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    Default Arminian Today

    For my Arminian brothers I'm neutral btw

    http://arminiantoday.blogspot.com/search/label/Election

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    The person in hell will be there because of their sins and their refusal to follow Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Romans 1:18-32). Just as Heaven is a prepared place for a prepared people so Hell is a prepared place for unprepared people. No doubt the elect will be in Heaven with Jesus but the idea that those predestined to hell apart from their own sins and their own rejection of Jesus Christ, in the words of Wesley, makes our blood boil.
    Don't understand the Free Willies point on that bolded part. Don't believe positions believe the bolded part.
    Last edited by Ras; 05-25-2010 at 06:30 AM.
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    Interesting. Some of the things he (the writer of the site) posits as 'problems for Calvinists' really aren't. And some of the things he says that Arminians believe (in apparent contrast to Calvinists) Calvinists also believe.

    Example:
    The Arminian understanding is obviously different to say the least. We believe that God does indeed draw sinners unto Himself through the preaching of the gospel of His Son but we believe that this drawing is not irresistible. In fact, reformation Arminianism holds the opposite: that the sinner can resist the Spirit and resist His conviction (Luke 7:30; Acts 7:51).
    We don't disagree with this part. Sinners can and do resist the Holy Spirit regularly. We'd add, however, that sinners resist the Spirit until God has determined (according to His will) that they will resist no more (and then He steps in and changes their heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh - Ezekiel 36:25-27). God's grace is resistible....until He says it's not.


    While we believe that salvation is a work of grace, it is a gift that is to received (Romans 6:23). Salvation is conditioned upon faith in the Lord Jesus and a person must exercise faith to be born again (John 3:3-7; Titus 3:5-7). This salvation is conditional from start to finish upon our faith in the Lord Jesus (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Corinthians 9:24-10:21; 15:1-2; 2 Corinthians 1:24; Ephesians 3:17; Philippians 2:12-15; Colossians 1:21-23; 3:1-4; etc.).
    No problem with the above passage. Salvation isn't conditioned upon anything else in reformed theology but faith alone in Christ alone apart from works. And the person exercising faith in God actually does the believing (not 'God doing the believing for you', as some of have erroneously stated).
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    Yo,

    I'd add that God the Spirit is resistable to those he resist himself (Will the Spirit of God dwell in Ba'al's children I think not) and he's just madd annoying to sinners b/c they supress the Truth in unrighteousness. When Stephen the LORD's Martyr was rebuking the Sandherdrin (Saul and them) taking them through their history he told them they resisted the Holy Spirit which guided the pens of the writers of the Torah. So God the Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that annoys ever sinner every day where they see that their ways end up in death and destruction.

    When that sinner sees that law even the law of the land that is in line with scripture. I.E. Drunk driver drives and kills someone in an accident and they feel that remorse on their conscious and the guilt. The Spirit of Truth is agitating them for they knew better but chose to act recklessly. It is that same Spirit of Truth that annoys sinners whenever Jesus is brought up at your conversation at lunch today where the room gets silent and everyone is listening to you all of a sudden. Has that ever happened to you? Isn't it surreal? Such a powerful witness imo to the Authority of Christ that when his name is brought up and discussed aloud people get madd silent around you to see what you are saying.

    Just some ranting tangents...


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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    No problem with the above passage. Salvation isn't conditioned upon anything else in reformed theology but faith alone in Christ alone apart from works. And the person exercising faith in God actually does the believing (not 'God doing the believing for you', as some of have erroneously stated).
    Are you serious? You mean you've been dogging me about saying this and someone posts the same thing from a website and you have no problem with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arminian Dude
    While we believe that salvation is a work of grace, it is a gift that is to received (Romans 6:23). Salvation is conditioned upon faith in the Lord Jesus and a person must exercise faith to be born again (John 3:3-7; Titus 3:5-7). This salvation is conditional from start to finish upon our faith in the Lord Jesus (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Corinthians 9:24-10:21; 15:1-2; 2 Corinthians 1:24; Ephesians 3:17; Philippians 2:12-15; Colossians 1:21-23; 3:1-4; etc.).
    You can't have "no problem" with that statement if you believe in unconditional election, can you? I said the same thing this guy is saying without going to any website.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROB
    Faith is what I believe connects me to my salvation. My fight is to maintain my faith. As one of the questions in this quiz showed, we can have our faith "shipwrecked" but Calvinism would automatically slap 1 John 2:19 on that situation.

    The assurance I have is conditional, not unconditional. Calvinism gives people a false sense of security and causes them to not believe the warnings about falling away from faith can apply to them.
    Here is a couple of places the condition I spoke of is found in the scriptures:

    Hebrews 3:14
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Romans 11:20-21
    20 Thou sayest well! Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear;
    21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
    Last edited by ROB; 05-25-2010 at 10:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    Are you serious? You mean you've been dogging me about saying this and someone posts the same thing from a website and you have no problem with it?



    You can't have "no problem" with that statement if you believe in unconditional election, can you? I said the same thing this guy is saying without going to any website.
    Your understanding of what we mean by those terms (and the arminian guys as well) is whats wrong... We would disagree with you on what these definitions look like...

    Of course, salvation is conditioned on faith. The question is, how does a wicked human heart produce faith? The answer of course is, "it doesn't". Indeed, it cannot. The Holy Spirit must take out the heart of stone and give a heart of flesh. We get new eyes of Faith to behold the Truth. The unconditional part come in as to who exactly the Holy Spirit grants a new heart to. That is why we say election is unconditional. The Spirit blows where He will and you don't know where He comes from or where He's going.


    Last edited by JARZJR; 05-25-2010 at 11:12 AM.

    East Point Church, located in South Atlanta

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    Quote Originally Posted by JARZJR View Post
    Your understanding of what we mean by those terms (and the arminian guys as well) is whats wrong... We would disagree with you on what these definitions look like...


    ???

    Please explain what you mean. Did you read the full statement that Kerry said he had no problem with?

    I bolded the portion I was speaking of.

    Calvinists don't believe salvation is conditional, they believe it's unconditional, right?
    Last edited by ROB; 05-25-2010 at 11:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    ???

    Please explain what you mean. Did you read the full statement that Kerry said he had no problem with?

    I bolded the portion I was speaking of.

    Calvinists don't believe salvation is conditional, they believe it's unconditional, right?
    This again shows you don't read what we write or tell you Rob...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    ???

    Please explain what you mean. Did you read the full statement that Kerry said he had no problem with?

    I bolded the portion I was speaking of.

    Calvinists don't believe salvation is conditional, they believe it's unconditional, right?
    I edited the post... read it again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JARZJR View Post
    Your understanding of what we mean by those terms (and the arminian guys as well) is whats wrong... We would disagree with you on what these definitions look like...

    Of course, salvation is conditioned on faith. The question is, how does a wicked human heart produce faith? The answer of course is, "it doesn't". Indeed, it cannot. The Holy Spirit must take out the heart of stone and give a heart of flesh. We get new eyes of Faith to behold the Truth. The unconditional part come in as to who exactly the Holy Spirit grants a new heart to. That is why we say election is unconditional. The Spirit blows where He will and you don't know where He comes from or where He's going.

    That seems to always be the case which is exactly why its almost impossible for me to have this discussion with a Calvinist. Same terms different meanings... each of us pointing the finger saying "No, you're wrong". LOL
    Lo torcido no puede enderezarse, Y lo que falta no se puede contar. Eclesiastes 1:15

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    Interesting. Some of the things he (the writer of the site) posits as 'problems for Calvinists' really aren't. And some of the things he says that Arminians believe (in apparent contrast to Calvinists) Calvinists also believe.

    Example:


    We don't disagree with this part. Sinners can and do resist the Holy Spirit regularly. We'd add, however, that sinners resist the Spirit until God has determined (according to His will) that they will resist no more (and then He steps in and changes their heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh - Ezekiel 36:25-27). God's grace is resistible....until He says it's not.




    No problem with the above passage. Salvation isn't conditioned upon anything else in reformed theology but faith alone in Christ alone apart from works. And the person exercising faith in God actually does the believing (not 'God doing the believing for you', as some of have erroneously stated).
    To the last point, we'd probably argue that one must be first born again to believe instead of believing and then being born again.
    "He who hates, disguises it with his lips, and lays up deceit within himself; When he speaks kindly, do not believ him, for there are seven abominations in his heart." Proverbs 26

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    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    That seems to always be the case which is exactly why its almost impossible for me to have this discussion with a Calvinist. Same terms different meanings... each of us pointing the finger saying "No, you're wrong". LOL
    Well, it doesn't have to be that way. Please demonstrate from the scriptures that a human heart can produce saving faith (or any other thing that is pleasing to God) apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit before hand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JARZJR View Post

    Of course, salvation is conditioned on faith. The question is, how does a wicked human heart produce faith? The answer of course is, "it doesn't". The Holy Spirit must take out the heart of stone and give a heart of flesh. We get knew eyes of Faith to behold the Truth. The unconditional part come in as to who exactly the Holy Spirit grants a new heart to. That is why we say election is unconditional. The Spirit blows where He will and you don't know where He comes from or where He's going.
    This is what I thought you believed, so I'm not confused by your definition.

    I believe Romans 10:17 tells us how faith comes:

    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

    I believe the guy on the website said it right when He spoke of God using preaching to "seek people to worship Him in Spirit and truth" ala John 4:23. It makes no sense for Him to "seek" if He has already predetermined who He will give the necessary heart they need in order to receive salvation.
    Last edited by ROB; 05-25-2010 at 11:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    That seems to always be the case which is exactly why its almost impossible for me to have this discussion with a Calvinist. Same terms different meanings... each of us pointing the finger saying "No, you're wrong". LOL
    It's not the same terms different meanings we have the same verses different meanings. I.E. God desires all to come to repentance. Arminians/Semi Pelagians say all as in everyone a.k.a. Universal. Calvinist/Reformed say all as in all types of man as stated in the first 3 verses.

    So it's not a semantics battle good sir.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JARZJR View Post
    Well, it doesn't have to be that way. Please demonstrate from the scriptures that a human heart can produce saving faith (or any other thing that is pleasing to God) apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit before hand...
    John, the Roman centurion who got his servant healed, the woman at the well, etc. how did they receive faith?

    They both heard of Jesus and believed what they heard, so it profited them. Faith came by hearing, Romans 10:17.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    That seems to always be the case which is exactly why its almost impossible for me to have this discussion with a Calvinist. Same terms different meanings... each of us pointing the finger saying "No, you're wrong". LOL
    This is why cats need to show patience in having those kinds of discussions. Having a discussion does not have to be "impossible" I have had plenty of great convos with "non calvinist" even if we ended up on different sides of the table. Both sides should seek to understand each others position but a lot of times that fails to happen. I have seen a lot of Calvinist cats quick to be like "I already know what your going to say I use to think like you" and I believe that is wrong they should give a person a chance to get out their thoughts and objections. I have also seen a lot of non calvinists not have a clear understanding of the Calvinist position (even though they swear up and down they do). Chances are if every calvinist you talk to says you missunderstand the calvinistic position then the "non calvinist" should be humble enough to examine the issue in more detail. My man Bmorr has a great song called "Doctrine" which deals with us as Christians being able to build in a respectable manner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    This is what I thought you believed, so I'm not confused by your definition.

    I believe Romans 10:17 tells us how faith comes:

    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

    I believe the guy on the website said it right when He spoke of God using preaching to "seek people to worship Him in Spirit and truth" ala John 4:23. It makes no sense for Him to "seek" if He has already predetermined who He will give the necessary heart they need in order to receive salvation.
    Well how can one hear the word of God Rob without the being regenerated? If Faith came by hearing alone how come sinners don't listen to the guys with the Bull horn on these campuses and on the corners if all it took was someone screaming at you?

    Paul had already spoke that the carnal mind will not submit to the Truth of God nor can it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JARZJR View Post
    Well, it doesn't have to be that way. Please demonstrate from the scriptures that a human heart can produce saving faith (or any other thing that is pleasing to God) apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit before hand...
    The road to Damascus.. though you will probably argue the opposite using the same text right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet storm View Post
    This is why cats need to show patience in having those kinds of discussions. Having a discussion does not have to be "impossible" I have had plenty of great convos with "non calvinist" even if we ended up on different sides of the table. Both sides should seek to understand each others position but a lot of times that fails to happen. I have seen a lot of Calvinist cats quick to be like "I already know what your going to say I use to think like you" and I believe that is wrong they should give a person a chance to get out their thoughts and objections. I have also seen a lot of non calvinists not have a clear understanding of the Calvinist position (even though they swear up and down they do). Chances are if every calvinist you talk to says you missunderstand the calvinistic position then the "non calvinist" should be humble enough to examine the issue in more detail. My man Bmorr has a great song called "Doctrine" which deals with us as Christians being able to build in a respectable manner.
    Thank you for saying that... that was spot on. That scenario is usually what turns me completely away from building a convo. Its incredibly frustrating to have someone continually put words in your mouth.
    Last edited by David L; 05-25-2010 at 11:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    This again shows you don't read what we write or tell you Rob...
    Seal, are you trying to start an argument with me or are really trying to build?

    Do you read what I write or do you just have me pegged as a Semi Pelagian in your mind so no matter what I type you read what you think I'm saying instead of what I'm saying?

    Why don't you just allow me to talk with John since you can't seem to talk with me in respectful way?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Well how can one hear the word of God Rob without the being regenerated? If Faith came by hearing alone how come sinners don't listen to the guys with the Bull horn on these campuses and on the corners if all it took was someone screaming at you?

    Paul had already spoke that the carnal mind will not submit to the Truth of God nor can it.


    Grace and Peace,
    seal
    They can hear with their ears.

    Do you really know the in's and out's of regeneration? How many times is that word in the NT?

    So you don't believe Romans 10:17?

    This verse tells us how faith comes and it didn't say anything about a person having to be regenerated in the verses around it.
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