authority of the Word of God (Scripture).

Check here for a small blurb on it (http://www.reformation21.org/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/pm__114/vobId__617/).

Second, I already mentioned in the OTHER group how as believers, the Spirit of God illuminates the mind of the believer to understand spiritual truth (hence, He is our teacher). The Spirit of God is much more 'active' than you THINK non-Calvinists think He is.

and as an FYI, I recommend these wonderful 'charismatic' folk at SovGrace on my website as a good family of solid churches that folk shouldn't have problems with joining. I've learned LOTS there in my times I've visited.

Go back and re-read, fam. It's about your approach to scripture. Hope this clarifies. If it doesn't, go back and re-read and ask whatever questions you have.

ok so if I remove charasmatic and put pentecostal does that make my summation valid? Also if you take my whole statement i am not saying u said pentecostals are unteachable period you are saying the way in which most of them learn is incompatible with being taught by others and visa versa.

Quiet storm
10-26-2006, 10:14 AM
I want to make sure everybody sees this one.

BlackCalvinist
10-30-2006, 09:53 PM
ok so if I remove charasmatic and put pentecostal does that make my summation valid?

No, as some modern pentecostals are virtually indistinguishable from charismatics.

As an example, I direct you here: http://www.sovgracemin.org/pdf/teaching/holy_spirit.pdf

Where Jeff Purswell identifies Sovereign Grace's position on Spiritual Gifts as essential that of Douglas Oss - an Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) Pastor.

That's part of the reason why I purposely did NOT say Pentecostal or Charismatic, as I know of many from both groups who are quite solid and not Calvinistic in their theology. It's a PEOPLE issue.

Hence, 'some people'.

Feel me ?

Live@Baruch
10-31-2006, 12:47 AM
No, as some modern pentecostals are virtually indistinguishable from charismatics.

As an example, I direct you here: http://www.sovgracemin.org/pdf/teaching/holy_spirit.pdf

Where Jeff Purswell identifies Sovereign Grace's position on Spiritual Gifts as essential that of Douglas Oss - an Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) Pastor.

That's part of the reason why I purposely did NOT say Pentecostal or Charismatic, as I know of many from both groups who are quite solid and not Calvinistic in their theology. It's a PEOPLE issue.

Hence, 'some people'.

Feel me ?

cool i get where you coming from

naijagirl
10-31-2006, 01:11 AM
Yo, BC, I love Sovereign Grace. C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris are my two favorite authors...and I'm not blatantly cessasionist, so I can see where they're coming from.

But about being teachable...it's something I should pray about, though I do not want to fall into false doctrine.

I've gone through stages - Staunch Pentecostal - Questioning Pentecostal - Church-seeking non-denominational - Studying non-denominational - Moderately reformed and I'm slowly moving to the reformed side. Or maybe I may end up like C.J.'s ministry. But I do completely agree with my church's stance on things, which is very Reformed.

But yeah, enough yakking. Gotta sleeeep.
Pray for me to be teachable.