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  1. #241
    HCR Ole' Head Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stone View Post
    Neb,

    The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.

    Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?

    You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.

    If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.
    Just as you comparing crack to alcohol is also apples and oranges. Weed is illegal in the U.S. except in medical situations....which would make it just like the morphine or epidural that Neb mentioned. So, according to your argument itself, weed would be OK in it's legal form here in the states, because it's dealing with pain, just as morphine does. You're not presenting an overly strong case against this. We all understand why some people don't drink, and that's not a problem.

    Also, Japan, there are many wines and beers that people drink for the taste. Konig Ludwig is a beer that does not taste like most others, and is quite enjoyable(especially with German food). There are many wines/champagnes that have enjoyable tastes too. So, just because one person doesn't like the taste doesn't mean that others can't. That's like saying that people don't eat vegetables for the taste.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    Just as you comparing crack to alcohol is also apples and oranges. Weed is illegal in the U.S. except in medical situations....which would make it just like the morphine or epidural that Neb mentioned. So, according to your argument itself, weed would be OK in it's legal form here in the states, because it's dealing with pain, just as morphine does. You're not presenting an overly strong case against this. We all understand why some people don't drink, and that's not a problem.

    Also, Japan, there are many wines and beers that people drink for the taste. Konig Ludwig is a beer that does not taste like most others, and is quite enjoyable(especially with German food). There are many wines/champagnes that have enjoyable tastes too. So, just because one person doesn't like the taste doesn't mean that others can't. That's like saying that people don't eat vegetables for the taste.
    See my thread dealing w/ weed outside the US. Would you tell a Christian from the Netherlands to light one up? It's not apples and oranges (maybe from an American centric view point). In a handful of countries weed and liquor are legal. I'd like to see your view articulated within those contexts.Mine remains the same everywhere. Avoid things that impair your judgement.

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    Some have argued that we shouldn't use alcohol as a crutch. We should face up to the circumstances upon which God has sovereignly brought us. Some people take that a step further and argue for natural births.

    Why do you think it is ok in that situation but not for recreational purposes? Seems arbitrary to me.
    The Bible doesn't say it's wrong to ease pain in the medical sense. Paul's prescription to Timothy concnerning liquor for his stomach was pretty much in that same line. That's why i think it's ok for that situation. I think it's ok for a police to discharge a firearm in the situation where life is at risk. Doesn't mean i think it's ok for him to recreationally shoot someone. Similar result, different motive.

    No, but it does tend to relax me and sometimes relieves headaches. So do cigars.
    I'm sure the same argument could be made for a man paying for a prostitute, it wouldn't make it right. Make up your mind (I don't mean that rudly fam!), you're either doing it for recreation, or because you have a medical condition where liquor is the prescribed remedy.

    Dire need in what sense? It certainly is no life or death situation. And again, even if it were, some naturalists would argue that to die would merely be accepting the natural course of God's sovereign decrees
    Some naturalists? Some drunks would argue that to drink is merely obeying God's command for liquor consumption. I'm not inferring that you are a drunk, so don't infer that I'm a naturalist.

    Pain relieving medication is not any stranger to the Bible (neither is wine). In fact, wine could have been used in cases of extreme pain, to numb it. Similar side effects, different motive.

    Ok. Back to the question. Do you believe recreational drinking is wrong? If so, why. If not, and you make a parallel to marijuana, then why would you argue that marijuana is wrong?
    I'll let you re-read all of my posts where I made that answer clear.

    Now as far as why I would argue that weed is wrong:

    1) It's a judgement altering drug
    2) it's highly addictive and distractive
    3) it's a great way to bomb your witness

    Do you like the taste of wine or the buzz that you get? just curious

  4. #244
    HCR Veterano ZestD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japan View Post
    I agree Stone

    Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.
    Ignorant and broad blanket statement there.

    I enjoy the taste of a good beer...NOT some cheap American light beer that doesn't hardly have a taste. Wine, well I only like a couple, but that's just b/c I don't particularly like wine.
    "...that's why y'all cut me off, because I don't fake it..." -Enock

    "I heard one of your heroes took a fall- give him support, where's the love at now- y'all cut us short" - Sev Statik

  5. #245
    HCR Veterano ZestD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stone View Post
    The Bible doesn't say it's wrong to ease pain in the medical sense. Paul's prescription to Timothy concnerning liquor for his stomach was pretty much in that same line. That's why i think it's ok for that situation. I think it's ok for a police to discharge a firearm in the situation where life is at risk. Doesn't mean i think it's ok for him to recreationally shoot someone. Similar result, different motive.



    I'm sure the same argument could be made for a man paying for a prostitute, it wouldn't make it right. Make up your mind (I don't mean that rudly fam!), you're either doing it for recreation, or because you have a medical condition where liquor is the prescribed remedy.



    Some naturalists? Some drunks would argue that to drink is merely obeying God's command for liquor consumption. I'm not inferring that you are a drunk, so don't infer that I'm a naturalist.

    Pain relieving medication is not any stranger to the Bible (neither is wine). In fact, wine could have been used in cases of extreme pain, to numb it. Similar side effects, different motive.



    I'll let you re-read all of my posts where I made that answer clear.

    Now as far as why I would argue that weed is wrong:

    1) It's a judgement altering drug
    2) it's highly addictive and distractive
    3) it's a great way to bomb your witness

    Do you like the taste of wine or the buzz that you get? just curious
    Seems like a presumptuous statement also. I guess we all have to submit to the teachings of TS?
    "...that's why y'all cut me off, because I don't fake it..." -Enock

    "I heard one of your heroes took a fall- give him support, where's the love at now- y'all cut us short" - Sev Statik

  6. #246
    HCR Veterano Lynaz24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japan View Post
    Alcohol is something to be avoided. I don't drink and really dont feel the need to. If i do get anything is low content (.05%) which is really no strong at all. Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.

    http://frewines.com/
    There are people who drink Beer and Wine for the taste...A Bud Light, Coors does not taste the Same as Guiness or Samuel Adams..

    Just like Chardonnay or Merlot does not taste the same as Kendall Jackson or Blush...

    I'm confused by you saying you don't drink, but then saying "If I DO"....lol

    Just stick to the scripts man..

  7. #247
    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Yo,

    What in the world happened in this thread...


    It went from not influencing a Christian brother/sister to drink as a liberty in Christ to drinking wine/beer being wrong period. That's a major twist.

    Okay, how does what was in the cup at the Last Supper get compared with weed, meth, and LSD? These things are on two different axioms and not all things from the ground are to be eatened or put in the body are they? Do we eat poison ivy? Do we poisonious mushrooms? So not everything from the ground is good to put in our bodies, just like weed, cocaine, and etc isn't.

    One is searching for a universal argument yet not asserting the universal truths of the scripture. Our body is a temple of the most high God and wine nor strong drink were prohibited to be brought in the temple of God.


    Grace and Peace,
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    Now it's cool if Brothers Cross over/But wat's the point of crossing over if you don't take the CROSS OVER~ shai

  8. #248
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Tony,
    Make up your mind (I don't mean that rudly fam!), you're either doing it for recreation, or because you have a medical condition where liquor is the prescribed remedy.
    What do you mean? I haven't been flip-flopping here. I've used these things in both cases. Why does it have to be either/or?

    I've used alcohol/cigars for recreational purposes...i've used them for medicinal purposes.

    When i'm dining out with friends, i will typically have a beer with them. And i usually drink Amber Bock because i like the taste. (to answer one of your questions)

    When my wife and I have a date, we will sometimes share a fruity margarita because we like the fruity taste.

    Purely recreational. Is that wrong? You seem to say, "no", but then ask things in such a way as to possibly imply that there's a problem.

    Same with cigars. I love the smell. Especially from my tobacco pipe. I do it recreationally, again, typically with friends when dining out or just hanging out at the crib.

    Medicinally, i have used alcohol and/or cigars to relax me and help me go to sleep at times. I don't know why it does that to me...doesn't to some...but one beer will usually make me a little sleepy.

    Cigars relax me. Ever since moving to Florida, i haven't been as stressed as i have been in the past (with past jobs), but when i feel a little restless and can't sleep at times, i may light one up to help relax me. Usually does the trick.

    Is this wrong?

    -----------------

    But no, i haven't been wishy washy here. I've done it for both reasons. And in the process of doing so: (to borrow some language from your list)

    1. Though it does alter in the sense that it relaxes, it has never impaired my judgment. NEVER.

    2. It isn't addictive nor distractive. I have NEVER had an uncontrollable urge to want to drink or smoke a cigar.

    3. It has never bombed my witness. In fact, as i have shared before, it has opened up wonderful opportunities with non-believing family members about deeper questions like, what does it mean to be a christian, what is morality, what is the source of knowledge, does science convey truth.

    I could never approach my atheist mother-in-law about Christianity until one thanksgiving day i handed her a Corona. And she did not understand it as a compromise once i actually sat down with her and demonstrated what the Bible had to say about it.

    Nor has it bombed me with other Christians. In fact, the church i attended down here is a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. Huge Piper fanatics. They also had a cigar-themed birthday party for one of their deacons in training, with beer.

    I have found this to be very common in this area. One reason why the whole "american culture" argument doesn't fly with me. Depends on where you're at.
    Pain relieving medication is not any stranger to the Bible (neither is wine). In fact, wine could have been used in cases of extreme pain, to numb it. Similar side effects, different motive.
    Ok. So you advocate wine, but only in the sense of medication? I'm asking this because you're confusing me by continually reminding me of something i affirm.

    Back to the weed thing. You said,
    "I'm curious your take on other substances like weed, lsd, meth, etc. Since the idea of those Scriptures is to avoild any overdose caused by alcohol or any other substance, and the result is that "it's ok to use a small amount of these substances, just not enough to alter you"....

    then you're essentially saying that it's ok to use any drug so long as it doesn't effect you the same way drunkeness does. With that line of thought, its ok for someone to smoke weed so long as they don't get high. It's ok to use crack so long as they don't turn into a crack head. Is it because wine is a "covenent blessing" that stands it out against a plant crop like marijauna or opium?"
    Are you or are you not trying to equate the two? I understood you as equating the two...it seems Cowboy did too.

    If you are equating the two and you argue that marijuana use is wrong, then why wouldn't you argue that drinking alcohol is wrong?

    Or do you...as long as it's for medication... lol.

  9. #249
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japan View Post
    People don't drink wine or beer for the taste.
    You researched this?
    Jesus asked them: "Who do you say I am?" They said: "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of our selfhood revealed." Jesus replied: "Huh?"

  10. #250
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    You researched this?
    LOL...Bond checking in. I was wondering where you were on this one. EVEN THOUGH you pretty much stated your case when this thread was first created back in '92. Talk about "bumping" a thread...lol

  11. #251
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    LOL...Bond checking in. I was wondering where you were on this one. EVEN THOUGH you pretty much stated your case when this thread was first created back in '92. Talk about "bumping" a thread...lol
    '92! lol, yeah that was a minute ago. There's another one around here somewhere.
    Jesus asked them: "Who do you say I am?" They said: "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of our selfhood revealed." Jesus replied: "Huh?"

  12. #252
    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondServant View Post
    '92! lol, yeah that was a minute ago. There's another one around here somewhere.
    Sup with you man? You can't call nobody??? I called you 4 times within in the past 2 weeks and no reply. Are you officially done with the trio?
    Now it's cool if Brothers Cross over/But wat's the point of crossing over if you don't take the CROSS OVER~ shai

  13. #253
    HCR Ole' Head Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stone View Post
    See my thread dealing w/ weed outside the US. Would you tell a Christian from the Netherlands to light one up? It's not apples and oranges (maybe from an American centric view point). In a handful of countries weed and liquor are legal. I'd like to see your view articulated within those contexts.Mine remains the same everywhere. Avoid things that impair your judgement.
    No, what I said was apples and oranges was you comparing CRACK to alcohol. That is the very definition of apples and oranges. Could I condemn someone in another country for smoking weed when it's legal? No. Could I have an open discussion with them about the motives of why they do it, or how far they'll go with it, or comparing the effects of being drunk to the effects of getting high? Sure. However, drinking does not equal getting drunk. So, therefore, comparing drinking to smoking weed is still not even an overly valid argument, although it's the closest thing you have to a point.

    Tony, do you drink coffee? That will offend a portion of our European brothers and sisters who don't drink that, yet they drink a glass of wine with their meals.

  14. #254
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Sup with you man? You can't call nobody??? I called you 4 times within in the past 2 weeks and no reply. Are you officially done with the trio?
    Take a hint, Seal...






























    I'm just kidding. Let me "C" my way out of your conversation...*a kee kee*

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    HCR Ole' Head seal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    Take a hint, Seal...






























    I'm just kidding. Let me "C" my way out of your conversation...*a kee kee*
    Don't make me write another song...perhaps on the both of you...LOL...Again...
    Now it's cool if Brothers Cross over/But wat's the point of crossing over if you don't take the CROSS OVER~ shai

  16. #256
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    I officially nominate this as the Best Ressurected Thread (coming in second would be Ely's "Tounges in the Assembly" thread)
    God's glory alone!

  17. #257
    HCR Veterano BondServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Don't make me write another song...perhaps on the both of you...LOL...Again...
    Please don't.
    Jesus asked them: "Who do you say I am?" They said: "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of our selfhood revealed." Jesus replied: "Huh?"

  18. #258
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Heir View Post
    I officially nominate this as the Best Ressurected Thread (coming in second would be Ely's "Tounges in the Assembly" thread)
    I second and third that.

    First when I saw it, I thought, "Naw...no one who's already posted on this thread will RESTATE anything. This thread will surely find it's way back to the HCR thread cemetary."

    I tried not to contribute to it by posting but when I was Bond my fingers started itching and I had to say something. eh well.

  19. #259
    HCR Veterano Gloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seal View Post
    Don't make me write another song...perhaps on the both of you...LOL...Again...
    "Then there's sista Glo-ri-a/reppin' down in Geor-gi-a..." classic.

  20. #260
    HCR Veterano king neb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    I second and third that.
    I'll drink to that. Someone pop the bubbly.

    lol.

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