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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    I did not say that. Rather that Cornelius walked fearfully before the LORD to an extent, but not in a salvific manner.
    So he was sorta saved but not really. So...was he a carnal Jew or something???....

    Again, you are making the blunder dispy's make when it comes to Salvation. If you do agree that people were saved in the Old Testament as you claim then Cornelius should be no problem to see the transition of the Covenant. He was a believer in the One True God who happened to live during the time of apostles and thus God revealed Jesus to him and his household. Thus he believed once it was revealed to him.

    For some reason Eternal you have left your thinking cap home. Don't you think that Cornelius was waiting for the Messiah just like every other believer of God during his day????....LOL..... I mean look the the Ethiopian Eunuch. Reading Isaiah!!!! The LORD was faithful to his people who were in the Land who had been waiting on his Son who had finally come.



    Wouldn't he have been circumcised and such then? Isn't this the issue with the God Worshippers of Acts? That they practiced along with the Jews, but did not convert?
    Does the text say that Cornelius wasn't circumcized???? I don't recall that. But it didn't matter anymore for the Gospel of Christ had come to them. For we are all one in Christ Jesus...Jew or Greek... Circumcized and Uncircumcized.... It's all there Eternal. Cornelius heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the first time and believed. God was gathering his Elect to himself. I mean good gracious God visited him in a vision and sent an Angel to tell him where to go. Now that ain't Election then you guys are totally missing it.


    With that aside, the plain truth is, the text says he was not yet saved. You keep skipping this over. The appeal to the OT saints and those who were alive at the time of Jesus, etc...saved is saved. Cornelius was NOT. Acts 11:14.
    No I am not. Cornelius hadn't heard of Jesus or Salvation in Jesus. But he believed in the one True God and that One True God revealed his Salvation through his Son he sent. How hard is that to believe? Was John the Baptist not saved? Scripture teaches he had the Spirit while in the WOMB!!! Did he confess Christ in the WOMB!!! Again....all these works base Salvation assertions are making my stomach turn.

    Cornelius was a Believer and then was shown who to believe and trust in from there. It's quite simple. John's Disciples were believers and were told to be baptized in Christ and believe in Christ from then on. ABRAHAM was given the Gospel over 4000 years prior that from his seed Salvation would come to the ends of the Earth. Thus Abraham believed God thus CHRIST. CHRIST IS GOD!!!!!!!

    Or.....

    Your system is wrong. Total Depravity/Inability needs to be reworked in order to accept the truths you have found here in this thread.
    You can't handle the Truth homie.

    Yes, according to your system, it is impossible for the unsaved to be doing what we find them to be doing in Acts 10, Jonah, and 2 Kings 17. Yet, we find them doing it anyways. So the options are to figure out a way to make the text fit the system, and make claims on the text that are not present, or to abandon or at least revisit the system itself.
    Oh my goodness. This is Covenantal Theology 101 here E. God saved people in the Old Testament too guy...LOL.... Jonah was saved right? Don't you believe that? Again, you are seriously tripping. The Bible is clear that the Spirit of God dwelled in the Prophets in the Old Covenant.

    1 Peter 1:10-12
    10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.



    You have truly missed the mark here guy. The people in the Old Testament received the same Grace through Jesus Christ. Christ was active in the Old Testament in the Godhead man. Ninevah was told to repent and believe in God. They did....God then witheld destruction to that Generation but they later fell off and were destroyed. But the point is that God was saving people back in the Old Testament as well.

    This seems all to boil down to your Motif that Christ went in the Earth to get King David, Isaiah, Moses, and them out of Hell....LOL.... But isn't it funny that Moses and Elijah both appeared with Christ at his Transfiguration.... I guess they both just MORPHED OUT OF HELL to see Christ and went right back....LOL.....



    What do you make of 2 Kings 17? The text says explicitly that these wicked idolaters "feared the LORD and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile."
    I make nothing of it. They were idolaters.

    This is exactly what you claimed was impossible. Yet it is explicitly stated here. That pagans, still in their sins, not saved or redeemed, "feared the LORD."
    Are you serious? Did you not read the next chapter of Hezekiah tearing down the idols they set up? Again....LOL.... you are redherring text to suit your fancy. Those people repented and feared the LORD... Just like us Eternal we all repented but still had idols in our life we had to tear down. It's not that hard to believe is it???

    WEEEEEAAAAKKKKKKK......



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  3. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post


    So he was sorta saved but not really. So...was he a carnal Jew or something???....


    No, he was not "sorta saved." You are trapped in your system. He was not a "Jew" at all. He was a Gentile, who gave money and assisted the Jews and practiced the religion to an extent, but was not saved.

    Again, you are making the blunder dispy's make when it comes to Salvation. If you do agree that people were saved in the Old Testament as you claim then Cornelius should be no problem to see the transition of the Covenant. He was a believer in the One True God who happened to live during the time of apostles and thus God revealed Jesus to him and his household. Thus he believed once it was revealed to him.

    For some reason Eternal you have left your thinking cap home. Don't you think that Cornelius was waiting for the Messiah just like every other believer of God during his day????....LOL..... I mean look the the Ethiopian Eunuch. Reading Isaiah!!!! The LORD was faithful to his people who were in the Land who had been waiting on his Son who had finally come.
    No, because those people WERE SAVED. The bible says Cornelius was NOT SAVED. Therefore you are throwing Cornelius, inappropriately, into the wrong category.

    Does the text say that Cornelius wasn't circumcized???? I don't recall that. But it didn't matter anymore for the Gospel of Christ had come to them. For we are all one in Christ Jesus...Jew or Greek... Circumcized and Uncircumcized.... It's all there Eternal. Cornelius heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the first time and believed. God was gathering his Elect to himself. I mean good gracious God visited him in a vision and sent an Angel to tell him where to go. Now that ain't Election then you guys are totally missing it.
    If he was saved beforehand, he would have been circumcised. He would have been a practicing Jew, under the covenant.



    No I am not. Cornelius hadn't heard of Jesus or Salvation in Jesus. But he believed in the one True God and that One True God revealed his Salvation through his Son he sent. How hard is that to believe? Was John the Baptist not saved? Scripture teaches he had the Spirit while in the WOMB!!! Did he confess Christ in the WOMB!!! Again....all these works base Salvation assertions are making my stomach turn.

    Cornelius was a Believer and then was shown who to believe and trust in from there. It's quite simple. John's Disciples were believers and were told to be baptized in Christ and believe in Christ from then on. ABRAHAM was given the Gospel over 4000 years prior that from his seed Salvation would come to the ends of the Earth. Thus Abraham believed God thus CHRIST. CHRIST IS GOD!!!!!!!
    Cornelius was not the same sort of believer as John was, or Abraham, etc. Those were all saved, before the cross ever took place. Cornelius, Acts 11 says, was NOT SAVED. So he is an entirely different category. Again, you are conflating two types of people. Authentically saved people who lived before the cross, and Cornelius who pleased God in some regard, yet was NOT SAVED.

    Two categories are SAVED and NOT SAVED.

    At dispute is that you must imagine that Cornelius was saved since he did good things. We reject that system. The bible says Cornelius was not yet saved. And the fact that he did revered God as he did shows that there is that capacity amongst the unsaved.


    Oh my goodness. This is Covenantal Theology 101 here E. God saved people in the Old Testament too guy...LOL.... Jonah was saved right? Don't you believe that? Again, you are seriously tripping. The Bible is clear that the Spirit of God dwelled in the Prophets in the Old Covenant.

    1 Peter 1:10-12
    10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.



    You have truly missed the mark here guy. The people in the Old Testament received the same Grace through Jesus Christ. Christ was active in the Old Testament in the Godhead man. Ninevah was told to repent and believe in God. They did....God then witheld destruction to that Generation but they later fell off and were destroyed. But the point is that God was saving people back in the Old Testament as well.

    This seems all to boil down to your Motif that Christ went in the Earth to get King David, Isaiah, Moses, and them out of Hell....LOL.... But isn't it funny that Moses and Elijah both appeared with Christ at his Transfiguration.... I guess they both just MORPHED OUT OF HELL to see Christ and went right back....LOL.....
    Of course Jonah was saved. That was a rant that truly missed the mark. I never appealed to Jonah the person, but THE BOOK, as I have been citing in the past few posts, as you should well know. That he preached to the pagans in NINEVEH, and they feared God yet were not saved. They believed Jonah's message, and under the order of the king changed their practice, but they did not yield their heart to God. Jonah never says they got saved, and in fact later works show how wicked of a nation they still were.



    I make nothing of it. They were idolaters.
    Well, you claimed that pagans can not fear God. Yet 2 Kings says explicitly that they did.

    Are you serious? Did you not read the next chapter of Hezekiah tearing down the idols they set up? Again....LOL.... you are redherring text to suit your fancy. Those people repented and feared the LORD... Just like us Eternal we all repented but still had idols in our life we had to tear down. It's not that hard to believe is it???

    WEEEEEAAAAKKKKKKK......
    You are not grasping the point. Again, try to read my post more than once, because this latest post in particular is ripe with misreadings on your part. From your mocking my supposed claim that Jonah was not saved to me saying that the God the bible speaks of Cornelius fearing was a pagan god, to now this notion that I am obtuse to the fact that these pagans in 2 Kings remained idolatrous pagans.

    You are wrong in your deceleration of what I am saying, repeatedly. I urge you to read the post slower, and perhaps twice, because this is all distracting.

    Brother, I said that they remained idolaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal
    What do you make of 2 Kings 17? The text says explicitly that these wicked idolaters "feared the LORD and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile."
    I cited that verse especially to show both parts of these pagans. That they both

    1. "feared the LORD"
    2. "and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile."

    So, clearly my point IS that they held onto their idolatrous behavior. They were not saved. Yet, somehow, they "feared the LORD" as the text says TWICE that they "feared the LORD," and at the same time it says TWICE that they did "not fear the LORD."

    This is the strange mix we find in the unrepentant sinner. The unsaved. Those outside of Christ. In some sense they are drawn to God and recognize His majesty, but yet they still hold onto their own ways and worship their own wills instead of Him. The point of turning then is when they come to full grips with who God is, and turn towards Him with all their heart, soul, and strength.

  4. #283
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    Yo,

    Now lets take a look at this people....



    John 20:21-23
    21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

    Acts 2
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.



    Uh oh.... Lookie here.... We have two times the Disciples recieving the Holy Spirit. So were they saved the first time or the second. Man, one must ponder what the heck is going on here.

    Anywho, lets set the record straight. The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit. There aren't multiple different spirits out there. However the Holy Spirit gives gifts. The Disciples were given the gift of tongues in Acts 2, not the gift of Salvation. They were already saved. The issue is that people are caught up in the error that people have to speak in tongues to be saved or something. Or the current one I have been dealing with that people who feared and prayed to God were not really saved.

    The point is that we must interpret scripture by scripture so that it doesn't contradict. For instance....When Jesus was Baptized and the Holy Spirit descended upon him it was not for Salvation. I repeat it was not for Salvation. Christ was being annointed as High Priest. There is so much more to pull out of that text...Like John the Baptist being from the tribe of Levi and in order for a person to become a priest in the Old Test they had to be washed by a Priest. There is so much there.

    But we must be concise with our beliefs. So when we see the Disciples receiving the Holy Spirit and the Authority to forgives sins and then receiving the Spirit again then given the the ability to speak in tongue we are not seeing the Holy Spirit being applied Salvically. They were already saved by Grace. Again, Grace is not earned nor did they have to do something to get it. Grace was already given to them by God. The Holy Spirit just gave them gifts and authority to do particular things.

    So when we see Cornelius, John's Disciples, Ethoipian Eunach, and etc receive the Spirit they are not being saved in the Salvic sense. For they already believed God/Christ it's just now they were being showed that God's Son Christ is NOW whom Salvation must be found in. No other name under the heavens by which man may be saved. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was new on the scene and these people were soaking it up like hot cakes b/c they had been waiting on the Messiah.

    So this doesn't pose any problems to Calvinistic Soteriology. For some reason people have this idea that people weren't saved until the Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed in the New Testament. But our Bibles tells us something differently. Unfortunately a Heresy from a Heretical and Erroneous book called the Gospel of Nicodemus has blinded people into believing Christ descended into Hell to preach his Gospel:

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...nicodemus.html

    And this is where the Patriarchs were like King David, Abraham, and even Adam. So, I employ you all to study to show yourselves approved. If anyone has any questions in this subject matter feel free to hit me up PM.



    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    Now it's cool if Brothers Cross over/But wat's the point of crossing over if you don't take the CROSS OVER~ shai

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    Yo,

    Now lets take a look at this people....


    John 20:21-23
    21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

    Acts 2
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


    Uh oh.... Lookie here.... We have two times the Disciples recieving the Holy Spirit. So were they saved the first time or the second. Man, one must ponder what the heck is going on here.
    Um, no? They didn't recieve a 2nd time. Only once, this "2nd time" is just being "filled with the Holy Spirit".

    *smacks self* I didn't read on lol I jumped the gun, go back to the starting line and get penalized
    Last edited by VIBE; 08-13-2010 at 02:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    No, he was not "sorta saved." You are trapped in your system. He was not a "Jew" at all. He was a Gentile, who gave money and assisted the Jews and practiced the religion to an extent, but was not saved.
    ..LOL... He was Gentile who feared God and Prayed to God....You can't get around it no matter how hard you try guy. You will submit to the text.



    No, because those people WERE SAVED. The bible says Cornelius was NOT SAVED. Therefore you are throwing Cornelius, inappropriately, into the wrong category.
    Show me where the Bible says Cornelius was not SAVED? It only shows that they had to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be Saved for this was the Gospel in how men were saved. It was the first years of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the transition of the Adminstration of the Covenant.





    If he was saved beforehand, he would have been circumcised. He would have been a practicing Jew, under the covenant.
    Pause it... right there guy. CIRCUMCISION DOES NOT SAVE!!!! Nor did it prove they were SAVED. Also you are implying that under the Old Covenant that Salvation was fully expressed as revealed in the New Covenant. Shame on you for that. All of the Pharisees were circumcized and practicing Judaism but they weren't saved Eternal. You are bursting your own bubble here.

    Circumcision of the Heart showed they were saved spiritually. Cornelius heart was circumcized prior to hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ for he believed in God and feared God and prayed to God.

    Now if you would please open your Bible to Psalms 50 with me.


    16 But to the wicked God says:
    “What right have you to declare My statutes,
    Or take My covenant in your mouth,
    17 Seeing you hate instruction
    And cast My words behind you?
    18 When you saw a thief, you consented[a] with him,
    And have been a partaker with adulterers.
    19 You give your mouth to evil,
    And your tongue frames deceit.
    20 You sit and speak against your brother;
    You slander your own mother’s son.
    21 These things you have done, and I kept silent;
    You thought that I was altogether like you;
    But I will rebuke you,
    And set them in order before your eyes.

    So for Luke to record that this was a DEVOUT MAN WHO FEARED GOD does not put him in this curse to the wicked to speak of the things of God.


    Cornelius was not the same sort of believer as John was, or Abraham, etc. Those were all saved, before the cross ever took place. Cornelius, Acts 11 says, was NOT SAVED. So he is an entirely different category. Again, you are conflating two types of people. Authentically saved people who lived before the cross, and Cornelius who pleased God in some regard, yet was NOT SAVED.
    How can a Pagan please God in any regard???...LOL.... Dude you have bumped your head.... Why wasn't Cornelius a believer like Abraham? Didn't he believe in Jesus once he heard the message? According to Jesus own words and the Gospel that the sons of Abraham were also Gentiles. Heck, Abraham was a Gentile his darn self.

    You are clearly missing the mark Eternal.



    Two categories are SAVED and NOT SAVED.

    At dispute is that you must imagine that Cornelius was saved since he did good things. We reject that system. The bible says Cornelius was not yet saved. And the fact that he did revered God as he did shows that there is that capacity amongst the unsaved.
    LOL.... Again, the Bible teaches that Cornelius was man who feared God and God heard his prayers. That means that he was already a Believer in the True God. Sorta like....um..... JOB!!! Job was a man who was blameless and devout. Again, you are missing the entire point of the book of Acts which stands for the Sequol. The Acts of the Apostles. The Great Commission. People from that moment on had to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved but it doesn't mean that there were no saved peoople. They just needed to be told of the change from Moses to Christ. From Levi to Christ. From the Temple to Christ. Will you please go read Hebrews homie...LOL....


    Of course Jonah was saved. That was a rant that truly missed the mark. I never appealed to Jonah the person, but THE BOOK, as I have been citing in the past few posts, as you should well know. That he preached to the pagans in NINEVEH, and they feared God yet were not saved. They believed Jonah's message, and under the order of the king changed their practice, but they did not yield their heart to God. Jonah never says they got saved, and in fact later works show how wicked of a nation they still were.
    How was Jonah saved guy when you just told me Cornelius was not saved b/c he hadn't heard of Christ yet? Again, your beliefs are wormwood. Bitter to grasp. You can't tell me that people were saved before Christ and then tell me Cornelius wasn't saved before Christ. Did everyone in the Old Testament fall away except for the names of the Patriarchs??? Are you that naive guy? What are the the Wise men who came to visit Christ the infant? Were they not saved either since we don't see them confessing!!!

    Preposterous!!!







    Well, you claimed that pagans can not fear God. Yet 2 Kings says explicitly that they did.
    LOL...the people repented. Did you even read the chapter?


    You are not grasping the point. Again, try to read my post more than once, because this latest post in particular is ripe with misreadings on your part. From your mocking my supposed claim that Jonah was not saved to me saying that the God the bible speaks of Cornelius fearing was a pagan god, to now this notion that I am obtuse to the fact that these pagans in 2 Kings remained idolatrous pagans.
    Did you read the next chapter??? Pagans can repent too you know. They can turn from their sins. If you would read the entire story there you will see that they were reforming their beliefs. The Kings had forgotten the way and the Law. It's not that hard.


    You are wrong in your deceleration of what I am saying, repeatedly. I urge you to read the post slower, and perhaps twice, because this is all distracting.

    Brother, I said that they remained idolaters.
    You obviously haven't read the book of 2 Kings. They tear their idols later. They were just ignorant of the Law and Truth. That happened to me when I first repented. Either way, God chose to send repentance to these people look at how you cleverly avoid that Truth. God revealed himself to them....uh...why didn't he do that to the Amalekites? What about the Philistines???... Again, you are missing the point of Election and his choosing to Love people.

    Cornelius was God's Elect. He was given a vision by God where Salvation could be found. It was now in his Son Jesus Christ.


    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    Now it's cool if Brothers Cross over/But wat's the point of crossing over if you don't take the CROSS OVER~ shai

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    Yo,

    Folks lets see what Eternal missing in 2 Kings 17....Again...Very cleverly did he not give the context of the passage. And trust me on this one...he did it on purpose.

    2 Kings 17

    34 To this day they continue practicing the former rituals; they do not fear the LORD, nor do they follow their statutes or their ordinances, or the law and commandment which the LORD had commanded the children of Jacob, whom He named Israel, 35 with whom the LORD had made a covenant and charged them, saying: “You shall not fear other gods, nor bow down to them nor serve them nor sacrifice to them; 36 but the LORD, who brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and an outstretched arm, Him you shall fear, Him you shall worship, and to Him you shall offer sacrifice. 37 And the statutes, the ordinances, the law, and the commandment which He wrote for you, you shall be careful to observe forever; you shall not fear other gods. 38 And the covenant that I have made with you, you shall not forget, nor shall you fear other gods. 39 But the LORD your God you shall fear; and He will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.” 40 However they did not obey, but they followed their former rituals. 41 So these nations feared the LORD, yet served their carved images; also their children and their children’s children have continued doing as their fathers did, even to this day.


    Again folks.... don't get spoon fed by people for your theology like certain individuals on here...hmmmm Rob..... Please go and look this stuff up for yourself. Eternal is eisegeting passages to try and make them say things they don't. Look at the mess he has created here with this passage.

    So these people did not fear the LORD in the same sense as recorded by Luke about Cornelius. Now look at Acts 10 here:

    Acts 10:4
    4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
    So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.


    Notice how God heard his prayers. Now we know that God does not hear the prayers of the wicked or unbelievers. He only hears the prayers of the righteous for they availeth much.

    So again, Cornelius (for the umpteenth time) was a Believer in the one True God, he was just being instructed in the way of the MASTER. King Jesus was not the mediator of the Covenant for there is only ONE mediator between God and man the MANNNNN Jesus the Christ!!!


    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    Now it's cool if Brothers Cross over/But wat's the point of crossing over if you don't take the CROSS OVER~ shai

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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    [COLOR="Black"][SIZE="2"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"]

    ..LOL... He was Gentile who feared God and Prayed to God....You can't get around it no matter how hard you try guy. You will submit to the text.
    Acts 11:14 says > and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

    WILL BE SAVED. This means he was not, to that point, yet saved. He was YET to be saved.


    Show me where the Bible says Cornelius was not SAVED? It only shows that they had to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be Saved for this was the Gospel in how men were saved. It was the first years of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the transition of the Adminstration of the Covenant.

    Acts 11:14 says > and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

    WILL BE SAVED. This means he was not, to that point, yet saved. He was YET to be saved.

    Pause it... right there guy. CIRCUMCISION DOES NOT SAVE!!!! Nor did it prove they were SAVED. Also you are implying that under the Old Covenant that Salvation was fully expressed as revealed in the New Covenant. Shame on you for that. All of the Pharisees were circumcized and practicing Judaism but they weren't saved Eternal. You are bursting your own bubble here.

    Circumcision of the Heart showed they were saved spiritually. Cornelius heart was circumcized prior to hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ for he believed in God and feared God and prayed to God.
    That is not the point. It is unecessary to remind me just because someone is circumcised they are saved. That was not what I said either. That is a red herring. Rather, if he was saved, under that covenant, then he would have been obligated to it. Not until Christ had the covenant met its climax in Him, the "end of the law" as Paul puts it.


    Now if you would please open your Bible to Psalms 50 with me.


    16 But to the wicked God says:
    “What right have you to declare My statutes,
    Or take My covenant in your mouth,
    17 Seeing you hate instruction
    And cast My words behind you?
    18 When you saw a thief, you consented[a] with him,
    And have been a partaker with adulterers.
    19 You give your mouth to evil,
    And your tongue frames deceit.
    20 You sit and speak against your brother;
    You slander your own mother’s son.
    21 These things you have done, and I kept silent;
    You thought that I was altogether like you;
    But I will rebuke you,
    And set them in order before your eyes.

    So for Luke to record that this was a DEVOUT MAN WHO FEARED GOD does not put him in this curse to the wicked to speak of the things of God.
    1. I am not sure of the point you are seeking to make here.

    2. God, in this passage, is speaking to Israel, as vs. 5-7 reveals, exemplified here:

    7 "Hear, O My people, and I will speak; O Israel, I will testify against you

    We also see that these wicked people hate God's discipline, as stated in vs. 16-17, yet they try to lay hold of God's covenant promises to declare themselves ok...

    16 But to the wicked God says, "What right have you to tell of My statutes And to take My covenant in your mouth? 17 "For you hate discipline, And you cast My words behind you.

    So God's words here are towards those who are obligated to His covenant, within Israel, who claim to be a part of this covenant and hold it up as a shield for their wickedness, yet reject its commands as well as God's discipline through it.

    Cornelius is of a different sort, again. He was not under the covenant. He is said to have not yet been saved. He was like those in 2 Kings, who feared God, yet were not in salvific relation with Him. They feared Him only in a sense, but not as the Almighty God of all Creation who is absolute Lord of their lives. Acts 11:14 states plainly that Cornelius was not saved. And he was a Gentile who was not under the law.
    How can a Pagan please God in any regard???...LOL.... Dude you have bumped your head.... Why wasn't Cornelius a believer like Abraham? Didn't he believe in Jesus once he heard the message? According to Jesus own words and the Gospel that the sons of Abraham were also Gentiles. Heck, Abraham was a Gentile his darn self.
    Again, your system is the problem here, not scripture. The bible shows time and time again, pagans doing what you say is impossible. Nineveh. The men in 2 Kings 17. Cornelius. You ask why Cornelius wasn't a believer like Abraham...well with time he did. He got the revelation from Peter, believed it like Abraham, and then he was a believer like Abraham. Not everyone comes at the same pace.

    Notice some things:

    1)22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you."

    Are you to tell me that this man, so entrenched in the nation of Israel, he had NEVER heard of Jesus? Jesus was ALL THE BUZZ! He had NEVER heard of Jesus?

    Of course he did. Just look at the scripture:

    37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.


    Yes, Cornelius knew all about Jesus. He knew about His death, and that the Holy Spirit and anointed Him with power, etc. He knew it all.

    What he did not yet know was the matter of the Gentiles being accepted through faith without being a Jew. That was the purpose of Peter's vision:

    34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)

    Cornelius is such a man, but did not know about faith and salvation, etc. He knew about the law and its requirements and had not submitted to them. As Peter discussed the crucifixion of Jesus, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they talked in tongues, and the people became more convinced of this message that there is no partiality, and the flesh/law was completed in Jesus Christ. This is the message of Paul:

    Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

    Clearly, he was not saved. Acts 11:14 says he was not saved. And next we will see that he actually worshiped Peter in Acts 10:25

    2) 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.


    Here is your "saved" fellow, WORSHIPING A MAN! If he was saved, why would he worship Peter? It is because he was still confused, wasn't totally subject to the Lord, but was on his way there.


    How was Jonah saved guy when you just told me Cornelius was not saved b/c he hadn't heard of Christ yet?
    I never told you that. Ever. The bible says emphatically that Cornelius HAD heard of Jesus. I have said that Cornelius was not saved because Acts 11 says he was not saved.


    Again, your beliefs are wormwood. Bitter to grasp. You can't tell me that people were saved before Christ and then tell me Cornelius wasn't saved before Christ. Did everyone in the Old Testament fall away except for the names of the Patriarchs??? Are you that naive guy? What are the the Wise men who came to visit Christ the infant? Were they not saved either since we don't see them confessing!!!
    You are not following what I am saying. Again I urge you to read slower and with an intent to understand, because you keep confusing my words with something totally foreign to my position. Again, I have said repeatedly that OT saints were saved by faith in God, laying hold to the promises of God fulfilled in Christ. I amened your use of Hebrews 11 at that point. What I continue to tell you is that I see no evidence to place Cornelius in that category. In fact the bible presents emphatic evidence that Cornelius is in the UNSAVED category, since Acts 11:14 says that he was not yet saved. Two totally different categories. I have said this repeatedly, and you continue to knock down strawmen. Please, Seal, I ask that you respect my position enough to treat it fairly and critique it on its own merits. I am willing to listen, and think through critiques of what I am saying, but I am spending too much time rejecting strawmen and reminding you of what I am actually saying, only to have yet another post of strawmen.


    LOL...the people repented. Did you even read the chapter?
    Brother! The chapter concludes thusly,

    41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also served their idols; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

    Again, you are dead wrong.

    Did you read the next chapter??? Pagans can repent too you know. They can turn from their sins. If you would read the entire story there you will see that they were reforming their beliefs. The Kings had forgotten the way and the Law. It's not that hard.
    What?

    You obviously haven't read the book of 2 Kings. They tear their idols later. They were just ignorant of the Law and Truth. That happened to me when I first repented. Either way, God chose to send repentance to these people look at how you cleverly avoid that Truth. God revealed himself to them....uh...why didn't he do that to the Amalekites? What about the Philistines???... Again, you are missing the point of Election and his choosing to Love people.
    What?

    Bro, please explain what you mean with these quotes, and how it relates to the topic at hand. Are you referring to Israel and its kings? Or are you referring to the nations that inhabited the land and scripture says that,

    41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also served their idols; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

    Please explain so that I will know how to adequately respond, because I do not want to misrepresent what you are trying to say, due to my confusion. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Yo,

    Folks lets see what Eternal missing in 2 Kings 17....Again...Very cleverly did he not give the context of the passage. And trust me on this one...he did it on purpose.

    2 Kings 17

    34 To this day they continue practicing the former rituals; they do not fear the LORD, nor do they follow their statutes or their ordinances, or the law and commandment which the LORD had commanded the children of Jacob, whom He named Israel, 35 with whom the LORD had made a covenant and charged them, saying: “You shall not fear other gods, nor bow down to them nor serve them nor sacrifice to them; 36 but the LORD, who brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and an outstretched arm, Him you shall fear, Him you shall worship, and to Him you shall offer sacrifice. 37 And the statutes, the ordinances, the law, and the commandment which He wrote for you, you shall be careful to observe forever; you shall not fear other gods. 38 And the covenant that I have made with you, you shall not forget, nor shall you fear other gods. 39 But the LORD your God you shall fear; and He will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.” 40 However they did not obey, but they followed their former rituals. 41 So these nations feared the LORD, yet served their carved images; also their children and their children’s children have continued doing as their fathers did, even to this day.


    Again folks.... don't get spoon fed by people for your theology like certain individuals on here...hmmmm Rob..... Please go and look this stuff up for yourself. Eternal is eisegeting passages to try and make them say things they don't. Look at the mess he has created here with this passage.

    So these people did not fear the LORD in the same sense as recorded by Luke about Cornelius. Now look at Acts 10 here:

    Acts 10:4
    4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
    So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.


    Notice how God heard his prayers. Now we know that God does not hear the prayers of the wicked or unbelievers. He only hears the prayers of the righteous for they availeth much.

    So again, Cornelius (for the umpteenth time) was a Believer in the one True God, he was just being instructed in the way of the MASTER. King Jesus was not the mediator of the Covenant for there is only ONE mediator between God and man the MANNNNN Jesus the Christ!!!


    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    Brother, why the false accusations? !

    Check this link where I first brought up the issue: http://holyculture.net/forum/showpos...&postcount=262

    My entire point the whole time, that every one has read, is that they did not fully repent. Look here at this quote of mine from earlier this morning:

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal
    Brother, I said that they remained idolaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal
    What do you make of 2 Kings 17? The text says explicitly that these wicked idolaters "feared the LORD and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile."
    I cited that verse especially to show both parts of these pagans. That they both

    1. "feared the LORD"
    2. "and served their own gods according to the custom of the nations from among whom they had been carried away into exile."

    So, clearly my point IS that they held onto their idolatrous behavior. They were not saved. Yet, somehow, they "feared the LORD" as the text says TWICE that they "feared the LORD," and at the same time it says TWICE that they did "not fear the LORD."

    This is the strange mix we find in the unrepentant sinner. The unsaved. Those outside of Christ. In some sense they are drawn to God and recognize His majesty, but yet they still hold onto their own ways and worship their own wills instead of Him. The point of turning then is when they come to full grips with who God is, and turn towards Him with all their heart, soul, and strength.
    You are sorely misrepresenting me here. I have not skewed the context, and I have not manipulated the text. Your claim here that I,

    Very cleverly did he not give the context of the passage. And trust me on this one...he did it on purpose.
    Why assasinate my character? Please, I am trying to ensure this is a fruitful dialogue. I have got on others for doing this to you and others in this thread. I encourage you as well to take heed. Please, let us keep this civil without the character assasinations.

    We are men of God and can discuss theology and doctrine, and exegete the scripture in a mature manner.

    If you think I am not representing scripture accurately, simply do the work to show me how. Please no more false accusations like this.

    My point the entire time is to show that they both feared the LORD somehow, and yet were not saved, and never became saved. The lesson learned there is that the sinner can indeed fear God, recall what you wrote here:
    Quote Originally Posted by seal
    Why are you saying Cornelius wasn't saved but he feared God? Show me in scripture where Pagans feared the ONE TRUE GOD? Again, weak and I mean super weak.
    This passage shows how the unsaved can "fear the LORD" yet not turn to Him. Or in Cornelius' case, fear God AND turn to Him.

    The similarity that they both share is that they feared God while they were unsaved. You wanted proof that we can interpret Cornelius this way, that a pagan could fear God. You didn't think it was possible, and this is why Cornelius MUST have been saved, even though Acts 11:14 says he was not (not to mention him knowing all about Jesus yet not turning his life to Him, and even further worshiping Peter, a mere man!). So now, through 2 Kings, we see that it is possible for the unsaved, wicked pagans to fear God. In their case, they remained in their sin, as I have said all along, in every post. In Corenlius' case, he turned to God and was saved. Amen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal View Post
    Acts 11:14 says > and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

    WILL BE SAVED. This means he was not, to that point, yet saved. He was YET to be saved.

    Acts 11:14 says > and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

    WILL BE SAVED. This means he was not, to that point, yet saved. He was YET to be saved.
    He had not been saved according to the Covenant of the Son of God. Just like the Ethiopian Eunuch and John's Disciples. Again Eternal...John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb before he confessed Jesus is LORD. Again, you are eisegeting the passage to keep your twisted Doctrine.

    King David Saved.
    Abraham Saved.
    Noah Saved.
    Enoch Saved.


    All these people were saved before the times of Christ. Cornelius was saved as well he was just there during the time of of the Transition of the Covenant. Again you are missing the mark.



    That is not the point. It is unecessary to remind me just because someone is circumcised they are saved. That was not what I said either. That is a red herring. Rather, if he was saved, under that covenant, then he would have been obligated to it. Not until Christ had the covenant met its climax in Him, the "end of the law" as Paul puts it.
    Again you are missing the Gospel here. Repeat this with me Eternal.... THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. Cornelius had Faith. He was a son of Abraham and he it was accounted to him as rightouesness b/c he believed in God. Notice how he believed the message Peter spoke while he was still speaking. Why??? He already knew and believed in God.


    Cornelius is of a different sort, again. He was not under the covenant. He is said to have not yet been saved. He was like those in 2 Kings, who feared God, yet were not in salvific relation with Him. They feared Him only in a sense, but not as the Almighty God of all Creation who is absolute Lord of their lives. Acts 11:14 states plainly that Cornelius was not saved. And he was a Gentile who was not under the law.
    This is a ridiculous. How can Cornelius prayers be heard if he is of a different sort? The Bible is clear God doesn't hear the prayers of the wicked. Yet the passage shows that Cornelius prayer and his giving was before God. Again you have missed the mark Dispy.


    Again, your system is the problem here, not scripture. The bible shows time and time again, pagans doing what you say is impossible. Nineveh. The men in 2 Kings 17. Cornelius. You ask why Cornelius wasn't a believer like Abraham...well with time he did. He got the revelation from Peter, believed it like Abraham, and then he was a believer like Abraham. Not everyone comes at the same pace.
    LOL.... Not everyone comes at the same pace....LOL.... Abraham didn't see Christ until he DIED.... Are you kidding me Eternal? Listen to yourself. Abraham never confessed Christ in his Lifetime and he was saved? How can your theology account for such a thing? It can't. Case and point.



    Notice some things:

    1)22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you."

    Are you to tell me that this man, so entrenched in the nation of Israel, he had NEVER heard of Jesus? Jesus was ALL THE BUZZ! He had NEVER heard of Jesus?

    Of course he did. Just look at the scripture:

    37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.


    Yes, Cornelius knew all about Jesus. He knew about His death, and that the Holy Spirit and anointed Him with power, etc. He knew it all.
    How does this help your point? Him knowning Jesus Ministry but being VISITED BY GOD IN A VISION AND TOLD TO GO TO HIS DISCIPLE PETER is totally different....LOL... You have to be kidding me.


    What he did not yet know was the matter of the Gentiles being accepted through faith without being a Jew. That was the purpose of Peter's vision:
    ...LOL... The Gentiles were being grafted in the church long before it was revealed. RAHAB RING A BELL.



    Cornelius is such a man, but did not know about faith and salvation, etc. He knew about the law and its requirements and had not submitted to them. As Peter discussed the crucifixion of Jesus, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they talked in tongues, and the people became more convinced of this message that there is no partiality, and the flesh/law was completed in Jesus Christ. This is the message of Paul:

    Clearly, he was not saved. Acts 11:14 says he was not saved. And next we will see that he actually worshiped Peter in Acts 10:25

    Here is your "saved" fellow, WORSHIPING A MAN! If he was saved, why would he worship Peter? It is because he was still confused, wasn't totally subject to the Lord, but was on his way there.
    Are you kidding me???....LOL.... John fell down to worship an Angel and the Angel told him not to do it either. Does that mean that John wasn't save homie???

    Eternal look at you. Grabbing at straws. Again, the Scripture says that him and his entire family feared God. He prayed to God. God heard his prayer. He was a believer who needed to be instructed in the way of Jesus and after he was told the Gospel they wer given the gift of the Spirit to speak in tongues. This was a showing to the Jews that they Gentiles were grafted in to the Tree as well.




    I never told you that. Ever. The bible says emphatically that Cornelius HAD heard of Jesus. I have said that Cornelius was not saved because Acts 11 says he was not saved.
    Again you are missing the Elephant in the room question. You said that Jonah and Abraham were saved. But can you show me where they confessed and believed in Jesus Christ for Salvation? SINCE YOU CAN'T!!! I am showing you how since you believed they were saved (1 Peter 1) then Cornelius was saved as well even up to the moment he heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.




    You are not following what I am saying. Again I urge you to read slower and with an intent to understand, because you keep confusing my words with something totally foreign to my position. Again, I have said repeatedly that OT saints were saved by faith in God, laying hold to the promises of God fulfilled in Christ. I amened your use of Hebrews 11 at that point. What I continue to tell you is that I see no evidence to place Cornelius in that category. In fact the bible presents emphatic evidence that Cornelius is in the UNSAVED category, since Acts 11:14 says that he was not yet saved. Two totally different categories. I have said this repeatedly, and you continue to knock down strawmen. Please, Seal, I ask that you respect my position enough to treat it fairly and critique it on its own merits. I am willing to listen, and think through critiques of what I am saying, but I am spending too much time rejecting strawmen and reminding you of what I am actually saying, only to have yet another post of strawmen.
    HOW ARE THEY SAVED ETERNAL??? According to you Cornelius wasn't saved even though God answers his prayers. Your position is ridiculous. You can't have it both ways. You can't tell me people in the Old Testament were saved but Cornelius wasn't b/c he hadn't believed in Christ yet. The Revelation of Christ hadn't been revealed to him in a vision yet. It's as clear as day.




    Brother! The chapter concludes thusly,

    41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also served their idols; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

    Again, you are dead wrong.
    Puh please guy...read it in context!!!!

    34 To this day they continue practicing the former rituals; they do not fear the LORD, nor do they follow their statutes or their ordinances, or the law and commandment which the LORD had commanded the children of Jacob, whom He named Israel, 35 with whom the LORD had made a covenant and charged them, saying: “You shall not fear other gods, nor bow down to them nor serve them nor sacrifice to them; 36 but the LORD, who brought you up from the land of Egypt with great power and an outstretched arm, Him you shall fear, Him you shall worship, and to Him you shall offer sacrifice. 37 And the statutes, the ordinances, the law, and the commandment which He wrote for you, you shall be careful to observe forever; you shall not fear other gods.

    Why are you missing this?? They were not suppose to worship other Gods. They were doing so rebelliously.... Hezekiah came in the next chapter if you would read on and correct that... Again you are butchering narrative and the scriptures!!!...LOL... give me a break.

    What?


    What?

    Bro, please explain what you mean with these quotes, and how it relates to the topic at hand. Are you referring to Israel and its kings? Or are you referring to the nations that inhabited the land and scripture says that,


    Please explain so that I will know how to adequately respond, because I do not want to misrepresent what you are trying to say, due to my confusion. Thank you.
    Eternal are you serious... Look at the previous verse then the one you are EISEGETING!!!

    40 However they did not obey, but they followed their former rituals.

    What are the former rituals Eternal??? To worship multiple Gods. Stop doing Keyword searches and creating ridiculous doctrine. Pagans don't fear God and worship him in Spirit and Truth. Pagan's prayers aren't answered by God. Are you serious???

    I'm done.


    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    Now it's cool if Brothers Cross over/But wat's the point of crossing over if you don't take the CROSS OVER~ shai

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    You really don't seem to be getting what I am saying. You are chasing red herrings that are foreign to what I have written. Perhaps we have gone as far as we can, because at this point I will only be repeating myself in attempt to show you how for some reason you keep misreading my positions and arguing against something I am not claiming, and in other instances urging me to affirm what I already do. So I will follow your wisdom and likewise be done. I am confident that a steady reading of my posts by those who are following along will see the same disconnect I do. So I bid farewell.

    I am open to discuss with others who may have critiques, challenges, or questions. Just me and seal seem to be at an impasse, where we are simply missing eachother somehow. No hard feelings, thanks for the convo and the challenging thoughts.

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    It's like we need to put together some kind of online doctrinal statement matrix type thing so we could understand what we saying.

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