Piper's Tornado Theology is Bunk!

[HigherThought]

http://homebrewedchristianity.com/20...nado-theology/

While you may not agree with everything the writer is saying, you have to wonder how Christian leaders like Piper get away with saying such stupid stuff.

[SemperReformanda]

As someone who, well, lived through an EF-4 or 5 tornado (depending on what part of the city you're in) last year, I'm not arguing with this. I don't understand what's hard to understand about that.

A Tower fell and killed 18 people in Jesus’ day. Jesus spoke into that situation: “Those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:4–5).

This is a word to those of us who sit safely in Minneapolis or Hollywood and survey the desolation of Maryville and Henryville. “Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Every deadly wind in any town is a divine warning to every town.

Where do you disagree? You disagree that the "tornadoes were His?"

Now if he said things like Pat Robertson has said time and time again regarding disasters THEN I may have an issue with it.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/pa...s-fault-70872/

[seal]

My thoughts I put up.

I don't believe Piper created a "Tornado Theology." He just told people the Truth. If a person died and didn't believe in Jesus due to the Tornado that person is in Hell. Did they die by accident? Are Tornadoes accidents that happens and God is like...."Ah shucks here we go again" as he goes into his closet to wait for the tornado to end. Let's not be ridiculous here.

Did not Jesus calm waves and storms with his words? Couldn't he stop tornadoes? Why doesn't he is the question. Whether it's judgement or not isn't the issue. The issue is that people need to understand that their life is a vapor and if they haven't repented of their sin that death is certain and they are in grave danger. So yeah....Today is the day of Salvation if you hear his voice don't harden your heart. Repent and Believe the Gospel. America is going bonkers and America needs to repent.

I'm not sure how one can read the Bible and not see that God is in control of everything or something else is. If these Tornadoes were not according to God's will then we have a big problem. How can we trust that God can save us if renegade tornadoes can pop up at anytime and take us out? Again, lets return to Orthodox beliefs and know that it's God who works all things to the good of those that Love him.

My thoughts...

Grace and Peace,
seal

[BlackCalvinist]

The usual.

Look, I get it – and I just don’t like it.

What have I been saying ? Folk who disagree with biblical theology fall into one of two categories (some fall into both) - don't understand it or don't like it. This guy, Olson and a few others all fall into the 'don't like it' category.

May the Lord have mercy on his foolishness and grant him repentance from it.

2 “You only have I known
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your iniquities.
3 “Do two walk together,
unless they have agreed to meet?
4 Does a lion roar in the forest,
when he has no prey?
Does a young lion cry out from his den,
if he has taken nothing?
5 Does a bird fall in a snare on the earth,
when there is no trap for it?
Does a snare spring up from the ground,
when it has taken nothing?
6 Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the Lord has done it?

I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Many people want God in charge, but not to do anything...except when they want Him to.

[HigherThought]

For those tuning in, check out the following comment which links us to an interesting Greg Boyd article and mentions other resources to check out concerning theology and natural disasters. Good resources and comments.

"Bo, I completely understand and sympathize with your exasperation at this kind of stuff. The problem as I see it is not that JP is stuck in a 2nd century world-view, but a particular 16th-17th century one. Greg Boyd (and yes, he really must come on HBC at some stage!) has a very stimulating essay over at his website about ‘natural evil’
http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/apolo...ven-arguments/ which you may or may not agree with, but which does show pretty conclusively that 2nd-3rd century figures such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Origen did not hold to anything like Piper’s view either of a) an interpretation of natural disasters as divine thunderbolts (they didn’t believe in Zeus …) or b) providence as Divine micro-management.

It’s obviously b) that generates all the problems of ‘tornado theology’, as the ultra-deterministic framework is a theological straightjacket. The problem is that it’s become a kind of tribal identity for many people who are so heavily invested in it sociologically that they can’t think outside their own box.

I still think David Bentley Hart’s ‘Doors of the Sea’ – written after the 2004 tsunami and JP’s interpretation of it – is about as good a refutation of this whole line as it gets. His view is essentially the same as Boyd’s – that the New Testament authors’/early Church’s overarching narrative was of Christ’s defeat of The Powers, a component of that being the restoration of the mysterious physical brokenness of creation. NO sense of divinely inflicted suffering for didactic purposes (as if that taught anybody ANYTHING). Christ stilled the chaos of the waves as a sign of the arrival of God’s shalom (viz the Spirit moving over the waters in the Genesis 1 narrative). Not some arbitrary kind of display of power, as if that was ever how Jesus exercised authority …

Peter B."



Make sure to read http://bosanders.wordpress.com/2011/...ead-the-bible/ and http://bosanders.wordpress.com/2011/...-and-politics/

[BlackCalvinist]

Greg Boyd is an open theist. His theology of God's knowledge of the future as well as His involvement in all of history is unbiblical and spiritually dangerous on all levels.

God knows the future exhaustively. Even Norman Geisler (who is no friend of Calvinism) and Thomas Oden (Methodist Arminian scholar) agree on that point.

*smh*

http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Lesser-Gl.../dp/1581342292 Bruce Ware's book pretty much destroys much of Open Theism's foundations in the first few chapters. Even Boyd had to change his original arguments up from 'God cannot know the future because, logically, the future doesn't exist yet' in Letters to a Skeptic to 'God chooses not to know certain aspects of the future' in several of the current books he's contributed to that debate the subject.

Any theology that starts with a dislike of God as Sovereign will always lead to soul-damning heresy.

[seal]

Here is the dude's response to me:

Sylvester, I believe you to be sincere in your response (thank you for not being inflammatory or dismissive). So I will respond as well as I can in order to honor the exchange.

Let me start with 2 things:
A) anytime your have God saying “shucks” or being surprised it is a good indicator that we are personifying God. This is called anthropomorphic language. Taken too far it becomes 1) projecting our hopes and fears onto the canvas of the heavens 2) making God in our image which is idolatry. If God is just a big person in the sky we have a problem because “he” will end up looking a lot like us, caring about what we care about and hating all the same stuff we do … which is kind of what is happening!
Piper’s Hollywood question shows that his god is just a big him in the sky.

B) Jesus calmed the storm. Piper has him unleashing it and directing it. Literally doing the opposite of Jesus. I don’t want to overstate it but Piper’s god is almost the opposite of what we see in Christ. It is a return to some over-exagerated god of wrath from the Old Testament … and not the true God.
Jesus calmed the storm and comforted people. Piper’s god is the opposite.

So those are just my first 2 responses. Let me know if you want to get into the America stuff and the Orthodox stuff. To be honest, I’m not sure your have thought about the intersection of American & Orthodox if you are using words like ‘control’ when you speak of God. I would love to hear back from you. -sincerely Bo

He's certainly missing the point. My use of my example wasn't anthropomorphic in any sense of the term. It was clearly an illustration of his view of God. God isn't like us and Tornadoes and things like that aren't things that happen randomly in the 'gaze' of God. His distraction from me personifying God is smokescreen from the point that I was making.


How is Piper's question a Hollywood response? That's ridiculous. Hollywood doesn't believe in God.

Jesus calmed storms and also pronounced judgement of people who rejected him as Messiah and King. God is Just. I'll be writing a response to this.


Grace and Peace,
seal

[seal]

"Sylvester, I believe you to be sincere in your response (thank you for not being inflammatory or dismissive). So I will respond as well as I can in order to honor the exchange. "

Thanks Bo. This is a civil discussion.

"Let me start with 2 things:
A) anytime your have God saying “shucks” or being surprised it is a good indicator that we are personifying God. This is called anthropomorphic language. Taken too far it becomes 1) projecting our hopes and fears onto the canvas of the heavens 2) making God in our image which is idolatry. If God is just a big person in the sky we have a problem because “he” will end up looking a lot like us, caring about what we care about and hating all the same stuff we do … which is kind of what is happening!"

Bo, I think this was a bit of a leap. Reason being is because my point wasn't anthromorphic in any sense of the term. It was an illustration to show the reasoning that was been advocated by many of the posters on this site. God is not a human for he is Spirit. So the problem is not that I am making God too Human but that many on this Board is making God "Too Small." I'm sure this language should be familiar to you to get a gist of the school of thought I am coming from. God is not ducking blame. If a person died during a Tornado (Do people die and God is unaware? You didn't answer my question) it was that person's time to go.

"Piper’s Hollywood question shows that his god is just a big him in the sky."

This statement Bo is a bit of a low blow. I mean are you saying that Piper would abritrarily send Tornadoes to kill and destroy people? That's a big accussation that I don't believe you have considered. I think that you are more upset with Pipers comments than you realize. The root of the issue is why? Why are you upset with him saying that God is in control of tornadoes? There you will find the real issue at hand here.

"B) Jesus calmed the storm. Piper has him unleashing it and directing it. Literally doing the opposite of Jesus. I don’t want to overstate it but Piper’s god is almost the opposite of what we see in Christ. It is a return to some over-exagerated god of wrath from the Old Testament … and not the true God.
Jesus calmed the storm and comforted people. Piper’s god is the opposite."

Here is the issue. You have Christ depicted only as a storm calmer. Well if that is the Case sir why didn't he calm these Tornadoes? You are saying Piper is saying the exact opposite of who you believe Christ to be however on Earth here we are having Tornadoes that are destroying town and killing people. So this is your dilemma. How do you explain these horrific events that happened when the Christ you advocate only calms storms? Well if he only calms storms then who or what activates the storm. If it wasn't him (as you proclaim) and it was something for the sake of argument lets just say "Nature" then you are left with the Christ whom gave no activity whatsoever. So Christ who only calms storms missed these storms that killed people and ruined the lives of many. Is this what scripture teaches of Christ? Is this what you would preach at these people's funerals that Christ didn't mean for this to happen however you can Trust him with your Salvation of your souls?

"So those are just my first 2 responses. Let me know if you want to get into the America stuff and the Orthodox stuff. To be honest, I’m not sure your have thought about the intersection of American & Orthodox if you are using words like ‘control’ when you speak of God. I would love to hear back from you. -sincerely Bo"

I am a Protestant. So Control is certainly in my vocabulary about God.

Revelation 1:17-18
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Jesus is alive and has all Power and authority in both Heaven and Earth. That includes Tornadoes.


Grace and Peace,
seal

[HigherThought]

Hey Seal, did you get to peep dude's response? He shares some of my sentiments, below, in particularly the comment in red.

Sylvester – thanks for the thoughtful response. I’m enjoying the conversation – I do have one concern

You are dealing in some deep dualisms. Either God ‘sent’ the tornadoes OR God is ‘unaware’? That is illogical trap. Then you have set a trip wire that since God is ‘all-powerful’ (a contested term) and didn’t stop the storms … then they must have been in ‘his’ will.

So Jesus calmed the storm, didn’t calm these ones and therefor must be responsible. Wow – talk about a leap!

Fortunately, it is not hard to get out of this round and round cul-de-sac

I would refer you to the above comment by Da stand das Meer. Especially where he addresses “Ultimately this is grounded in the loving relationality of the Trinitarian Divine life itself.” and the point under “ii) Divine determinism”

respectfully disagreeing -Bo

[J.Waters]

So Jesus calmed the storm, didn’t calm these ones and therefor must be responsible. Wow – talk about a leap!

Not to interfere unnecessary in your convo with seal but how is that a leap? If I see a little kid drowning in water and I'm standing on the sideline just to watch the kid taking his last breath as he dies drowing, while I could have saved him, I'm not responsible for his death? I'm not to blame for anything? Heck, some states in the US would even give me a death penalty. It's simple logic and not a big leap to me.

[phil]

Teaching that God controls everything = "stupid stuff"

Good point...

[thakiddd]

So God sends these things to kill people now ey..?
I get it now.

[seal]

“You are dealing in some deep dualisms. Either God ‘sent’ the tornadoes OR God is ‘unaware’? That is illogical trap. Then you have set a trip wire that since God is ‘all-powerful’ (a contested term) and didn’t stop the storms … then they must have been in ‘his’ will.”

Bo you calling it illogical and proving it are two different things. Again, I am asserting a position based on what I have read in scripture the same as you. Is it insane for me to believe that God caused something to happen on Earth? Have you read in Exodus where God caused plagues to come upon Earth? Following narrative in scripture it’s not a leap for me to believe that God causes rain to fall on the Earth. Science can explain how it happens but it can’t explain why it happens.

So I know you have reasoning to contest the term “All Powerful” and “Sovereignty” of God. This isn’t a new topic and has had people lining up on two different sides of the table for centuries.

“So Jesus calmed the storm, didn’t calm these ones and therefor must be responsible. Wow – talk about a leap!”

Well again, I am left to speculate that some force either outside of God’s Control or completely within God’s control caused tornadoes to rip to shreds people lives and even killed people. So you can continue to talk vaguely or abstract about the topic but you haven’t rendered any answers or critical thought here. However, the seriousness of the matter would need to be uplifted so people who may be concerned or losing trust in God can be comforted.

Good sir Bo you have offered no comfort nor have you offered any scriptural support for anyone reading to understand how to put such events into proper prospective. The guy above whom you say answers for you pulled a Thomas Aquinas and didn’t deal with the issue at hand. God is intimate with his creation. He’s involved in our lives everyday. When we make it home from work each day we can give thanks to God for his Providence and his Mercy in keeping us safe. It was God who keep everyone in their lanes today and didn’t have them drinking and driving to run into my mini van with my wife with my kids in the back. He’s an awesome God to consider keeping me and my family out of harms way.

God didn’t put us on earth to have us fend on our own. We NEED HIM!

I’ll engage your friend above tomorrow LORD Willing.


Soli Deo Gloria,
seal

[redfrozen]

Bo you calling it illogical and proving it are two different things. Again, I am asserting a position based on what I have read in scripture the same as you. Is it insane for me to believe that God caused something to happen on Earth? Have you read in Exodus where God caused plagues to come upon Earth? Following narrative in scripture it’s not a leap for me to believe that God causes rain to fall on the Earth. Science can explain how it happens but it can’t explain why it happens.

So I know you have reasoning to contest the term “All Powerful” and “Sovereignty” of God. This isn’t a new topic and has had people lining up on two different sides of the table for centuries.





Well again, I am left to speculate that some force either outside of God’s Control or completely within God’s control caused tornadoes to rip to shreds people lives and even killed people. So you can continue to talk vaguely or abstract about the topic but you haven’t rendered any answers or critical thought here. However, the seriousness of the matter would need to be uplifted so people who may be concerned or losing trust in God can be comforted.

Good sir Bo you have offered no comfort nor have you offered any scriptural support for anyone reading to understand how to put such events into proper prospective. The guy above whom you say answers for you pulled a Thomas Aquinas and didn’t deal with the issue at hand. God is intimate with his creation. He’s involved in our lives everyday. When we make it home from work each day we can give thanks to God for his Providence and his Mercy in keeping us safe. It was God who keep everyone in their lanes today and didn’t have them drinking and driving to run into my mini van with my wife with my kids in the back. He’s an awesome God to consider keeping me and my family out of harms way.

God didn’t put us on earth to have us fend on our own. We NEED HIM!

I’ll engage your friend above tomorrow LORD Willing.


Soli Deo Gloria,
seal

Seal,

when are you gonna learn that it's far better to worship an impotent God who tries and fails, and allows purposeless events to happen all the time, but then lies to us and says he is working all things for his glory and our good, because it makes us feel fuzzy inside?

I think this Bo guy is awfully dogmatic considering he's just sharing his perspective of the story of scripture with it's rich narrative and meaning. It seems to me like he needs to be more inclusive of our views, and not think in such "us vs. them" dualisms...

[thakiddd]

[COLOR="#000000"][SIZE=3] Following narrative in scripture it’s not a leap for me to believe that God causes rain to fall on the Earth. Science can explain how it happens but it can’t explain why it happens.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain

[eternal]

Seal,

when are you gonna learn that it's far better to worship an impotent God who tries and fails, and allows purposeless events to happen all the time, but then lies to us and says he is working all things for his glory and our good, because it makes us feel fuzzy inside?

But then that reads too much into the other position.

There is indeed a distinction between God causes something and God uses something. Both reveal His power as He inserts Himself and brings about His glory even in the chaos of sinful (rebelious) world. The argument being made is that sin has had its affect on the entire cosmos, not just the hearts of men. This is why Jesus was on the cross reconciling ALL THINGS to Himself, be them on earth or in heaven (Col. 1:20). Remember, sin has rampaged the entire creative order (Hosea 4:2-4). The argument then is not that God is pulling His hair out not knowing what to do, impossible to manage this world since He does not pull the string and zap into being all things that happen. Rather the argument is that His glory and power and sovereignty is revealed in that even in this mess, He works miracles to further His purposes, using that very same mess to His glory. That is an extremely incredible miraculous power indeed.

So the debate is not between a sovereign vs. an impotent God. Rather it is between a definition of sovereignty that means God writes the narrative of every single thing that ever takes place, from thoughts in the human mind to misspelled words that get auto corrected before posted to tornadoes in the MidWest...and a definition of sovereign that means God will not be thwarted and His is powerful and miraculous and works all things together for the good and according to His counsel. Works all things, not creates all things.

That is really the debate. Both see God as supremely powerful and sovereign. Two different definitions.

[eve]

There is indeed a distinction between God causes something and God uses something.

Hey Shaun ... for the first time I'm starting to see how some people are confused by language like this. If God is the Creator of existence and is sovereign, then even the "something" He used was indeed created by Him. So it appears disingenuous (or an attempt to either create God in our own image or embrace some of His characteristics in Scripture while ignoring others) if we make such a distinction. What He caused was made by Him, and what He "used" was too made by Him. Either both are deliberate acts or God is not sovereign. Even the sin that "has rampaged the entire creative order" did so because of a scenario God "used" though even it couldn't have come to existence on its own.

How would you respond to this?

[eternal]

Hey Shaun ... for the first time I'm starting to see how some people are confused by language like this. If God is the Creator of existence and is sovereign, then even the "something" He used was indeed created by Him. So it appears disingenuous (or an attempt to either create God in our own image or embrace some of His characteristics in Scripture while ignoring others) if we make such a distinction. What He caused was made by Him, and what He "used" was too made by Him. Either both are deliberate acts or God is not sovereign. Even the sin that "has rampaged the entire creative order" did so because of a scenario God "used" though even it couldn't have come to existence on its own.

How would you respond to this?

The term "rebel" has become a popular term to articulate our opposition to God. There is indeed a rebellion. Going against His will. But God is not in our image. He is much greater. And though we might determine against Him, He is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent. As a result all things work together for the good of those who love Him and have been called according to His purpose. He works all things after the counsel of His will. Our activity against Him cannot thwart Him. He is much too powerful for that. Not just because He is stronger than us, that is making Him into our image where He simply is better at playing the same game we are. No. He is God, Sovereign, and engages all of existence with Himself for His purposes, even though sin has caused this stir against Him.

I don't quite get how there is a rebellion if every thought, action, etc is one that God wrote Himself from the beginning of time. I don't even see that being presented in scripture. Rather I find it errantly deduced from passages in scripture that are not suggesting that at all. Even further, for this "tornado theology" stuff that Cruz is getting at, it seems to me it is of the same sort. That sin has impacted all things, and thus the earth too is broken and brittle, and is not glorified as it will be one day. This is why we will have a new heavens and new earth. Because just like we will be glorified in the resurrection, so will the cosmos. God was reconciling ALL THINGS to Himself at the cross. He won not just our individual salvation, but the glorification of all things being in totally harmony and at peace with God. He secured/made peace with all things.

Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

So sin is disorder. It is enmity. And the earth itself longs for the revealing of the sons, so that all things can be brought back into full restorative order

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Creation itself suffers the ill effects of sin. It is in slavery to corruption, it is subject to futility. The natural order of things have been thrown into disarray. Our sin is much bigger than us. It is a full on assault on the truth and goodness, and order of God. The fabric of His creation has been attacked, pulling the strings out so to speak. Yet the glorious thing scripture proclaims is that this pulling out of the fabric, or the yarn...is ultimately used by God to make an even more beautiful tapestry. Thus the resurrection. The new heavens and the new earth.

So what I am saying is that God does not have to be a playwrite to which we are all mere shadow actors who only do what is in the script...and love our sin as much as He wrote for us to love it, and then have remorse for our sin but only as much as He wrote for us to have it...and then each typo that I make and then auto-correct and then forget about again and no one else will ever know...or to scratch my toe right now...that somehow God's being sovereign demands all this....this is not necessary, nor is it anything I find in scripture. I certainly know a great deal of reformed Christians believe it to be in scripture, but I respectfully disagree.

So to settle here at the end on your question...God made all of nature. And I do believe He does indeed send weather to accomplish His purposes and is just in doing so. However, I think that is a large step away from declaring every instance is definitively for this or that purpose...or even that it is not a matter of the course of sin and the destructiveness of sin, and why we need a Savior...for man and cosmos alike.

[Spiderman]

If I understand you right, are you saying that where God has spoken about the REASON for a calamity then we can say "he has done it"

But in other instances it can just be a random weather issue? And that if we don't know, we shouldn't say God did it...?

[eternal]

If I understand you right, are you saying that where God has spoken about the REASON for a calamity then we can say "he has done it"

But in other instances it can just be a random weather issue? And that if we don't know, we shouldn't say God did it...?

More or less, yes.

1) God most definitely does whatever He pleases. Weather included.

2) Without a prophet who is of the Lord, we can neither discern: 1) definitively the PURPOSE for this or that event, and 2) if it were indeed God choosing to initiate this event for that reason, or if it was the ill effects of sin on the cosmos at work, that God's glory will still utilize for His purposes.