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  1. #321
    HCR Veterano HigherThought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Gray View Post
    I don't know if you have answered this question in the 1000 post political thread, but what are the things about Obama that you like, and don't tell me personality characteristics or anything like that, but policy wise, what do you like about him?

    If you posted something that would answer this before in another thread just let me know and I'll go take this discussion to that thread.

    OH

    If there are Mitt Romney voters reading this the same question goes for you too.
    Nahh..you won't find a lot here. Where you will find lots of it at my facebook page where I truly believe that if it wasn't for pro-Obama status updates, he wouldn't have gotten elected. HEHE And, where you would see some classic debates.

    Ina nutshell,

    Ending the war in Iraq...

    And creating a better respect for America on a global scale...

    Equal pay for women...via The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act

    I'm really fond of what he has done when it comes to energy...

    Affordable Education is a big one although for me a little too late but if I do go to Law School, (Doh! I think the increase in Pell Grants are only for undergrad students)

    Moreover, his student-loan Reform is huge for working people like me who have student loan that will take me forever to pay back on the salary I make. I must be honest, if I had a chance to do it all over again, I would of never taken out a loan. But hey, you live and you learn.

    Obamacare...many call it socialism but how can it be when insurance companies will be making big profits? Nevertheless, healthcare is important and as one nurse put it, Obamacare will make healthcare more affordable which in turn will lead to healthier people which in turn will lower the cost of healthcare...

    Tax cuts for working people like me...and asking the rich to pay their fair share....


    And he saved us from economical depression... as one guy put it..

    ""What people don't realize is that Obama increased spending (stimulus) as a preemptive strike against the inevitable Depression. That's right...depression, not recession. Without stimulus and all of the measures he implemented (bailing out banks, auto industry, home owners, etc), we'd likely be in big trouble right now...worse than the UK. He saved our [butts]! And for that he deserves another 4 years as the Leader of the Free World! "

    Nahhh I'm just kidding...I voted for him because he's black and has big ears.
    Last edited by HigherThought; 11-09-2012 at 01:01 AM.
    In order to assume that Christian rap was created for Christian Rap fans, you must first assume that Christian rap fans preceded Christian rap, which is an impossibility.

  2. #322
    HCR Veterano HigherThought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LUPE View Post
    Cruz as a fellow Obama supporter and part of the religious left within the party I approach the issue of abortion and gay marriage from a Christian perspective. My voice within the party is important and I will never relinquish it. I stand in opposition to abortion and same sex marriage and I make no bones about that. As you know our party is a big tent that is diverse and not monolithic in it's makeup. I think it's important to keep in mind that as Christians whether we identify ourselves as Democrats or Republicans or Independents politically at the end of the day we're all brothers and sisters in Christ and we need not let politics divide us to the point where we see each other as the "other".

    Yes!!!!!
    In order to assume that Christian rap was created for Christian Rap fans, you must first assume that Christian rap fans preceded Christian rap, which is an impossibility.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by HigherThought View Post

    I'm really fond of what he has done when it comes to energy...
    Obama is a huge supporter of Natural Gas, Romney would have been one too so don't think I'm just trying to target Obama here. Natural Gas is easily one of the most dangerously harvested energy sources the US has dealt with recently. Coal is terrible too, but hydrofracking absolutely ruins any watersheds it is done near. Obama has been behind this absolutely horrible energy source for as long as he's been in office. In 2005 he voted for the bill that contained the infamous "Halliburton Loophole". Since being in office he has made seemingly no efforts to reign in the increasingly out of control natural gas companies that are going after this new shale resource on the east coast.

    I'd encourage you to watch this Cruz if you ever have the time.


  4. #324
    HCR Ole' Head KPfaREAL's Avatar
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  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPfaREAL View Post
    Okay so in the movie gasland he shows about 30 different people who have all had their water messed up since the companies have come in and drilled. There are plenty of other videos of people that have had their water messed up that aren't related to Gasland at all. Yes methane in peoples wells have caught them on fire for a very long time, but it is not at all what is going on with these peoples wells.

    The Nat Gas companies are using the same PR firm that the tobacco industry used to cover up the dangers of smoking. How ironic is that?

    Now check this out, this is a rebuttal to all the people that have doubted and tried to argue that the movie is false:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed9lQcSTeEM
    Last edited by Mr.Gray; 11-09-2012 at 10:56 AM.

  6. #326
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  7. #327
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  8. #328
    HCR Veterano lonehunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    Well, if you think that one day you get 1% and then wake up and the next election you got 50.1%....your still sleeping.
    When did I say that would happen? I'm saying that either libertarians will take over the GOP, or the Libertarian Party will replace the GOP. The time frame for that is up for debate. It certainly won't be in 2016 if you think that is what I am implying.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    Ben is speculating that new policies will come that will opportune that. So that ObamaCare doesn't create that, but that its the beginning of a thinking that will one day do that.



    Progressive taxation is as American (and Capitalistic) as apple pie. And Obama is on the short end of that, in respects to modern history.

    Look at our own American History:



    This is American, Capitalist history. Not Socialism. This socialist talk is rhetoric, drummed up to drive up fear. Progressive taxation is American Capitalism. Has been since Abraham Lincoln.

    SMH. America doesn't define democracy. Progressive taxation is explicitly an anti-capitalistic, anti-freemarket idea. America has never been a pure free market democracy. And the income tax (not just progressive taxation) is a part of that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by aficianado_jc View Post
    There aren't enough conservative libertarians for them to be an issue in national elections. The Repubs need to have a better position on immigration to get a decent percentage of the Latino vote. If they open up on taxes and immigration and stay firm on social issues and have a candidate who doesn't put his foot in his mouth(let Detroit go bankrupt, 47%), they can win the election and could've won this election.

    I didnt' vote for either but the Presidency is up for grabs.
    Don't underestimate conservative libertarians. They may not be as big as the two major parties, but they represent very important demographics: the youth vote and the independent vote. If Romney had got the conservative libertarian vote, I wouldn't be surprised if he would have won the election.

  9. #329
    HCR Veterano Plain Ole Me's Avatar
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  10. #330
    HCR Ole' Head eternal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonehunter View Post
    When did I say that would happen? I'm saying that either libertarians will take over the GOP, or the Libertarian Party will replace the GOP. The time frame for that is up for debate. It certainly won't be in 2016 if you think that is what I am implying.
    It wasn't about YOU, but the strategy you say Paul employed. I am saying the long haul is what must be in mind, taking necessary steps to get where is needed.



    SMH. America doesn't define democracy. Progressive taxation is explicitly an anti-capitalistic, anti-freemarket idea. America has never been a pure free market democracy. And the income tax (not just progressive taxation) is a part of that problem.
    Then it ought be quite alright to say that America has always been a socialist nation, that is if we want to somehow pin that title on Obama for some reason.

    I understand your way of thinking, and I am against such a "free market." And my point is that it never has been the way. And you agree. So for Obama to be considered somehow drastically socialist because of a progressive tax, then America is socialist and none of it should surprise us.

  11. #331
    HCR Veterano lonehunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    It wasn't about YOU, but the strategy you say Paul employed. I am saying the long haul is what must be in mind, taking necessary steps to get where is needed.
    Paul wanted to win the presidency this year. The only way to do that was run on the GOP ticket. You can debate if it wasn't worth the try, but Paul certainly thought it was and he won a lot of people over to his way of thinking.

    Then it ought be quite alright to say that America has always been a socialist nation, that is if we want to somehow pin that title on Obama for some reason.

    I understand your way of thinking, and I am against such a "free market." And my point is that it never has been the way. And you agree. So for Obama to be considered somehow drastically socialist because of a progressive tax, then America is socialist and none of it should surprise us.
    You misunderstand me. Notice that your little graphic only goes back to 1912, the launch of the income tax. America is much older than that

    I'm all for abolishment of the income tax. Which in turn would do away with the socialist tendencies of a progressive tax system.

    You, however, seem to be advocating socialism, not just a progressive tax system?

  12. #332
    HCR Ole' Head eternal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonehunter View Post
    Paul wanted to win the presidency this year. The only way to do that was run on the GOP ticket. You can debate if it wasn't worth the try, but Paul certainly thought it was and he won a lot of people over to his way of thinking.
    Which I think is the problem. He should have switched. Run for the Republican ticket, that is a good idea. It puts you on the stage for all the Republican Primary debates. That was a great idea. But then he just quit. He didn't take it to the convention or anywhere else. He just fizzled away, so as not to quit, but so also to respect Romney and not compete against him. That was weak. I believe that if Paul REALLY believed all the stuff he said, then instead of fizzling away, he would have become the Libertarian candidate instead of Gary Johnson. That would have been a huge media story, which means the principles he teaches would have had even more exposure, his base would have been even more active and vocal, and they are a great base...and that 1% Libertarian vote would have been much larger. Getting to 5% should have been the goal, to help the Libertarian party get Federal Funds, which becomes yet again a HUGE media story and Libertarian doctrine would have been in the forefront for the next 4 years at least. Its a much stronger way to advance the principles.


    You misunderstand me. Notice that your little graphic only goes back to 1912, the launch of the income tax. America is much older than that

    I'm all for abolishment of the income tax. Which in turn would do away with the socialist tendencies of a progressive tax system.

    You, however, seem to be advocating socialism, not just a progressive tax system?
    Federal Income Tax is not the only thing in US history that undermines some pure form of Capitalism that folks dream of today. It's just the biggest. And our history is ripe with such things.

    The conversation was about Obama being a socialist, and I said he stands in the tradition of America. So if Obama is a socialist, then our entire history is. The problem of course is hyperbole. Anything short of pure free market capitalism is "socialist" and it's silly. It discredits the true definition of socialism, and it creates a fancy for some ideal that is terribly impractical and dangerous.

    I don'd advocate socialism, but I do believe in a heavily regulated market. I don't see regulations as foes to freedom (sometimes they are), but rather as beacons of support for freedom. Our Founding Fathers left feudal systems and Land Barons and such...because of the lack of mobility and freedom that was a consequence of such a system. Yet today many advocate for systems that can really create those very same conditions all over again. Do away with anti-trust laws and we end up with people who can realistically own all of one area, and demand fees from us to live and survive, and hand out jobs according to their whims, etc...this stuff must be protected against. And having this fanciful view of freedom where there are no rules to the marketplace because it will always balance itself out, neglects that when people are good at playing the market, they eliminate the balance.

  13. #333
    HCR Veterano lonehunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    Which I think is the problem. He should have switched. Run for the Republican ticket, that is a good idea. It puts you on the stage for all the Republican Primary debates. That was a great idea. But then he just quit. He didn't take it to the convention or anywhere else. He just fizzled away, so as not to quit, but so also to respect Romney and not compete against him. That was weak. I believe that if Paul REALLY believed all the stuff he said, then instead of fizzling away, he would have become the Libertarian candidate instead of Gary Johnson. That would have been a huge media story, which means the principles he teaches would have had even more exposure, his base would have been even more active and vocal, and they are a great base...and that 1% Libertarian vote would have been much larger. Getting to 5% should have been the goal, to help the Libertarian party get Federal Funds, which becomes yet again a HUGE media story and Libertarian doctrine would have been in the forefront for the next 4 years at least. Its a much stronger way to advance the principles.
    He's run 3rd party before. He made a decision to run for the GOP ticket. I don't think it is our place to judge if that was a good or bad decision. The movement doesn't revolve around Ron Paul. Paul has been a unwavering advocate of liberty, but the movement will continue without him.

    Federal Income Tax is not the only thing in US history that undermines some pure form of Capitalism that folks dream of today. It's just the biggest. And our history is ripe with such things.

    The conversation was about Obama being a socialist, and I said he stands in the tradition of America. So if Obama is a socialist, then our entire history is. The problem of course is hyperbole. Anything short of pure free market capitalism is "socialist" and it's silly. It discredits the true definition of socialism, and it creates a fancy for some ideal that is terribly impractical and dangerous.

    I don'd advocate socialism, but I do believe in a heavily regulated market. I don't see regulations as foes to freedom (sometimes they are), but rather as beacons of support for freedom. Our Founding Fathers left feudal systems and Land Barons and such...because of the lack of mobility and freedom that was a consequence of such a system. Yet today many advocate for systems that can really create those very same conditions all over again. Do away with anti-trust laws and we end up with people who can realistically own all of one area, and demand fees from us to live and survive, and hand out jobs according to their whims, etc...this stuff must be protected against. And having this fanciful view of freedom where there are no rules to the marketplace because it will always balance itself out, neglects that when people are good at playing the market, they eliminate the balance.
    Your philosophy seems to be "Well it's already screwed up, so why fix it?'

  14. #334
    HCR Ole' Head eternal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonehunter View Post
    He's run 3rd party before. He made a decision to run for the GOP ticket. I don't think it is our place to judge if that was a good or bad decision. The movement doesn't revolve around Ron Paul. Paul has been a unwavering advocate of liberty, but the movement will continue without him.
    You don't understand what I wrote.

    I think it was wise to run for the Republican ticket. I said that. I said it got him access to all the debates. The media was even giving him major props for his campaign and there was even talk ON THE NEWS about it going to the convention as a result. That is GOOD. I feel though, when he "suspended active campaigning" instead he should have become the Libertarian candidate. Yes that is my opinion. And I think it would have done very much more good for the cause of having more voices than two dominate our politics (which are very similar voices btw).

    No, the movement doesn't revolve around Paul, but he has built up a great grassmovement support system that is heavily committed and involved. Losing that hurt a great deal. Again, 1% showing for Gary Johnson. My agenda is long term, and I think Paul helped the Republican party by bowing out. I think that is a very BIG missed opportunity. But more than likely you and I have different agendas. I am not about reforming the Republican Party. I am much more interested in not having a two party system that dominates all political discourse.



    Your philosophy seems to be "Well it's already screwed up, so why fix it?'
    You must be reading someone else's posts.

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