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Thread: Are we sinners?

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    Default Are we sinners?

    In the midst of some of the stuff going on in the HHH community, in recommendations on how to minister to people, it is common(as I've seen it in interviews, bulletin boards, social media, etc.) for leaders in HHH to say, "we are all sinners so ..... and we need God's grace ...."

    Many in this community are very theological and try to hold a high standard on "truth", yet so cavalierly in my opinion people will say "we are all sinners so .....".

    Why is that? Why in this community where there are many who are almost professional fault finders does such a mentality go without edification?

    In my opinion, to tell a believer they are a sinner and not teach the biblical standard for seeking righteousness is a stumbling block for people to not have the wages of sin in their life.

    Not to be legalistic and be perfect or be depressed but SEEKing to be perfect(Matt 5:48), knowing that BEing a sinner(by habit) and calling ourselves knowing God is inconsistent(I John 2 & 3), but also having confidence that IF we do sin(a true mistake, not habit), God will forgive us(I John 2) and that he has given us a set of principles to never fall(II Peter 1).

    The Word says that all HAVE sinned(essentially past tense) and come short of God's glory but also tells us that sanctification makes our sins(by habit) our past(I Corinthians 6). Jesus has said that whoever commits a sin is the servant of sin(John 8). Yet, many serious believers, ministers of the gospel, continue to say we ARE sinners.

    If we have known God for many years, know His word, pray, seek His guidance, and we aren't sinning less, accepting sin less, getting closer to Jesus' desire for perfection, then we aren't using all the tools the Bible has. For me, I'm nowhere near perfect but using Biblical principles, my messups are much less than 5-10 years ago and I want to be less sinful next year.

    I refuse to have a sin consciousness and sin humility that I am a sinner and I sincerely pray that there is less acceptance of this including the cavalier statement "we are all sinners so ..."

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    sin like the word love has a bunch of different meanings in the Bible. No believer can live a loving embrace lifestyle of sin. I John makes that pretty clear. But can believers miss the mark and fall short. Sure. I think that's more of what they mean. We all going to miss the mark because we still have old nature.

    As far as sinned, (past tense). A person on the other side can easy go to other scriptures that show that Paul called himself the chief of sinners. I John talks about if we sin we have an advocate with the Father (Jesus). So this can just go in circles with the proof text debates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aficianado_jc View Post
    In the midst of some of the stuff going on in the HHH community, in recommendations on how to minister to people, it is common(as I've seen it in interviews, bulletin boards, social media, etc.) for leaders in HHH to say, "we are all sinners so ..... and we need God's grace ...."

    Many in this community are very theological and try to hold a high standard on "truth", yet so cavalierly in my opinion people will say "we are all sinners so .....".

    Why is that? Why in this community where there are many who are almost professional fault finders does such a mentality go without edification?

    In my opinion, to tell a believer they are a sinner and not teach the biblical standard for seeking righteousness is a stumbling block for people to not have the wages of sin in their life.

    Not to be legalistic and be perfect or be depressed but SEEKing to be perfect(Matt 5:48), knowing that BEing a sinner(by habit) and calling ourselves knowing God is inconsistent(I John 2 & 3), but also having confidence that IF we do sin(a true mistake, not habit), God will forgive us(I John 2) and that he has given us a set of principles to never fall(II Peter 1).

    The Word says that all HAVE sinned(essentially past tense) and come short of God's glory but also tells us that sanctification makes our sins(by habit) our past(I Corinthians 6). Jesus has said that whoever commits a sin is the servant of sin(John 8). Yet, many serious believers, ministers of the gospel, continue to say we ARE sinners.

    If we have known God for many years, know His word, pray, seek His guidance, and we aren't sinning less, accepting sin less, getting closer to Jesus' desire for perfection, then we aren't using all the tools the Bible has. For me, I'm nowhere near perfect but using Biblical principles, my messups are much less than 5-10 years ago and I want to be less sinful next year.

    I refuse to have a sin consciousness and sin humility that I am a sinner and I sincerely pray that there is less acceptance of this including the cavalier statement "we are all sinners so ..."
    do you sin? if yes then your a sinner saved by grace, period.
    Last edited by PoLemiCs; 03-24-2010 at 10:36 AM.
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    i heard someone say it like this

    "I'm not a sinner because I sin. I'm a sinner... therefore I do sin. Just because it barks doesn't make it a dog. It's a dog... therefore it barks"

    romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

    we're all sinners. but are we sinners BEING (active) sanctified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoLemiCs View Post
    do you sin? if yes then your a sinner saved by grace, period.
    Romans 6
    [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    I'd like to see Scripture that says Christians ARE sinners saved by grace. Not opinion or regurgitation of old church sayings. Scripture says that we shall NOT say we sin since we are under grace.

    At 1:45 PM today, do I sin? No. I have no plan to sin again. I'm watchful about temptation and can go for awhile without sinning. I use II Peter 1 principles to sin less as I get older and am seeking perfection that Jesus said I should seek.

    Have I sinned before? Yes and I thank God that he cleansed me from that unrighteousness.

    You can call yourself a sinner. I won't. This theology of Christians calling themselves sinner is unBiblical and harmful as they know the wages of sin is death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by btate0121 View Post
    i heard someone say it like this

    "I'm not a sinner because I sin. I'm a sinner... therefore I do sin. Just because it barks doesn't make it a dog. It's a dog... therefore it barks"

    romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

    we're all sinners. but are we sinners BEING (active) sanctified.
    The Bible says in I Corinthians 6, written by Paul to the church at Corinth, when mentioning that some WERE sinners but NOW ye are sanctified.

    I Corinthians 6
    [9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Where does the Bible say that believers ARE sinners. Evil is present with us. Our flesh with lust is tempted to sin. That doesn't mean we sin.

    The Bible says that people who sin(present tense) are liars if they say they love God. This is one fundamental why the body of Christ struggles with the result of sin that many, including heresy hunters and professional theologians who call out others wherever they can, call themselves sinners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ras View Post
    sin like the word love has a bunch of different meanings in the Bible. No believer can live a loving embrace lifestyle of sin. I John makes that pretty clear. But can believers miss the mark and fall short. Sure. I think that's more of what they mean. We all going to miss the mark because we still have old nature.

    As far as sinned, (past tense). A person on the other side can easy go to other scriptures that show that Paul called himself the chief of sinners. I John talks about if we sin we have an advocate with the Father (Jesus). So this can just go in circles with the proof text debates.
    If you believe the Word in II Peter 1, you do not HAVE to miss the mark. God has told us we CAN never fall. It is hard but is possible. Paul WAS the chief of sinners.

    This isn't prooftext debate. There is not Scripture that supports a Christian calling themselvves present tense sinners and plenty of Scripture of a Christian being told that present tense sinning is not of God. Life and death are in the power of the tongue and people have fooled themselves with a false humility to say, hey don't trip on that unbeliever for his mess, we are sinners just like him. Hey don't trip cause that pastor, rapper, singer fell because of sin, we ARE all sinners.

    The cycle continues. I'll take less sin and less of the wages of sin and lose the false sin humility. It is ironic that so many in HHH who find fault so easily in whoever else for whatever reason would miss something this fundamental, basic, and Scriptura.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aficianado_jc View Post
    If you believe the Word in II Peter 1, you do not HAVE to miss the mark. God has told us we CAN never fall. It is hard but is possible. Paul WAS the chief of sinners.

    This isn't prooftext debate. There is not Scripture that supports a Christian calling themselvves present tense sinners and plenty of Scripture of a Christian being told that present tense sinning is not of God. Life and death are in the power of the tongue and people have fooled themselves with a false humility to say, hey don't trip on that unbeliever for his mess, we are sinners just like him. Hey don't trip cause that pastor, rapper, singer fell because of sin, we ARE all sinners.

    The cycle continues. I'll take less sin and less of the wages of sin and lose the false sin humility. It is ironic that so many in HHH who find fault so easily in whoever else for whatever reason would miss something this fundamental, basic, and Scriptura.
    I Tim. 1:15 “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” Isn't that a scripture where a believer called himself a sinner?

    As far as your last paragraph. I think they have a different view of the effects of sin. The depth of how it effects a person. Probably because of Pollen Posse theology/ view of Total Depravity. In that view, perfection will not come in this life. You obviously have a different view toward the effects of sin.
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    Bro... have you forgotten about our little thread?



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    Quote Originally Posted by aficianado_jc View Post
    Romans 6
    [14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    I'd like to see Scripture that says Christians ARE sinners saved by grace. Not opinion or regurgitation of old church sayings. Scripture says that we shall NOT say we sin since we are under grace.

    At 1:45 PM today, do I sin? No. I have no plan to sin again. I'm watchful about temptation and can go for awhile without sinning. I use II Peter 1 principles to sin less as I get older and am seeking perfection that Jesus said I should seek.

    Have I sinned before? Yes and I thank God that he cleansed me from that unrighteousness.

    You can call yourself a sinner. I won't. This theology of Christians calling themselves sinner is unBiblical and harmful as they know the wages of sin is death.
    Well, I can't argue with a perfect sinless guy sooo....I guess you answered your own question.
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    also bro, I would like to challenge you on your def. of sin. Because many Christians just think of it as bad stuff. But it's also not doing good (Roms. 3). Are you vervally witnessing, discipling, feeding the poor, clothing the naked in a way that pleasing God? If not, then a lack of good is sin as well. That's part of loving God, loving others. Anything that falls short is sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aficianado_jc View Post
    Paul WAS the chief of sinners.
    Incorrect on the text.

    Paul uses eimi in it's present, active form (I am). Paul, speaking at that moment, presently was a sinner (same dude who wrote the NT). He spoke in the present tense (activity going on at that moment), active voice (he was the speaker).

    Draw your theology out of what the bible says and means, not what you want it to mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCalvinist View Post
    Incorrect on the text.

    Paul uses eimi in it's present, active form (I am). Paul, speaking at that moment, presently was a sinner (same dude who wrote the NT). He spoke in the present tense (activity going on at that moment), active voice (he was the speaker).

    Draw your theology out of what the bible says and means, not what you want it to mean.
    Yes sir!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aficianado_jc View Post
    In the midst of some of the stuff going on in the HHH community, in recommendations on how to minister to people, it is common(as I've seen it in interviews, bulletin boards, social media, etc.) for leaders in HHH to say, "we are all sinners so ..... and we need God's grace ...."

    Many in this community are very theological and try to hold a high standard on "truth", yet so cavalierly in my opinion people will say "we are all sinners so .....".

    Why is that? Why in this community where there are many who are almost professional fault finders does such a mentality go without edification?

    In my opinion, to tell a believer they are a sinner and not teach the biblical standard for seeking righteousness is a stumbling block for people to not have the wages of sin in their life.

    Not to be legalistic and be perfect or be depressed but SEEKing to be perfect(Matt 5:48), knowing that BEing a sinner(by habit) and calling ourselves knowing God is inconsistent(I John 2 & 3), but also having confidence that IF we do sin(a true mistake, not habit), God will forgive us(I John 2) and that he has given us a set of principles to never fall(II Peter 1).

    The Word says that all HAVE sinned(essentially past tense) and come short of God's glory but also tells us that sanctification makes our sins(by habit) our past(I Corinthians 6). Jesus has said that whoever commits a sin is the servant of sin(John 8). Yet, many serious believers, ministers of the gospel, continue to say we ARE sinners.

    If we have known God for many years, know His word, pray, seek His guidance, and we aren't sinning less, accepting sin less, getting closer to Jesus' desire for perfection, then we aren't using all the tools the Bible has. For me, I'm nowhere near perfect but using Biblical principles, my messups are much less than 5-10 years ago and I want to be less sinful next year.

    I refuse to have a sin consciousness and sin humility that I am a sinner and I sincerely pray that there is less acceptance of this including the cavalier statement "we are all sinners so ..."
    Amen. If you identify yourself as a sinner, you will continue in sin,

    If you choose to identify yourself as "saved by grace" or "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus", you will sin less and less.

    Bro, I know person after person who identifies more with their sin nature than they do the Holy Spirit and they live like it. They only way you can tell some know anything about the Bible is when they start breaking their theological stance to you.

    Your post was very edifying and encouraging to me. Thanks for posting this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    Amen. If you identify yourself as a sinner, you will continue in sin,

    If you choose to identify yourself as "saved by grace" or "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus", you will sin less and less.

    Bro, I know person after person who identifies more with their sin nature than they do the Holy Spirit and they live like it. They only way you can tell some know anything about the Bible is when they start breaking their theological stance to you.

    Your post was very edifying and encouraging to me. Thanks for posting this.
    really Rob? lol
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    If you choose to identify yourself as "saved by grace" or "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus", you will sin less and less.

    Bro, I know person after person who identifies more with their sin nature than they do the Holy Spirit and they live like it. They only way you can tell some know anything about the Bible is when they start breaking their theological stance to you.

    Your post was very edifying and encouraging to me. Thanks for posting this.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    Rob , bruh i don't see the connection you're making. How will you continue to sin if you identify yourself as a sinner. In other words where is that type of thought in the scriptures. On the contrary, we are sinners. If you aren't a sinner than how do you sin? I think I understand you to a certain extent. The first statement you made isn't complete. Christians aren't just sinners. We are sinners saved by grace. We were sinners but now we have a new nature. ( i think thats what you and afficianado are trying to communicate). You're right we shouldn't use the cliche " sinners saved by grace" under the guise of false humility. Anytime we cease to focus on the work of Christ at the cross and His ressurection it is error. Even if it is under the guise of " im a sinner". This is good dialogue though. I like yall's thoughts.

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    I think it's a balance between what's being said on both sides here. The Bible does talk about us being the righteousness of God IN Christ, but I don't believe it to be sinful to say that we're "sinners saved by Grace". I do however think that what we are, in Christ, in God's eyes gets overlooked quite often. We're called saints, priests, kings, etc, but because so many people(especially around here) came out of the WOF camp and have a strong disdain for anything ever said during that time, it's like we forget that those scriptures exist.

    Maybe that's what aficianado is trying to say, but I can't be sure of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    Amen. If you identify yourself as a sinner, you will continue in sin,

    If you choose to identify yourself as "saved by grace" or "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus", you will sin less and less.

    Bro, I know person after person who identifies more with their sin nature than they do the Holy Spirit and they live like it. They only way you can tell some know anything about the Bible is when they start breaking their theological stance to you.

    Your post was very edifying and encouraging to me. Thanks for posting this.
    I haven't posted here in FOREVER... but I had to respond... as a matter of fact, the people who seem to say that they are not sinners, nor acknowledge their sin nature are the MOST apt to sin... why? Because not acknowledging your weakness ALWAYS leads to pride..... and that is.... you guessed it... SIN...

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    i see where dude is going, but even at the end of your post you say, "For me, I'm nowhere near perfect but using Biblical principles, my messups are much less than 5-10 years ago and I want to be less sinful next year." so in other words you sin less, but not sinless. those messups are sins, period. and why can't we be perfect? because we are sinful creatures. some are sinners saved by grace and others are sinners condemned. remember when God sees a christian He sees the blood of Christ covering our sins, as that parallels to the hebrews putting blood on their door posts. i don't feel it's a cop out or false humility, it's who we are. even Jesus told Peter when He washed Peter's feet, that even though he is "clean" he will get dirty in this life. so Christ's washing of Peter's feet symbolized how we can go to Christ and be forgiven of our sins. as Timothy Brindle's album said we need to be Killing Sin daily. cause temptations don't stop after we get saved and sanctification takes our entire life span on earth. as Paul said we need to stay up on our doctrine AND life. peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoLemiCs View Post
    really Rob? lol
    Really. I know many people like that.
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