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  1. #21
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    the greek word translated "wine" in the NT can refer to fermented or unfermented grape juice. the context is what distinguishes or suggests one over the other. so whenever the bible speaks of Jesus turning water into wine, that doesn't mean that Jesus turned water into alcoholic drink.

    So then maybe he did, or maybe he didn't...considering the context, there is a bigger chance that he probably did being that it was a wedding celebration, no?

  2. #22
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking View Post
    Hey, neb and I agree on something.
    hey, see there. Beer has brought unity between two brothers. lol.

    Actually, i'm half-way serious with that, because if we are going to forget what the Bible says and make empirical arguments, than here is one of HUNDREDS of empirical evidences where beer brought about something good.

    Yet, why is that that those who argue empirically would not accept this as an argument? The irony.

    Again, bottom line - Scripture allows alcohol assumption. Now, we can either rest in His wisdom or our own.

  3. #23
    Super Moderator phil's Avatar
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    i drink wine and beer

    i drink moderately and i am not a drunk

    do i drink in front of alcoholics? no

    i dont eat cake in front of gluttons either

    Jesus drank. scripture doesnt ever warn against drinking, it warns against drinking to much... just like eating to much junk food

    Wine is not much different then it was in scripture

    now, distilled alcohole is different... i will have a mixed drink every once in a while.... but you gotta be careful with that stuff

  4. #24
    Super Moderator phil's Avatar
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    the "culture" argument always cracks me up

    we got much more gluttons in our culture then drunks

    if you wanna be "wise" in our culture, cut McDs, cake .... ect

    in scripture, they had drunks as well

    be sensative to those who are watching, no doubt

    but dont make up laws that arent there

  5. #25
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    So then maybe he did, or maybe he didn't...considering the context, there is a bigger chance that he probably did being that it was a wedding celebration, no?
    given all the scriptures against drunkeness, i would conclude otherwise. if we assume that the guests were already well drunken by the time they ran out of wine, then Jesus turning water into even more alcohol would cause Jesus to support drunkeness, which we know isn't true.

    besides, we didn't have any alcohol at our wedding and we enjoyed ourself and had a good time. we made toasts with sparkling grape juice

  6. #26
    Super Moderator phil's Avatar
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    drunkeness in your interpretation, or the actual meaning of the word

    my boss might get buzzed every few years at a wedding, but he is hardly thought of as a "drunkard"

    i think you are reading the bible with a 21 century southern baptist mindset

    not a 1 century hebrew mindset

    for instance, the critics called jesus a "drunkard" <<---probably not cause of grape juicy juice

    nazarites, specifically didnt drink wine or shave (as opposed to the norm)
    Last edited by phil; 06-22-2007 at 02:06 PM.

  7. #27
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctide View Post
    drunkeness in your interpretation, or the actual meaning of the word
    neither, i was just building off what cowboy said.

  8. #28
    Super Moderator phil's Avatar
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    no doubt famo!

    and if you dont drink, thats awesome

    but keep in mind, feasting and drinking at a celebration is not what defines a glutton and drunkard

    na mean?

  9. #29
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    given all the scriptures against drunkeness, i would conclude otherwise. if we assume that the guests were already well drunken by the time they ran out of wine, then Jesus turning water into even more alcohol would cause Jesus to support drunkeness, which we know isn't true.

    besides, we didn't have any alcohol at our wedding and we enjoyed ourself and had a good time. we made toasts with sparkling grape juice
    Got it. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself at your wedding.

    If you don't drink, cool. Your decision. Drinking is certainly not a regular part of my lifestyle either. The point remains that drinking alcohol is not prohibited by scripture. I'm with C-Tide on this one on the point that we shouldn't add laws that aren't there.
    Last edited by Gloria; 06-22-2007 at 02:19 PM. Reason: to avoid strife...LOL

  10. #30
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    “Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object that is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky?” — Martin Luther

  11. #31
    HCR Veterano sonshine's Avatar
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    its not the alcohal consumption thats bad its the Drunkedness thats bad. a glass of wine is cool if youre of age. or even a beer(i wouldnt when i get 21) its just people's personal Convictions on the subject
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  12. #32
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    the greek word translated "wine" in the NT can refer to fermented or unfermented grape juice. the context is what distinguishes or suggests one over the other. so whenever the bible speaks of Jesus turning water into wine, that doesn't mean that Jesus turned water into alcoholic drink.
    Can you prove this?

  13. #33
    Super Moderator phil's Avatar
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    na, but we should take his word for it over the 1000s of translators over the years

    :eeK:

  14. #34
    HCR Familia son of man's Avatar
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    a couple of weeks ago one of my best friends came to town with his cousin. i picked them up and brought them back to my crib. they had been and were still drinking. whenever my boy's cousin found out i was saved and a minister he started getting convicted. i didn't say anything about drinking. but the conviction of the Holy Spirit was strong in there. i could feel him pulling on me for a word. come to find out he was a christian who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit but was backslidden.

    long story short, i was able to minister to him, encourage him in the Lord and pray for him. he was able to see someone who had been there and done that but is now set free from alcohol in the name of Jesus! now if i had been drinking with them (even socially) i wouldn't have had that same witness. the spirit of conviction would have been replaced by a spirit of acceptance and endorsement.

  15. #35
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyMe View Post
    Shouldn't Christians avoid this apperance of evil? Even if it is consumed in moderation, there is definately an apperance of evil if somebody has alcohol in their hand and the bible is clear that Christians should avoid the apperance of evil.
    So when you read of Christ drinking wine(he was called a winebibber), or Jesus turning water into wine for the guests(encouraging them), or Yahweh giving Israel alcohol(wine and strong drink) as a blessing, that this could be seen as evil? Would you have run up to Jesus and told him to put that wine down because it had the appearance of evil?


    As for the OP, I enjoy fine glasses of wine. I enjoy a ice cold beer(Killians or Sam Adams), and occasionally something stronger(mostly vodka).

  16. #36
    HCR Veterano clayfilms's Avatar
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    below is a link to a dope sermon on the "water into wine" miracle

    http://sgcitychurch.org/pages/index.php?pID=495

    click the link and scroll down to:

    2/25/2007 Toby Kurth "Lord and Servant" John 2:1-11 MP3

  17. #37
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Here's a thread that should help.

    http://holycultureradio.com/forum/sh...highlight=Beer

  18. #38
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    a couple of weeks ago one of my best friends came to town with his cousin. i picked them up and brought them back to my crib. they had been and were still drinking. whenever my boy's cousin found out i was saved and a minister he started getting convicted. i didn't say anything about drinking. but the conviction of the Holy Spirit was strong in there. i could feel him pulling on me for a word. come to find out he was a christian who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit but was backslidden.

    long story short, i was able to minister to him, encourage him in the Lord and pray for him. he was able to see someone who had been there and done that but is now set free from alcohol in the name of Jesus! now if i had been drinking with them (even socially) i wouldn't have had that same witness. the spirit of conviction would have been replaced by a spirit of acceptance and endorsement.
    Biblically, you did the right thing by not drinking in front of them. I agree that it would have harmed your witness greatly. I don't think anyone has endorsed drinking in the company of unbelievers or struggling Christians.

  19. #39
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by son of man View Post
    a couple of weeks ago one of my best friends came to town with his cousin. i picked them up and brought them back to my crib. they had been and were still drinking. whenever my boy's cousin found out i was saved and a minister he started getting convicted. i didn't say anything about drinking. but the conviction of the Holy Spirit was strong in there. i could feel him pulling on me for a word. come to find out he was a christian who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit but was backslidden.
    son of man,

    this is an empiricial argument and thus a weak one. here's why: for every experience you give, i can counter it with 10 experiences of how drinking alcohol with someone produced good.

    One example: my father-in-law

    My father-in-law supposedly "accepted Christ" after being visited by an evangelism team from my old southern baptist church. the first thing they told him he had to do in order to join the church was stop drinking beer and stop smoking. He asked why? They said, "those acts are sinful and these are the rules of our church." no bible. it didn't make sense to him.

    He left, and it left a sore spot between him and 'Church' ever since...it was hard to get him to talk about spiritual matters....until thanksgiving at my house around 5 years ago. We sat down for a meal, i prayed (much to the displeasure of my atheist mother-in-law) and immediately after the prayer, i walked over to him and handed him a Corona.

    it completely floored him and it ended up with us having a very good conversation about morality/ethics and the standard for such. It completely floored my atheist mother-in-law as well. She was the woman who once threatened me if i ever brought up the name of Jesus in front of her....she now asks about my speaking engagements and reads articles on my site and we have mature, calm, profitable discussion.

    One beer completely broke down some barriers we had - barriers caused by unbiblical laws. And i have heard TONS of these kinds of testimonies.

    So, where does that empirical argument get us now?

  20. #40
    HCR Familia Follow God, Not Man's Avatar
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    I don't drink beer, I find the taste disgusting

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