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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post
    For the record, here is what Jay-Z meant with those two lines... It's not as deep as some are trying to make it. After this, I've said my piece for this thread.

    Original lyrics:

    Hail Mary to the city you're a virgin
    And Jesus can't save you
    Life begins where the church ends


    Plain English version:



    Let there be no confusion.

    Peace.

    So we'll are back, 180, to the crux (no pun intended) to what I have been saying and that is that it boils down to interpretation. I disagree with your interpretation. Here's my breakdown again

    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    Hearing the song again, Christians should actually applaud his observations, good observations I must say.

    Here is my interpretation.

    "Lights is blinding,
    girls need blinders
    so they can step out of bounds quick,
    the side lines is blind with casualties,
    who sip the lite casually, then gradually become worse,
    donít bite the apple Eve,...
    "

    Here he is saying that the city of NY can be deceptive so basically, many women come to the city with dreams but end up as casualties therefore : DON"T BITE THE APPLE EVE.." ( I think we as Christians can agree with that and please don't make light of the apple issue LoL).

    Why shouldn't women bite the apple, which btw is a nice wordplay on New York City being known as The BIG APPLE, why? He says why in the next stanzas...


    "caught up in the in crowd,
    now you're in-style,
    and in the winter gets cold en vogue with your skin out,
    the city of sin is a pity on a whim.
    good girls gone bad, the city's filled with them,
    Mommy took a bus trip and now she got her bust out,
    everybody ride her, just like a bus route,"


    That's why.

    Now what does Jay-Z means with the next words?



    "Hail Mary to the city your a Virgin,
    and Jesus canít save you life starts when the church ends,"



    Jay-Z is still playing on words as a good poet and literary writer would do. His message? Ladies, don't be deceived ( bite the apple " New York") because you can turn into a trick and end up serving the ill city life of NYC. Is Jay-Z making a doctrinal statement when he says, "and Jesus canít save you, life starts when the church ends?" No, nor is he actually saying that Jesus can't save. He is comparing the world described in the beginning of the verse, you know, the big apple " NY" that he warns women from biting into, that one, with the seemingly weaker world of going to Church once a week, therefore " your life starts when the Church ends." And as a Christian committed to sound doctrine, the Church of Christ, etc, I have to say Bravo because Jay-Z is on point with what he is communicating there.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    Let's look at the verse again...

    "Lights is blinding,
    girls need blinders
    "

    Why do the girls need blinders Rob? Because the New York City Lights are blinding and, as Jay-Z puts it, "so they can step out of bounds quick."

    Why do the ladies need to "step out of bounds quick?"

    because

    "the side lines is blind with casualties,
    who sip the lite ( beer) casually, then gradually become worse"
    ( parenthesis is mines).

    That's why!

    Sounds like a warning to me...He says that the New York City lights are blinding and therefore girls need blinders ( Blinders prevent light from coming in) so that they can step out of bounds quick because in the sidelines there are casualties who sip beer casually but gradually this thing becomes worst. If Jay-Z is not warning females from the deceptive aspects of NY, then he is doing a bad job. Then to top it off he says, "donít bite the apple Eve." New York is a known as the Big Apple, he says, "donít bite the apple Eve." Sounds like a clear warning to me.




    Is my interpretation correct or not correct?
    Soooo?

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    read THIS you ad hominem user you.
    yeah yeah yeah....
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    So we'll are back, 180, to the crux (no pun intended) to what I have been saying and that is that it boils down to interpretation. I disagree with your interpretation. Here's my breakdown again



    and



    Soooo?
    Aye dios mio!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigducky99 View Post
    The saddest thing about all this ROB is that you are going to come away with this as if you achieved some sort of victory, its something that I have seen all too much, so let me clear some things up for that you apparently haven't notice over the last 13 pages:

    1. There was no need to "open my eyes" to anything because they were not closed in the first place. I truly don't understand how you have not gotten it in your head that I never said I agreed with the song, Jay-Z, or even Cruz's interpretation, the only thing I said (for the umpteenth time) is that I applauded Cruz's ability to dissect the song the way he did that's all.

    2. I'm utterly appalled at the statements that were made by or agreed upon by you ROB, and even more appalled that you never showed evidence of your accusations. Where did Cruz mix Philosophy with Scriptures? Where did he sound like a Mystic? Where did he sound like he was in fellowship with darkness? What proof do you have of him partially submitting to scriptures? What's even worse is that people on here never even called you on it (probably because it was Cruz).

    3. The scriptures you bought up about being led by the spirit as opposed to the flesh were out of place because they were based your assumption that just because Cruz disagreed with you then he must be walking in the flesh. As a matter of fact the ones you posted had more to do with Cruz disagreeing with you than the actually song.

    4. You claim to be led by the Spirit huh? Ok well lest test that according to Biblical standards of what it means to be lead by the spirit shall we? According to Galatians 5:19-23 the Fruits of the Spirit are as follows:

    love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

    Love (your probably going to claim that you did it all out of love but it was def. well hid)
    Joy (you seem to take joy in supposedly "opening my eyes" when in fact that joy is based on false premises)
    Peace ( False accusations without evidence did anything to contribute peace to this)
    Patience (does it even need to be said?)
    Kindness (does it even need to be said?)
    Goodness (does it even need to be said?)
    Faithfulness (I'll give you credit your faithful in your false accusations)
    Gentleness and Self-Control (HIGHLY arguable)

    So you claim to be led by the Spirit by I have a hard time recognizing its fruit from you in the this thread man. And like I said you will probably get a pass on all of this because you supposedly were speaking truth.

    Great post and thank you for being my tongue because so many times I bite it hoping that others will sling their tongue for me and call out such nasty venomous filth being directed at me all because I gave an interpretation that he disagreed with. That is why I went toe to toe with him applying pressure for him to be responsible for what he says and back up what he accuses me of rather than allowing it to row off his tongue via the keyboard. I also do it so that others can clearly see his blunder with the hopes that he may be called out so I won't have to lash out. But it saddens me that cats allowed his venomous words to spit out of his mind without saying enough is enough with the foolishness. Thanks bro, I guess you stood in place for eternal because usually it is him who comes to my defense when the personal attacks start rolling in and rightly so, he endures much abuse from people who refuse to even call him a brother. I'm sickened by it!!! Really, it hurts me and the body of Christ to see genuine faithful brothers and sisters being condemned by so called adherence to the doctrines of grace! Really!

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    HCR Ole' Head PoLemiCs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    Great post and thank you for being my tongue because so many times I bite it hoping that others will sling their tongue for me and call out such nasty venomous filth being directed at me all because I gave an interpretation that he disagreed with. That is why I went toe to toe with him applying pressure for him to be responsible for what he says and back up what he accuses me of rather than allowing it to row off his tongue via the keyboard. I also do it so that others can clearly see his blunder with the hopes that he may be called out so I won't have to lash out. But it saddens me that cats allowed his venomous words to spit out of his mind without saying enough is enough with the foolishness. Thanks bro, I guess you stood in place for eternal because usually it is him who comes to my defense when the personal attacks start rolling in and rightly so, he endures much abuse from people who refuse to even call him a brother. I'm sickened by it!!! Really, it hurts me and the body of Christ to see genuine faithful brothers and sisters being condemned by so called adherence to the doctrines of grace! Really!
    blah blah blah.....sheeesh give it a rest mannnn
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoLemiCs View Post
    blah blah blah.....sheeesh give it a rest mannnn
    I will never give that a rest sorry, why not tell people to give their ad hominem attacks a rest? I doubt it will ever stop and so don't expect me to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zee View Post
    For the record, here is what Jay-Z meant with those two lines... It's not as deep as some are trying to make it. After this, I've said my piece for this thread.

    Original lyrics:

    Mommy took a bus trip, now she got her bust out
    Everybody ride her just like a bust roughte
    Hail Mary to the city, you're a virgin
    And Jesus can't save you
    Life begins where the church ends


    Plain English version:

    Let there be no confusion.

    Peace.
    Thou Words Are Full Of Wisdom!!!!!! In plain English "Right On"
    God Glorifying Hip Hop @ http://christcentric.net/

    To live is Christ and to die is gain!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    I will never give that a rest sorry, why not tell people to give their ad hominem attacks a rest? I doubt it will ever stop and so don't expect me to stop.
    I know...I don't expect you to stop.....your misunderstanding Zee on purpose to keep a discussion going and so you can appear to be right....sad
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    HCR Veterano ROB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoLemiCs View Post
    I respect your opinion and understand you don't want Rob to think you were swayed by his personal posts directed to you....but at the same time Zee pretty much said the same thing Rob did but in much more informative and graceful tone lol....not that Rob is not graceful or anything I just sympathize with Rob when I get fustrated with Christian cats who vigorously come to the defense of wack blaspheming Mc's.....Rob obviously loves his Christian brothers and sisters to the point where he would take the time to (in his opinion) correct our errors and want to see us grow more in Christ and holiness....and for that I applaude Rob, now if his tactics were a little strong then I can see that but Rob nonetheless did point these things out too but noone was listening to him due to the opinion that he was being too upfront and confrontational with cats and again I understand that too cuz he does that with me also LOL.....but its all good cuz Rob is a Great dude
    Thanks bro.

    You actually judged my heart correctly on this issue.

    I'll admit I'm not the most politically correct dude sometimes, but I'm really working on communicating what I see in a different manner.

    I still say when people don't acknowledge or see the spiritual side of things and say they are Christians I have a hard time understanding them.

    Anyways, my motivation is not hatred and I know there are some folks who aren't gonna like me because of the way I say things sometime. If we're meant to be friends they'll get over of it because I'm sure they'll see my heart one day. If not, it is what it is.

    I'll never be able to please everyone.
    Forward - March! Eyes - Rise!

    To the Battlefield - He who wins souls is wise!

    Del A Ray

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  12. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    Thanks bro.

    You actually judged my heart correctly on this issue.

    I'll admit I'm not the most politically correct dude sometimes, but I'm really working on communicating what I see in a different manner.

    I still say when people don't acknowledge or see the spiritual side of things and say they are Christians I have a hard time understanding them.

    Anyways, my motivation is not hatred and I know there are some folks who aren't gonna like me because of the way I say things sometime. If we're meant to be friends they'll get over of it because I'm sure they'll see my heart one day. If not, it is what it is.

    I'll never be able to please everyone.
    How about apologizing to the board owners and to me for the error you committed in prejudging me, questioning my spirituality, asserting that my allegiance is not with scripture, that I sound like a mystic, that I'm blind, that I fellowship with darkness and apologize to all who agreed with my interpretation for accusing them of being spiritually immature or worst, blind?

    This is what you have been saying Rob, all because you disagree with my interpretation. Start with admitting that you are wrong about me.
    Last edited by CCordero; 10-11-2009 at 07:14 PM.

  13. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    How about apologizing to the board owners and to me for the error you committed in prejudging me, questioning my spirituality, asserting that my allegiance is not with scripture, that I sound like a mystic, that I'm blind, that I fellowship with darkness and apologize to all who agreed with my interpretation for accusing them of being spiritually immature or worst, blind?

    This is what you have been saying Rob, all because you disagree with my interpretation. Start with admitting that you are wrong about me.
    And howbout you deal with this...............


    Bro, 90% percent of the people who are going to hear "Hail Mary" "Virgin" "Jesus Can't save you" "life begins when church ends" are going to hear JUST THAT......and the Christian haters are going to applaude Jay Z for ONCE AGAIN mocking the Church and Her teachings and say "Yeah to Jay Z for mocking these dumb stupid Christians YEAHHHHHHH".

    You actually think that the average listener (which is most) are going to disect these MC's verses and interpret them as you?? really? LOL.......

    The bottom line is folks are going to come away with a negative understanding of their lyrics which discredits the Church and blasphemes God no matter how much a more seasoned MC like yourself will know how to intepret very scholarly their lyrics.....is someone going to interpret the lyrics correctly everytime and everywhere for everyone? I think Not.....and thats the bottom line....

    Jay Z is a puppet and agent of Satan with the rest of these blaspheming Mc's like Rakim and these Muslim rappers and cats like Necro, Jedi Mind Tricks etc.....

    So ALL your sugar coating of the lyrics and attempt at softening the blow of the lyrics with your very well thought out ( i may add) interpretation will not negate the fact that folks will be decieved by these lyrics and that these lyrics as Zee and Rob has very well established are in the tone of the spirit of anti-christ as is any music that goes against or wants to take the place of CHrist, PERIOD..........
    You claim his lyrics ARE NOT anti-christian and thats what you have been dodging sir, from Rob to Zee and myself....I hope others see the truth in this also
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigducky99 View Post
    The saddest thing about all this ROB is that you are going to come away with this as if you achieved some sort of victory, its something that I have seen all too much, so let me clear some things up for that you apparently haven't notice over the last 13 pages:

    1. There was no need to "open my eyes" to anything because they were not closed in the first place. I truly don't understand how you have not gotten it in your head that I never said I agreed with the song, Jay-Z, or even Cruz's interpretation, the only thing I said (for the umpteenth time) is that I applauded Cruz's ability to dissect the song the way he did that's all.

    2. I'm utterly appalled at the statements that were made by or agreed upon by you ROB, and even more appalled that you never showed evidence of your accusations. Where did Cruz mix Philosophy with Scriptures? Where did he sound like a Mystic? Where did he sound like he was in fellowship with darkness? What proof do you have of him partially submitting to scriptures? What's even worse is that people on here never even called you on it (probably because it was Cruz).

    3. The scriptures you bought up about being led by the spirit as opposed to the flesh were out of place because they were based your assumption that just because Cruz disagreed with you then he must be walking in the flesh. As a matter of fact the ones you posted had more to do with Cruz disagreeing with you than the actually song.

    4. You claim to be led by the Spirit huh? Ok well lest test that according to Biblical standards of what it means to be lead by the spirit shall we? According to Galatians 5:19-23 the Fruits of the Spirit are as follows:

    love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

    Love (your probably going to claim that you did it all out of love but it was def. well hid)
    Joy (you seem to take joy in supposedly "opening my eyes" when in fact that joy is based on false premises)
    Peace ( False accusations without evidence did anything to contribute peace to this)
    Patience (does it even need to be said?)
    Kindness (does it even need to be said?)
    Goodness (does it even need to be said?)
    Faithfulness (I'll give you credit your faithful in your false accusations)
    Gentleness and Self-Control (HIGHLY arguable)

    So you claim to be led by the Spirit by I have a hard time recognizing its fruit from you in the this thread man. And like I said you will probably get a pass on all of this because you supposedly were speaking truth.
    I thought you were done with this thread?

    Anyways, you never acknowledged the negative spiritual implications of the song until Zee shared what he shared. You were big upping Cruz's interpreting of Jay Z's song even though he still refuses to admit what the song really says.

    I was very bold with the truth I shared and I don't apologize for that, but I do apologize for offending you. If you ever admitted that the song had a negative spiritual implication anywhere before Zee started posting, please show me where you stated that and I will apologize for misjudging your statements.

    I don't know what else to say. I did my best to make my points and I posted scripture to back up why I said what I said. I will ask a few of my personal friends to read these posts and tell me whether or not they believe I was operating outside of the fruit of the Spirit. Being strong and bold for the truth of God's Word is not a sin.

    Proverbs 28:1

    The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.

    My goal was not to win a victory, it was to rally us to get us bold about defending the truth in our own repscetive communities. Jay Z is attacking the name of the Lord we hold so dear, and usually when people of like minds and faith realize that someone is doing that, it can get them stirred up in a good way to be more active in sharing the Gospel.

    As for Cruz, I stated why he came across as mystic to Doulos, I didn't say he was "mystic".

    You guys!

    Love ya, even if you don't believe it.
    Last edited by ROB; 10-11-2009 at 07:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCordero View Post
    How about apologizing to the board owners and to me for the error you committed in prejudging me, questioning my spirituality, asserting that my allegiance is not with scripture, that I sound like a mystic, that I'm blind, that I fellowship with darkness and apologize to all who agreed with my interpretation for accusing them of being spiritually immature or worst, blind?

    This is what you have been saying Rob, all because you disagree with my interpretation. Start with admitting that you are wrong about me.
    I'm not gonna apologize for questioning your spirituality, Cruz. No one on this board should consider themselves beyond that, including myself. That sounds like pride talking there. I will apologize for you taking offense to my statements. Do you see what I see? Do you see what Zee sees? He explained it differently, but the same Spirit led him to the same conclusion I came to. If not, then how can I apologize for saying that you don't see when you still don't see?

    My reference to the Eph 5:11 scripture was not to say that you fellowship with darkness, it was to say that you weren't reproving or exposing the deeds of darkness like the scriptures says we're supposed to, you were trying to interpret them. The scripture says expose them, not poetically interpret or critique them. You still don't see my point?

    You see Cruz, you haven't even interpreted my intentions accurately, but you think you have Jay Z interpreted correctly.

    I questioned you in love, Cruz, not in hatred at all. Please believe me, Cruz. I care about your spiritual state and it concerns me and grieves me when people who say they serve Jesus can't walk in 1 Cor 1:10 and don't care to ask the Holy Spirit to help them get there.

    1 Cor 1:10

    10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    Last edited by ROB; 10-11-2009 at 08:10 PM.
    Forward - March! Eyes - Rise!

    To the Battlefield - He who wins souls is wise!

    Del A Ray

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  19. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB View Post
    I thought you were done with this thread?

    Anyways, you never acknowledged the negative spiritual implications of the song until Zee shared what he shared. You were big upping Cruz's interpreting of Jay Z's song even though he still refuses to admit what the song really says.

    I was very bold with the truth I shared and I don't apologize for that, but I do apologize for offending you. If you ever admitted that the song had a negative spiritual implication anywhere before Zee started posting, please show me where you stated that and I will apologize for misjudging your statements.

    I don't know what else to say. I did my best to make my points and I posted scripture to back up why I said what I said. I will ask a few of my personal friends to read these posts and tell me whether or not they believe I was operating outside of the fruit of the Spirit. Being strong and bold for the truth of God's Word is not a sin.

    Proverbs 28:1

    The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.

    My goal was not to win a victory, it was to rally us to get us bold about defending the truth in our own repscetive communities. Jay Z is attacking the name of the Lord we hold so dear, and usually when people of like minds and faith realize that someone is doing that, it can get them stirred up in a good way to be more active in sharing the Gospel.

    As for Cruz, I stated why he came across as mystic to Doulos, I didn't say he was "mystic".

    You guys!

    Love ya, if you don't believe it.
    Your asking me to go back and see where I agreed with the negative spiritual implications, but I ask you can you find me a place where I said I agreed with Cruz's interpretation? (Which is something you accused me of) No you won't find it all you'll find is me saying "hey I never seen someone dissect lyrics that way" For the umpteenth +1 time, all I said was that it was cool of Cruz to dissect the song like he did.

    You take pride in claiming spiritual truth but yet fail to see the lie. What lies? you still haven't proven that Cruz's mixed philosophy with scriptures, you still have not given concrete evidence that he holds philosophy above scripture. You haven't given evidence to suggest he has a greater allegiance to Jay-Z, You haven't given any evidence to prove that anyone that agreed that he made a valid intepretation is any less spiritually mature than you are? But I forgot all of this was done out of love .

    In all honestly can you go down the list of the Fruits of the Spirits and see if you have adequately displayed them?


    btw I am through with the song, I've already said my peace about it.
    Funny how the exceeding riches of God's grace seem to run out the moment we're saved. From then on, we tend to base our relationship with Him on our performance rather than on His grace -Jerry Bridges

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    Everyone,

    I don't think it's our responsibility to question someone's commitment to our LORD based off a few messages on a Christian Hip Hop discussion forum.

    Please, let's just have a discussion without all the speculation and incessant namecalling.

    Reserve personal comments like that to PM. Otherwise, if you don't have anything of value to add to the discussion refrain from posting it.

    If you have any questions, please PM me personally.

    Thanks,

    milton
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