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  1. #221
    HCR Ole' Head eternal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    You are guilty of doing the same in the past. Just browse the theo section and how you handled king neb some time last year... don't be a hypocrite fam. Then again you are the expert in character accusations so you should recognize it best when you see it, right?

    It's incredibly cowardly of you to make a general statement about losing respect for people and not deal with them directly. You also have this terrible habit of saying you're done with a thread and then returning to it which is bothersome. Maybe you lack maturity. I don't know. It's almost impossible to take you seriously when you don't keep your word. Many have echoed this sentiment to your deaf ears for some time now.

    If you're going to take things personally then take your own advice and take a few days off and cool off yourself.
    David, brother, Rick was correct in his assessment. This thread is HEART BREAKING! There are so many attacks it should grieve us all. You are a better brother than this as well! Yes Rick has made the same mistakes, as have I... For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. (James 3:2)

    Yet we have the standard set before us!

    Ephesians 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

    Colossians 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.


    Please fam! Be a part of the solution! Lean on God. Again, yes Rick has erred in his ways, as have I! Yes Rick has been inconsistent in who he has called out, as have I! So let's correct the record! Build each other up.

    This post does not achieve that goal. If you feel it has to be said, take it to PM. I say this now publicly in hopes that it will catch on with the general public.

    We are CHRISTIAN MEN AND WOMEN! Let's take care of our business accordingly.

    I pray you accept this as sound advice from a brother in Christ who loves you and desires your best.

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  3. #222
    HCR Ole' Head jnorman888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoLemiCs View Post
    So who influenced Calvin, Luther, Beza, Augustine????? SMH
    Luther and Augustine weren't Calvinists. But if you want to know what influenced Saint Augustine in the direction that would later help cause Calvinism some 1,100 years later, then it was Manicheanism, Plotinus, and a few self revelations.

    We all know Saint Augustine is what influenced Martin Luther, John Calvin....as well as Jansen.

    Beza was a protege of John Calvin, the same with John Knox.







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    Last edited by jnorman888; 08-18-2010 at 07:02 PM.

  4. #223
    HCR Ole' Head jnorman888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfrozen View Post
    I thought Calvinism stops people from witnessing and doing evangelism, because what's the point it's all a game of puppets anyways...
    Some of the statements by Calvinists on this thread would certainly make it seem that way since they are fighting against the idea that Calvinism is spreading because Calvinists are actually witnessing and evangelizing.

    I find it strange that I am the one defending the idea that Calvinists actually do witness and evangelize. You would think Calvinists would be happy about that.

    Right?

  5. #224
    HCR Ole' Head jnorman888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post

    That's because it's more than one flavor of Calvinist.

    Don't act like all Calvinists believe exactly alike on Calvinism.
    True,

    It's not as fractured as full-Preterism, but it is still fractured enough to the point that what you say to one Calvinists may not work for another. An Orthodox friend.....who is also a former Calvinist.....told me last month to focus more on the official documents and works of Calvinistic scholars and less time on my own personal experiences with the different kinds of Calvinists I know.

    For no matter the flavor, it will be hard for a Calvinist to say that such and such isn't Calvinism when you quote the official stuff as well as stuff from known Calvinistic scholars. I also recruited a former Calvinistic Baptist to my Apologetics team some weeks ago, and one of the things that frustrated him were the many different interpretations of Scripture passages. He would read one book and it would say this, he would read another book and it would say that, and over the years he saw more and more of this, and it frustrated him to no end.

    I know back when I believed in OSAS, I saw 4 different interpretations on the OSAS/POTS side when it came to Hebrews chapter 6. And I saw 2 on the Arminian/loose your salvation side.

    And so both sides had more than one interpretation, but I saw way more on the OSAS/POTS side.






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    Last edited by jnorman888; 08-18-2010 at 07:33 PM.

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  7. #225
    HCR Ole' Head jnorman888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking View Post
    my PM box is still waiting.
    My PM box is almost full. So I'll send you the blog links of the Arminians I know right here in public for all to see.

    Arminianism just like Calvinism is Augustinian in nature. Not in every way, but in alot of ways. Eventhough alot of Calvinists will call Arminianism semi-Pelagian. The truth is the Classical as well as Wesleyan Arminianism forms are semi-Augustinian.

    The Holiness and Pentecostal version rejects all 5 points.


    The Arminians that believe in Total inability and Once Saved Always Saved: (they both are southern Baptists)
    http://classicalarminianism.blogspot.com/

    and
    (He is a Molinist Arminian)
    http://www.arminianchronicles.com/


    The Arminians that only believe in total inability:
    http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/

    and

    (Pizza Man)
    http://wesleyanarminian.blogspot.com/


    Their Voltron spot:
    http://evangelicalarminians.org/


    Arminius - The Scapegoat of Calvinism
    http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/20
    Quote:
    "A presentation by Dr. Vic Reasoner. He explains the historical background for Arminianism. He argues that Arminius and Wesley have often been misrepresented by their critics. He addresses three misrepresentations: 1) Arminians do not hold to total depravity; 2) they hold to the absolute free will of man; and 3) they promote a works salvation.

    You can find the books here:
    Arminian Theology: Myths And Realities

    Why I Am Not a Calvinist

    Grace, Faith, Free Will

    The Quest for Truth: Answering Life's Inescapable Questions

    Romans (Randall House Bible Commentary)

    Elect in the Son

    Life in the Son

    (just ignore his terminology of "moderate Calvinism", "extreme Calvinism", and "Arminianism". He is really an OSAS Arminian)
    Chosen But Free


    You probably already know about the ones who reject all 5 points. So there is really no need for me to tell you about them.


    Hmm, I guess I'll send it to your PM as well......just in case you miss it here.






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  9. #226
    HCR Ole' Head jnorman888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    I'll dig on it. I had some extensive stuff on the 1120 confession as well as related documents a while back, but lost them.



    You don't have to be. Depending on the Father, you'll occassionally see them make 'Calvinistic' statements. But for the most part, the bulk of them treat the atonement as universal. Phil Johnson even said that in the very quote I put up here. So your accusations of 'cherry picking' are inaccurate.



    Depends on the type of Arminian. If they hold to the governmental theory, you're dealing with a whole different ball of wax. If they (like Wesley) hold to imputed righteousness and penal substitution, then yeah, they're going to end up making contradictory statements.

    Calvinists believe the atonement is limited in its' application too, remember ? Limited to 'whoever believes' (John 3:16).



    Mmm. If you say so....




    I've read some of them, but not all at length. Time has gotten shorter over the years. I am an 'original source' person, though - here's an example:
    http://theologicallycorrect.com/stud...article&sid=17



    At least you admit more than most Catholic apologists do here.



    Uhh....last I checked, so did Viret.



    Actually, I don't. All I *really* have to do is demonstrate it from scripture.

    But I broke my earlier rule of going back and forth with you and others on the topic. I don't intend to. With school starting and other projects, wisdom dictates that I dedicate my time elsewhere. There are plenty of other folk on here who will have time to do church father reading and joust back and forth with you. At the end of the day, regardless of who believed what, the final arbiter of truth is whether or not a doctrine is taught in scripture.

    Yes, scripture was interpreted by community, but community didn't always get it right (i.e. slavery in the south, curse of ham, early weird-looking-premillennialism, Augustine, Origen and others having warped views of sex which eventually became the norm in the Catholic Church, the invention of the Papacy, etc.....). The good thing is, people in different eras are prone to different sets of mistakes. So I can appreciate Augustine getting a ton of things right and being in the process of repudiating more of his earlier writings near the end of his life (correcting himself), but some things I can't and won't get with because they don't match up with scripture.

    For the record, I've been a 'fan' of James White for a while, but didn't really pay attention to him or Calvinism until around 99 when I got challenged over some comments I'd made about Finney getting it right on free will I started reading more scripture. Primarily. The only two books I really read on reformed theology were Custance's and White's. And I didn't stop there - thanks to my nice dispensational background, I was a stickler for consistent interpretation, so whatever White and Custance said, I checked against scripture.

    Instead of fighting, I found myself humbled.

    Even in my 'early' reformed years (2001), i was still VERY shaky on the topic of particular redemption. While studying it, the thing that primarily convinced me of it was that Paul's writings frequently link the benefits of the atonement to the atonement itself. As I studied more (particularly in Ephesians, but not exclusively), I saw more and more of it and was like 'wow. It IS there'. I hadn't gotten to the point where I could properly defend it yet, but I realized it was there....like it or not.

    So I had to pull the sinners' prayer from my ministry website, take down some old articles, revise stuff I'd written over the years, etc.... (which is why from mid 01- late 02, there was a 'coming soon' page up). I didn't start getting into reformed theology discussions at length until about 2004-2005 (some of them from arguing with my ex-girlfriend).

    You know, looking back, I could've become real bitter about having falling outs with her over theology and blamed the theology. Or blamed her theology and become real ambivalent to it or anything that wasn't reformed.

    Nahhh. I look back and realize there was a ton of things that could've helped me out earlier if I'd known where to look (part of that come from NOT being in a consistently reformed atmosphere and constantly having to sift through junk). Some of it could've kept me from being BlackHarshGuy back in some of my earlier days on HCR.

    You live and you learn.

    As the years go by, I realize more each day how merciful God is and how much more patient He is with us - even ordering our steps through mess for us to learn from it. I also realize (as my old pastor used to say) "If you try to stomp out every fire, you won't have any feet left". So no, John - I don't have to do anything else other put the discussion back on scripture. We can do the historical thing from time to time....but at the end of the day:

    If you desire a new quotation, if you pretend to affirm anything besides what is written, why do you dispute with us, who are resolved to hear nothing, and to say nothing, besides what is written? - Athanasius

    I can see your McGrath and raise you a Curt Daniel:
    http://ltpalculict.wordpress.com/200...y-curt-daniel/

    And we can jostle through the Institutes and other writings of the reformers and see how they used the very church fathers as proof that they weren't "making up new stuff".

    Meh.

    It'll be helpful for some people. What's more helpful and what will always change minds and hearts is God's word. It alone is 'powerful' to make one wise to salvation.

    Soli Deo Gloria,
    KG
    I'm a bit tired and so I'm not gonna say much, but I would like to thank you for sharing your personal past experiences. Naturally I will disagree with what you said about the church fathers, Calvinism being biblical, the church fathers not getting it right. and Calvinism before Calvin in general. I'm too tired to talk about it now, and so I will just give this link:
    http://ancientchristiandefender.blog...o-david-n.html (I covered some of what you were saying here when dealing with someone else)

    Also the quote from Saint Athanasius is within the context of his "rule of faith...or the rule of faith of the Church in general". To read that quote as if he supported Sola Scriptura is misleading. He was a Prima Scriptura advocate. If you look at his other statements about tradition then you will see that you can't put him in the Sola Scriptura box.

    Thanks for the Curt Daniel book. I don't know if he's simply an Apologist or if he really is a scholar. I will eventually find out, and I will check his sources in due time. If he quotes anything within the first 5 hundred years I will be able to tell what the context is quickly. So yes, I will eventually check it out.

    Don't sleep on Alister. He may not be an expert in every area, but in the places where he is an expert I would say....in those places you should check out what he has to say.


    Take care and God bless!








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    Last edited by jnorman888; 08-18-2010 at 09:00 PM.

  10. #227
    HCR Ole' Head jnorman888's Avatar
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    All right, I'm done! I'll let you all have the last words!

  11. #228
    HCR Ole' Head PoLemiCs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    David, brother, Rick was correct in his assessment. This thread is HEART BREAKING! There are so many attacks it should grieve us all. You are a better brother than this as well! Yes Rick has made the same mistakes, as have I... For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. (James 3:2)

    Yet we have the standard set before us!

    Ephesians 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

    Colossians 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.


    Please fam! Be a part of the solution! Lean on God. Again, yes Rick has erred in his ways, as have I! Yes Rick has been inconsistent in who he has called out, as have I! So let's correct the record! Build each other up.

    This post does not achieve that goal. If you feel it has to be said, take it to PM. I say this now publicly in hopes that it will catch on with the general public.

    We are CHRISTIAN MEN AND WOMEN! Let's take care of our business accordingly.

    I pray you accept this as sound advice from a brother in Christ who loves you and desires your best.
    curtains close.......thank you E.....you a good dude......and with this quote I rest my case....one
    My NEW blog.....http://urbanreformed.com

  12. #229
    HCR Ole' Head JARZJR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newchild116 View Post
    JNORM, I am admitting that someone has influenced me to become a calvinist. I am influenced by SHAI LINNE. Initially, I thought his songs are heretical to me. I decided to look upon scripture to examine if what Shai is rapping is biblical and or not. By reading the scripture, I was convinced that God revealed the truth to me utilizing Shai's album. NOT EVERYONE who is a calvinists were converted like me. Jovan and Jazrjr are some of my brothers that confess that God truly revealed the truth alone without the aid of another human being.
    To be fair, I've never said that I came to the truth without the instruction of other reformed people...

    Of course I do believe that it was ultimately God who opened my eyes to the truth (as is the case for all things) but I would be lying if I said that I did not know of calvinism before I saw it in the scriptures...

    East Point Church, located in South Atlanta

  13. #230
    HCR Veterano newchild116's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JARZJR View Post
    To be fair, I've never said that I came to the truth without the instruction of other reformed people...

    Of course I do believe that it was ultimately God who opened my eyes to the truth (as is the case for all things) but I would be lying if I said that I did not know of calvinism before I saw it in the scriptures...
    Sorry for the miscommunication. But that was the message that I got from you from our facebook convo
    Soli Deo Gloria

  14. #231
    HCR Ole' Head JARZJR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newchild116 View Post
    Sorry for the miscommunication. But that was the message that I got from you from our facebook convo
    Is it recorded somewhere? I don't think I said that I was't influenced by anyone, I just said that i have believed aspects of it since late 05, and by the end of 06 i was fullfledged..

    East Point Church, located in South Atlanta

  15. #232
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    Its not of God... bump

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