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    Default Can we really trust the police?

    http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/sc...t-335927363934

    look at this story about the young man shot by a South Carolina officer. Listen to the officer's version of events.
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    no. that shouldn't be a surprise though.

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    If you have a close relative who is a policeman like I do, you should know that not all cops are bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeyjey34 View Post
    If you have a close relative who is a policeman like I do, you should know that not all cops are bad.
    I'm with you 100%. Actually, you don't have to have family members as officers to realize that they're not all bad. Personally, I love law-enforcement. I have relationships with several in my area. What I was trying to bring out is that an officer's version of events carries a heavy weight and is believed above most others. Without the video of the shooting, the officer's story would have been believe without a doubt. Should officers have this much trust from our courts? How many of the cases have been decided in an officer's favor because he was able to manipulate the events of what happened and believe beyond reproach? This is why the people of Ferguson are upset about the Michael Brown shooting. There are several eyewitnesses as to what happened but the cop is not arrested because the investigation is still ongoing and the officer has a version of the story that differs dramatically from the witnesses.
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    Windering how many people are black or from a community where you know better than to trust police. As a black man I know that the man who was shot, was supposed to announce to the officer that he was getting his wallet. By not doing so his movements looked suspicious. I had the same thing happen when I was in college, i wasnt shot thankfully but the officer yanked me out my car, handcuffed me and threatened to shoot me and my brother. Im not blaming one side or absolving guilt from the other of course. This is an inconvenient truth, you can choose to be nonthreatning, play the rules within the system you exist or live by the consequences of your actions.

    On the flip side traffic stops are a leading cause of officer related deaths so i can rationalize the anxiety and learned accomodations to prevent such...


    ..it's a convoluted issue, I do not think it's fair to demonize either side. Squeeze 1st ask quesiton last is a reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plainoleme View Post
    Windering how many people are black or from a community where you know better than to trust police. As a black man I know that the man who was shot, was supposed to announce to the officer that he was getting his wallet. By not doing so his movements looked suspicious. I had the same thing happen when I was in college, i wasnt shot thankfully but the officer yanked me out my car, handcuffed me and threatened to shoot me and my brother. Im not blaming one side or absolving guilt from the other of course. This is an inconvenient truth, you can choose to be nonthreatning, play the rules within the system you exist or live by the consequences of your actions.

    On the flip side traffic stops are a leading cause of officer related deaths so i can rationalize the anxiety and learned accomodations to prevent such...


    ..it's a convoluted issue, I do not think it's fair to demonize either side. Squeeze 1st ask quesiton last is a reality.
    Yes. He should have said his license is in the car. I can definitely see the officer's point of view for the first 2-3 shots, but the last one was completely unnecessary. If you look closely at the video, you can see him reach for his back pocket first for his wallet before he went into the vehicle. But he was also shot while retreating with his hands up. This is not to demonize the officer, but to point out how an officer's account of events cannot go unchallenged soley because it's an officer.
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    By the way, I reviewed this video with a deputy in my office. The deputy told me it appears the officer had a lack of training.
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    For my perspective, I grew up in the burbs, 2 parent, black christian fam, from 2004 to present, been educated and worked in the black community (read:hood), I also have degrees in sociology & criminal justice.

    A number of factors i look at that are possibly in play

    1 the difference btw training & reality. His movement I would have shot as well. Theres no such thing as warning shots, officers are trained to subdue and using his weapon would not be uncommon

    2 reaction time: it is plausible and common to discharge the weapon in rapid succession (have you ever pulled a trigger?) The reaction time between shooting in succession and raising arms in a defensive position are not necesarily linked, again this doesnt excuse anything.

    3 sterotypes and anxiety: whats understood need not be explained (doesnt make it right of course)

    4 perspective: ask any attorney, investigating officer, sit in any court room perception & perspective are often not grounded in fact and what you believe becomes what you see. some may see an unarmed victim, some may see a possibly armed individual.

    its all a tragedy nonetheless
    Last edited by plainoleme; 10-01-2014 at 10:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plainoleme View Post
    For my perspective, I grew up in the burbs, 2 parent, black christian fam, from 2004 to present, been educated and worked in the black community (read:hood), I also have degrees in sociology & criminal justice.

    A number of factors i look at that are possibly in play

    1 the difference btw training & reality. His movement I would have shot as well. Theres no such thing as warning shots, officers are trained to subdue and using his weapon would not be uncommon

    2 reaction time: it is plausible and common to discharge the weapon in rapid succession (have you ever pulled a trigger?) The reaction time between shooting in succession and raising arms in a defensive position are not necesarily linked, again this doesnt excuse anything.

    3 sterotypes and anxiety: whats understood need not be explained (doesnt make it right of course)

    4 perspective: ask any attorney, investigating officer, sit in any court room perception & perspective are often not grounded in fact and what you believe becomes what you see. some may see an unarmed victim, some may see a possibly armed individual.

    its all a tragedy nonetheless
    We grew up basically the same. My degree is in business however. As far as pulling a trigger before, I have done so many times. I practice at a local range and pray I never have to use it in real life situations. If you look at the video, there was a pause between shot 3 and 4. In that period of time the victim raised both hands while backing up. He was shot again after displaying non-hostile behavior. Movement has everything to do with this case as the officer describes the victim as coming toward him and video clearly shows the opposite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeyjey34 View Post
    If you have a close relative who is a policeman like I do, you should know that not all cops are bad.
    That's an irrelevant point. Some of my personal friends and family who I love dearly are in both the military and law enforcement. Whether or not all cops are bad doesn't change that enough cops are bad that we should not trust them.

    If every bag of skittles was guaranteed to have 5 poison skittles, with no way to determine which ones were poisonous, would you eat skittles? Even though not all....Matter fact, let's say that the MAJORITY of cops are great....it still doesn't change that there are enough crooked cops that we should not trust them.

    Even worse.....they investigate their own crimes. How can I trust that justice will be served when the organization that wronged me is also the organization that investigates the wrong doing? There needs to be a separate entity that investigates police crimes. The prerequisite being that you are not a cop. Never have been a cop. Have no cop friends or family. But you are required to take the training to know what is expected of them. But cops investigating cops is a joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking View Post
    That's an irrelevant point. Some of my personal friends and family who I love dearly are in both the military and law enforcement. Whether or not all cops are bad doesn't change that enough cops are bad that we should not trust them.

    If every bag of skittles was guaranteed to have 5 poison skittles, with no way to determine which ones were poisonous, would you eat skittles? Even though not all....Matter fact, let's say that the MAJORITY of cops are great....it still doesn't change that there are enough crooked cops that we should not trust them.

    Even worse.....they investigate their own crimes. How can I trust that justice will be served when the organization that wronged me is also the organization that investigates the wrong doing? There needs to be a separate entity that investigates police crimes. The prerequisite being that you are not a cop. Never have been a cop. Have no cop friends or family. But you are required to take the training to know what is expected of them. But cops investigating cops is a joke.
    Brother, I'm gaining a lot more respect for you.
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    I dont understand why we should trust anyone? Man is inherently wicked. I never put it past imperfect people to commit imperfect acts, regardless of position, prestige or any other qualifier which garners respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plainoleme View Post
    I dont understand why we should trust anyone? Man is inherently wicked. I never put it past imperfect people to commit imperfect acts, regardless of position, prestige or any other qualifier which garners respect.
    This is an irrelevant point, bro. Everyone isn't given guns to protect us. That's why God calls leaders to be above reproach.

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    and yet we know the are still fallible sis, the expectation is for them to do right and be responsible nonetheless i trust no one, we all sin, i expect us to continue doing so up until death.

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    The question.......

    Do you trust people?

    Btw, the Cops do need cameras.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshGordon View Post
    The question.......

    Do you trust people?

    Btw, the Cops do need cameras.
    Most people have someone they trust. It would be ideal if cops who have betrayed the trust they were given were fired, if not imprisoned or executed (for murder); that isn't happening in these cases.
    Last edited by Zema; 10-11-2014 at 01:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshGordon View Post
    The question.......Do you trust people?
    That really is the heart of the issue. And the progression of this thread is rather interesting.

    The argument has been made that even if the majority of cops are good, there are enough bad ones that cops (in general) should not be trusted. This, of course, is a fallacious argument. It is an inductive fallacy and interestingly enough, the same irrational thinking used by people to justify the very 'crookedness' we are fighting, e.g. what would we say against cops who reasoned? -- Even if the majority of young, unarmed black teens are good, there are enough bad ones that young, unarmed black teens (in general) should not be trusted.

    Now, if you are thinking ahead, then you would realize that this fallacious reasoning becomes an even bigger problem. You could plug any 'group' into the equation and make the same inductive, irrational conclusion - whites, asians, fast-food cooks, presidents, etc. And, lo and behold, the thread has advanced to that very question: can we trust ANYONE?

    Why just pick on 'cops'? There are a myriad of ways to 'group' people and make the same inductive claim. Should we trust pastors? Should we trust our parents? Should we trust people who argue fallaciously?

    Now, one person has already answered: Trust no one because all are "inherently wicked."

    It is certainly true that all are inherently wicked. But i think, biblically, it is a bit short-sighted to conclude that no one is trustworthy or capable of being trustworthy, ruling out the work of the Spirit in the lives of some. Inherently wicked people, by the work of the Spirit, are capable of actually doing good things.

    1. Historically, faithfulness has been classified as a communicable attribute. Communicable attributes are attributes that God has and are shared with humans, albeit to a finite degree and imperfectly.

    2. The Bible suggests that men are not only capable of being trustworthy, but are expected to be and will be judged accordingly:

    “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Matthew 25:14-30 ESV)

    Clearly here, the Lord trusted three servants to manage his property; which would be an odd thing to do if none were capable of being trusted. And when judgment came, two of the three proved their trustworthiness and were given greater responsibilites.

    3. In the qualifications for elders and deacons, faithfulness (trustworthiness) is a must, not only for them but for their wives as well:

    You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:1-2 ESV)

    The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

    Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:1-13 ESV)

    ---

    I think these examples suffice to demonstrate that trustworthiness is not only possible, but expected.
    Last edited by Jason Bradfield; 10-11-2014 at 03:12 PM.

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    Of course police should be trusted, just as we should trust anyone in authority, yet we still need to exercise caution. When we teach our children about the police do we tell them that they are corrupt? Do we even tell them at a young age that some are good and some are bad? No. As they get older we teach them more, but from a very young age we teach them that the police are the good guys and if they need help they can go to them for that help.
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    If we start teaching our children that we can't trust the police (or whomever) then we will have a massive movement of rebellious teens trying to take matters in their own hands. I've heard so many say out loud that they hate the police and they should all be killed.

    Do they ever consider their own ridiculous statements? If we didn't have law and order in our cities who would be in charge of that law and order? Usually it's the teens who've been committing crime or involved in a lot of suspicious activity that say these nonsensical foolish statements.

    That's why all these videos showing people to rebel against the government (or whomever) are really destructive. There's so much empowering of children today it's almost getting out of hand.
    The Bible said for Jesus we're ambassadors / So it's time to rip off this muzzle of fear and passiveness / Datin

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