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  1. #221
    Young Bol God's Elect's Avatar
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    Be not "drunk" <-- here is the sin ) with wine but....
    ok so your next question will be... go ahead an say it.. how much.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stone View Post
    ha! Yea, which goes back to what I said earlier- I wouldn't encourage any christian who doesn't already drink to drink.

    Likewise, I wouldn't go to someone's church where they wear casual clothing and say "yo man, you should wear u some fitteds and some baggy sweats and a tall t son!".

    Even in reality, there is far less health and spiritual threat to encouraging someone to wear a different style of clothes than there is to tell them to drink.

    I don't think that it's a sin to taste wine (i used to tho!). But I do know this: there are only a few Biblical liberties in the Bible that are coupled with as many warnings as the excess of liquor.
    Except greed, gluttony, pride, laziness and every other sin being coupled with the 'good thing' that was given - money from work, food for eating, doing whatever you put your hand to do with all your might.....

    You still haven't made a real case to bring this up as a 'recommended for believers who don't already drink' thing, TS.
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    nope

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    Most of the time wine and strong drink are mentioned together in scripture, so it is very possible the wine in the Bible was fermented. I don't see any evidence it wasn't. As far as I'm concerned - I don't drink any alcohol, call it a matter of personal conviction. As for others, I'll leave that between them and the LORD as long as they are not "given to wine" a/k/a become drunk from its consumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G.R.A.C.E. Preecha View Post
    Except greed, gluttony, pride, laziness and every other sin being coupled with the 'good thing' that was given - money from work, food for eating, doing whatever you put your hand to do with all your might.....

    You still haven't made a real case to bring this up as a 'recommended for believers who don't already drink' thing, TS.
    Well, that's just me. If some dude (who doesn't drink) asked me if he should go out and get a few drinks, I wouldn't recommend it.

    Peep a good article by Piper that pretty much echos my sentiments on the topic. I know he's someone we both glean from and respect, and he has a way of articulating the position probably better than I'm doing here.. a few quotes

    The least we can infer from all this is that while drinking is not always viewed as wrong, its dangers and harmfulness were such as to call forth numerous warnings, and in some cases (priestly service, Nazirite vow, Timothy's apostolic efforts) abstinence was seen as commendable. Drunkenness is always wrong.
    The implication of this for our lives today is that we must look at the fundamental ethical principle of Scripture, take stock of our own personal and societal situation, and decide whether total abstinence or moderate use is the best way to go. For myself and my family the way I have decided to go is total abstinence. I also believe, in general, that this is the best way for all believers in America today to go.
    I simply cannot see any reason why I should incorporate into my way of life a beverage which not only blurs the fine shades of moral restraints, but also could easily become habit-forming. I say with Paul, "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be enslaved by anything" (1 Corinthians 6:12). If someone laughs and says, "Why not prove you can hold your liquor. Why rule it out on the basis of a possible weakness?" my response is, "I've got nothing to prove.
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    Why do Pastors feel the need to infer that something is wrong when it's not? I was watching a well known preacher this morning brag about how he's never had a drink in his life, how Christ drinking wine was cultural and people in position of leadership shouldn't drink, yet, being as well learned as he is he couldn't outright call it sin. He then went on to say how the person who never drinks will never become a drunk, and to the person that drinks 'it's between them and God". Why/how would a spirit filled person become and alcoholic? Why must pastors and teachers try to scare there flock into not drinking when it's clearly not a sin and something our Lord and Saviour took part in?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KFB View Post
    Why do Pastors feel the need to infer that something is wrong when it's not? I was watching a well known preacher this morning brag about how he's never had a drink in his life, how Christ drinking wine was cultural and people in position of leadership shouldn't drink, yet, being as well learned as he is he couldn't outright call it sin. He then went on to say how the person who never drinks will never become a drunk, and to the person that drinks 'it's between them and God". Why/how would a spirit filled person become and alcoholic? Why must pastors and teachers try to scare there flock into not drinking when it's clearly not a sin and something our Lord and Saviour took part in?
    Because in our culture Christians don't drink. Or if they do, they're obviously worldly and professing but not possessing. So, it's basically a cultural belief. Not biblical. I heard in Russia or one of them countries that it's percieved as worldly to play basketball. I look at this drinking thing as people putting tradition over what the scriptures teach. Nothing new. Sorta like the Pharisees with their "laws".
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    Quote Originally Posted by KFB View Post
    Why do Pastors feel the need to infer that something is wrong when it's not? I was watching a well known preacher this morning brag about how he's never had a drink in his life, how Christ drinking wine was cultural and people in position of leadership shouldn't drink, yet, being as well learned as he is he couldn't outright call it sin. He then went on to say how the person who never drinks will never become a drunk, and to the person that drinks 'it's between them and God". Why/how would a spirit filled person become and alcoholic? Why must pastors and teachers try to scare there flock into not drinking when it's clearly not a sin and something our Lord and Saviour took part in?
    Another part of this (and it may have been covered earlier, I haven't read the whole thread) is we're judgemental on the issue. The scripture are clear. Don't judge a man on what he eats OR DRINKS. But pastors and christian judge people all the time as worldly if people drink. A clear violation of scripture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ras View Post
    Another part of this (and it may have been covered earlier, I haven't read the whole thread) is we're judgemental on the issue. The scripture are clear. Don't judge a man on what he eats OR DRINKS. But pastors and christian judge people all the time as worldly if people drink. A clear violation of scripture.
    Yeh bro, I realize I was long winded but I just get frustrated when respected Pastors and Theologians do there best to prop up traditions as truth. If that's there conviction, that's cool, leave it at.
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    HCR Ole' Head BlackCalvinist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stone View Post
    Well, that's just me. If some dude (who doesn't drink) asked me if he should go out and get a few drinks, I wouldn't recommend it.
    Yeah, I know. I read Piper's take on it a while ago and used to hold that same view. But Piper's a baptist, so he's going to argue that way. (you have to be reformed AND a paedobaptist to understand that statement, so don't take it as an insult - baptists and paedobaptists approach certain issues differently, so there's a different line of thinking with someone approaching it from a baptistic perspective versus a paedobaptistic perspective....and yes, it does cross over into other issues...hence, don't take it as an insult....)

    The argument's still flawed, even from his lips.

    "Well, it's not a sin, but I wouldn't recommend taking in a beverage that can cause you to engage in sin more easily"

    That's the same argument used at the beginning of the Temperance Movement in the late 1800's and Prohibition Era:
    http://reformedanswers.org/answer.as...uestions/site/

    But eh.

    I think this one's a lot better balanced than Piper.
    http://reformedanswers.org/answer.as...uestions/site/

    No, drinking alcohol is not a sin in and of itself. For example, wine is a covenant blessing (e.g. Gen. 27:28; Deut. 7:13; 11:14; 33:28), and was a blessed and acceptable offering to God (e.g. Num. 15:5,7,10). God approved of and encouraged its use (e.g. Deut. 14:26) -- arguably in large doses under certain conditions (Prov. 31:6-7). It is to be enjoyed in appropriate ways in appropriate settings, including its use to make "life merry" (Eccl. 10:19; cf. John 2:1-10).

    Still, there are commandments against drunkenness and carousing (Eccl. 10:17; Rom. 13:13; Gal. 5:21; 1 Pet. 4:3). The heart of these commandments is that we avoid any drunkenness and loose living, whether caused by alcohol or any other substance. In short, there are ways to drink alcohol that are not sinful, as well as ways to drink alcohol that are sinful.
    =================
    Last edited by BlackCalvinist; 01-07-2008 at 01:26 AM. Reason: a little clarification on what I meant.....
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    Still, there are commandments against drunkenness and carousing (Eccl. 10:17; Rom. 13:13; Gal. 5:21; 1 Pet. 4:3). The heart of these commandments is that we avoid any drunkenness and loose living, whether caused by alcohol or any other substance. In short, there are ways to drink alcohol that are not sinful, as well as ways to drink alcohol that are sinful

    Hey bro!

    I'm curious your take on other substances like weed, lsd, meth, etc. Since the idea of those Scriptures is to avoild any overdose caused by alcohol or any other substance, and the result is that "it's ok to use a small amount of these substances, just not enough to alter you"....

    then you're essentially saying that it's ok to use any drug so long as it doesn't effect you the same way drunkeness does. With that line of thought, its ok for someone to smoke weed so long as they don't get high. It's ok to use crack so long as they don't turn into a crack head. Is it because wine is a "covenent blessing" that stands it out against a plant crop like marijauna or opium?

    Who's to tell someone that a crop that God placed on earth is wrong to use (or rather, misuse?). What constitutes the misuse of weed or opium? Your argument allows for someone to use any drug in moderation, so long as they don't get high. I agree w/ any argument that calls for avoidance of anything that's mind or judgement impairing.
    Last edited by Tony Stone; 01-07-2008 at 08:05 AM.

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    Hey T Stone,

    I'm not on any particular side of this one. But, I will say this. Weed, LSD, opium, etc., is all illegal to use. So, right off the top, you have a legal issue, and we are supposed to submit to the laws. Alcohol consumption is not illegal, but it is illegal to be drunk and disorderly and also drive while drunk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Expositor View Post
    Hey T Stone,

    I'm not on any particular side of this one. But, I will say this. Weed, LSD, opium, etc., is all illegal to use. So, right off the top, you have a legal issue, and we are supposed to submit to the laws. Alcohol consumption is not illegal, but it is illegal to be drunk and disorderly and also drive while drunk.
    Weed is not illegal everywhere, and in fact "medical marijuana" is lega in the US. It is legal to use weed in Bangledesh. So what do we say to bangledeshian Christians. "It's ok to smoke a little bit, just not enough to make you high. God made it and it's cool. I won't say don't smoke at all, because it's your liberty. Just be careful not to smoke too much". A wise man would say "stay away from it, the danger of addiction far outweigh the momentary joy".

    Netherlands, it is legal to purchase and purchase in small amounts to people 18 and over (like our cigarettes). How about netherlandian Christians. I suppose it would be legalistic to say "for the purpose of our witness, its best that we do not even purchase it. For the risk of addiction, it's best that you stay away from it".

    In Portugal, you may use up to 2.5 grahms per day limit. You can have in your posession up to 7.5 grahms at any 1 point and time. How about our Portugese Christians? "Make sure if you smoke, keep it under 2.5 grahms. God made this beautiful plant for us to enjoy, just make sure you don't get high." Again, I'd say the wiser man would say "avoid it totally, even if it's legal and if it's a plant that God made. It's much better for our witness and avoiding it is avoiding your chances of becomming addicted"

    Legalities of certain substances varries when we start taking it outside of the American sphere, I agree. So what about those countries that don't look down on marijuana- cultural? Dig right in and smoke it? We'd be up in arms if a Christian from any of those previous mentioned country was a reformed teacher from the pulpit encouraging the use of weed but only saying that it shouldn't be used because of the laws of the land.

    I think wine is great! White wine is great for removing red wine and grape juice stains. Red wine is a great dye for fabrics. Wine is even good for cleaning grease spots off concrete. Drinking it just isn't compelling to me (maybe to other Christians, but just not me). It's good for cooking too (to add flavor).

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    Hey Bro...

    Again, I'm not on any particular side of the debate. I was just mentioning the illegalities of it as it pertains to American law. I do think this is a matter of Christian liberty and therefore no dogmatic stance can really be taken against drinking wine itself, but only as it pertains to drunkenness.

    I think being of a sober mind is important. I also believe that we should not seek to go beyond that which is written in God's word. The Bible doesn't condemn drinking wine altogether, it condemns being drunk, wherein is excess. Because of that, it may be wise for "some" people to not drink at all, if they cannot handle their liberty. Our liberty in Christ should never be used for an occasion to sin.

    However, for some others, drinking in excess is not an issue, because they have learned how to be temperate in all things. After all, temperance is a fruit of the Spirit and should be present in the life of a believer. Temperance in the Greek is "sophrosyne." The root word here, "soph", is derived from the Greek word for wisdom. A temperate drinker of wine is a wise one, in my opinion. In Galatians 5, the Greek word "engkrateria" is used for temperance, which means "self-control" or "discipline." A person who is demonstrating this fruit of the Spirit will not get drunk.

    I understand your concern, bro. I really do. Because I drank a lot before I was saved, I choose not to drink often at all. I never drink "strong drink" as the Bible calls it, but I will have an occasional glass of wine (pinot griggio) with a nice meal. That's probably only about 3-4 times a year. I think that may qualify as temperance. I know my limitations and I don't go beyond them. Now, will I drink in the presence of unbelievers? It depends. I'm sure I have every time I've ordered a glass of wine in public.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Expositor View Post
    Hey Bro...

    Again, I'm not on any particular side of the debate. I was just mentioning the illegalities of it as it pertains to American law. I do think this is a matter of Christian liberty and therefore no dogmatic stance can really be taken against drinking wine itself, but only as it pertains to drunkenness.

    I think being of a sober mind is important. I also believe that we should not seek to go beyond that which is written in God's word. The Bible doesn't condemn drinking wine altogether, it condemns being drunk, wherein is excess. Because of that, it may be wise for "some" people to not drink at all, if they cannot handle their liberty. Our liberty in Christ should never be used for an occasion to sin.

    However, for some others, drinking in excess is not an issue, because they have learned how to be temperate in all things. After all, temperance is a fruit of the Spirit and should be present in the life of a believer. Temperance in the Greek is "sophrosyne." The root word here, "soph", is derived from the Greek word for wisdom. A temperate drinker of wine is a wise one, in my opinion. In Galatians 5, the Greek word "engkrateria" is used for temperance, which means "self-control" or "discipline." A person who is demonstrating this fruit of the Spirit will not get drunk.

    I understand your concern, bro. I really do. Because I drank a lot before I was saved, I choose not to drink often at all. I never drink "strong drink" as the Bible calls it, but I will have an occasional glass of wine (pinot griggio) with a nice meal. That's probably only about 3-4 times a year. I think that may qualify as temperance. I know my limitations and I don't go beyond them. Now, will I drink in the presence of unbelievers? It depends. I'm sure I have every time I've ordered a glass of wine in public.
    Thanks for your feedback bro. I don't think that sipping wine is sin and has never been my argument. My argument has been that I would not encourage anyone to take it up who hasn't already. My argument has been that I would personally avoid it and encourage people around me not to even bother with it. I wouldn't show up in your house and start smashing your wine bottles, tho.

    Also, you said that you don't go w/ strong drink, just wine. What is "strong drink" to you? Is beer=wine or is beer=strong drink? What % of the beverage must be alcoholic to be considered strong drink?

    Also what about weed in the countries that I mentioned? What would you preach to Christians there?

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    Alcohol is something to be avoided. I don't drink and really dont feel the need to. If i do get anything is low content (.05%) which is really no strong at all. Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.

    http://frewines.com/

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    No, drinking alcohol is not a sin in and of itself. For example, wine is a covenant blessing (e.g. Gen. 27:28; Deut. 7:13; 11:14; 33:28), and was a blessed and acceptable offering to God (e.g. Num. 15:5,7,10). God approved of and encouraged its use (e.g. Deut. 14:26) -- arguably in large doses under certain conditions (Prov. 31:6-7). It is to be enjoyed in appropriate ways in appropriate settings, including its use to make "life merry" (Eccl. 10:19; cf. John 2:1-10).

    Still, there are commandments against drunkenness and carousing (Eccl. 10:17; Rom. 13:13; Gal. 5:21; 1 Pet. 4:3). The heart of these commandments is that we avoid any drunkenness and loose living, whether caused by alcohol or any other substance. In short, there are ways to drink alcohol that are not sinful, as well as ways to drink alcohol that are sinful.

    Good stuff there.

    Tony said:
    then you're essentially saying that it's ok to use any drug so long as it doesn't effect you the same way drunkeness does. With that line of thought, its ok for someone to smoke weed so long as they don't get high.
    Let's just say, for sake of argument, that your parallel is correct. That still does not refute the argument. It merely begs the question we had in the first place.

    You agree that drinking alcohol is ok in some circumstances. Question: Does not alcohol alter the brain*?
    * there is a distinction between the brain and the mind, but i won't get into that.
    I would argue, based on Scripture and without even having to experiment for myself, that apparently alcohol alters things; yet this is not forbidden by God per se.

    I think bringing up specific items like cocaine or marijuana is mute at this point.

    The fundamental question here is: does God allow for the use of a substance that can alter your mind/brain?

    And again, i'd have to say yes. To a certain degree, He allows it.

    ----

    Tony, have you ever taken an aspirin? Is that ok?

    When you have children, does your wife plan on having an epidural or will you go completely natural? Morphine, which is the active agent in opium, is used for a number of situations in hospitals, including epidurals.

    How far are you willing to take your argument?

    If you're willing to get onto literally thousands of Christian women for using morphine during a birth and can justify your complaint from Scripture, then i guess that would be ok. But where is the justification for it? And if there isn't any, how can your parallel scenario above be used as an argument?
    Last edited by king neb; 01-07-2008 at 12:47 PM.

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    Neb,

    The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.

    Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?

    You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.

    If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stone View Post
    Neb,

    The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.

    Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?

    You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.

    If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.
    I agree Stone

    Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.

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    The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.
    And? So that makes it right? Perhaps God doesn't want you to stop the pain. He is the one that created the whole thing to start with, did he not?

    Some have argued that we shouldn't use alcohol as a crutch. We should face up to the circumstances upon which God has sovereignly brought us. Some people take that a step further and argue for natural births.

    Why do you think it is ok in that situation but not for recreational purposes? Seems arbitrary to me.
    Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?
    No, but it does tend to relax me and sometimes relieves headaches. So do cigars.

    Is that a problem? If so, why?
    You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.
    Dire need in what sense? It certainly is no life or death situation. And again, even if it were, some naturalists would argue that to die would merely be accepting the natural course of God's sovereign decrees.

    Why do you qualify it as dire need? Again, seems arbitrary.
    If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.[/quote]
    Ok. Back to the question. Do you believe recreational drinking is wrong? If so, why. If not, and you make a parallel to marijuana, then why would you argue that marijuana is wrong?
    Last edited by king neb; 01-07-2008 at 02:34 PM.

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