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View Full Version : John Legend sings at church a in Philly



alexmedina
07-26-2011, 10:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwElG8p8W0o&feature=relmfu

mmm.. sooo wack. (not sonically everything else about it.)

Ras
07-26-2011, 10:42 AM
Calvary Baptist. I think that's the church CM used to use for their concert.

Ras
07-26-2011, 10:51 AM
At least none of the church mothers ran up to him while he was singing and wrap their arms and legs around him. That wouldn't have been a good look. Especially at their age.

clayfilms
07-26-2011, 12:05 PM
Is it just me or could this be seen as a metaphor for the church being a prostitute?

Dude came through, used the church to get his "gospel jollies" and then bounced on some "it was fun!"

People LOVE church music, but the gospel? Not so much.

GloMoGo
07-26-2011, 12:07 PM
Is it just me or could this be seen as a metaphor for the church being a prostitute?

Dude came through, used the church to get his "gospel jollies" and then bounced on some "it was fun!"

People LOVE church music, but the gospel? Not so much.

Whoa...so true.

Brotha Kali
07-26-2011, 12:08 PM
smh..he can't sing anyways

GloMoGo
07-26-2011, 12:08 PM
smh..he can't sing anyways

Whatttt? I love his voice. eh well.

Brotha Kali
07-26-2011, 12:10 PM
and folks will have photo's and videos to brag about his appearance...James 2: 1- 13

Brotha Kali
07-26-2011, 12:11 PM
Whatttt? I love his voice. eh well.

LOL.....different strokes...i like a few of his songs...always sounds like he's trying to hard to me.

jeyjey34
07-26-2011, 12:14 PM
I have the perfect song for this type of stuff...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14-MxUIELg8

Brotha Kali
07-26-2011, 12:17 PM
Whatttt? I love his voice. eh well.

Glo & Jerry, I bet there's about 10 to 20 folks just at that church who can sing him under the table :-)

eve
07-26-2011, 12:29 PM
john legend has always sounded like the Cowardly Lion to me.

FollowerOfChrist1
07-26-2011, 12:42 PM
Is it just me or could this be seen as a metaphor for the church being a prostitute?

Dude came through, used the church to get his "gospel jollies" and then bounced on some "it was fun!"

People LOVE church music, but the gospel? Not so much.

Had to come out from lurk mode to thank this post lol.

HigherThought
07-26-2011, 12:50 PM
Ras you mean Calvery Chapel? Or the Church where Amba did his Christology release party?

Ras
07-26-2011, 12:53 PM
Ras you mean Calvery Chapel? Or the Church where Amba did his Christology release party?

I think I'm thinking about the release party.

Azriel
07-26-2011, 01:23 PM
as a pastor, I can't really express how grievous it was to watch that. specifically regarding the pastor handing over the mic part. yet, at the same time, the question regarding the celebration or presentation thereof, of who or exactly what was being celebrated.

Don't mean to be a killjoy but dag, I'm grieved more and more daily as the church, esp in the urban context is nothing more than a 'feeder' for the worldly entertainment system. Added to the fact that Christian Entertainment is increasingly becoming synonymous with the world regarding the platform, position and power of the artist and lack of accountability or biblical ecclesiology that has led to the seemingly "3rd" office of the Church; Elder, Deacon and now Entertainer.

But I digress...............

seal
07-26-2011, 01:36 PM
as a pastor, I can't really express how grievous it was to watch that. specifically regarding the pastor handing over the mic part. yet, at the same time, the question regarding the celebration or presentation thereof, of who or exactly what was being celebrated.

Don't mean to be a killjoy but dag, I'm grieved more and more daily as the church, esp in the urban context is nothing more than a 'feeder' for the worldly entertainment system. Added to the fact that Christian Entertainment is increasingly becoming synonymous with the world regarding the platform, position and power of the artist and lack of accountability or biblical ecclesiology that has led to the seemingly "3rd" office of the Church; Elder, Deacon and now Entertainer.

But I digress...............

Wow a visitation of Wisdom!!!!!!!!!! Amen!!! Good to hear from you bro and you made some profound points for me to chew on. Good stuff.

That video was painful to watch and it's crazy how much Honor and Reverance was given to them man over and above that which was suppose to be given to the God he was supposively singing to and about. I mean there isn't a place for such a thing in Worship of a Holy God to have a known Philistine (who can sing) come into the congregation to give a wack song selection....

But I'll digress..... Hopefully this is a clear showing of the state of the churches in urban communities.


Grace and Peace,
seal

GloMoGo
07-26-2011, 02:15 PM
john legend has always sounded like the Cowardly Lion to me.

Hilarious.

joseph29
07-26-2011, 02:25 PM
reminds me of that royal order line "the same government we war with they bring em to church; tell us to vote for the best liar cuz they all doing dirt"
to me this is no different when a politician comes to a random church; says a few words about why we should vote for him and than bounces. I dont know legend's heart and i guess he did it out of pure intentions; but I would think the pastor should've had more wisdom in terms of having him sing on sunday morning. As a pastor you're supposed to be a shepard for the congregation and there are somethings u shouldn't allow. What if rick ross came in and said he wanted to lead the congregation in prayer and worship? If this is something God placed on his heart for him to do; who knows maybe he is in the right; otherwise he's wilin.

simply seth
07-26-2011, 02:41 PM
<sarcasm>
<pragmatic heresy>As long as people get saved</pragmatic heresy>
</sarcasm>

HigherThought
07-26-2011, 11:59 PM
I think I'm thinking about the release party.

Nahh, that was in North Philly, similar name though. The one Duce did his Christology album release party at was at 16th and Fairmount in North Philly and was called The Calvary Baptist Church. See PIC (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=15th+and+fairmount+phila&hl=en&ll=39.966877,-75.163799&spn=0.005937,0.010171&gl=us&layer=c&cbll=39.966877,-75.163799&panoid=KQdzeh14u7LzyJktSQg1Iw&cbp=12,136.71,,0,2.28&z=17)


The Church CM did most of the album release parties were at Calvary Chapel in North East Philly. See Website (http://www.ccphilly.org/)

HigherThought
07-27-2011, 12:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwElG8p8W0o&feature=relmfu

mmm.. sooo wack. (not sonically everything else about it.)


Is it just me or could this be seen as a metaphor for the church being a prostitute?

Dude came through, used the church to get his "gospel jollies" and then bounced on some "it was fun!"

People LOVE church music, but the gospel? Not so much.


and folks will have photo's and videos to brag about his appearance...James 2: 1- 13


as a pastor, I can't really express how grievous it was to watch that. specifically regarding the pastor handing over the mic part. yet, at the same time, the question regarding the celebration or presentation thereof, of who or exactly what was being celebrated.

Don't mean to be a killjoy but dag, I'm grieved more and more daily as the church, esp in the urban context is nothing more than a 'feeder' for the worldly entertainment system. Added to the fact that Christian Entertainment is increasingly becoming synonymous with the world regarding the platform, position and power of the artist and lack of accountability or biblical ecclesiology that has led to the seemingly "3rd" office of the Church; Elder, Deacon and now Entertainer.

But I digress...............

Here I go being the oddball having to defend what for the most part is being blasted. I'm for calling out wackness but I saw the video and what exactly in the video validates these remarks? I'm actually wanting to know. Is it because he's a secular artist? I really don't know too much about John Legend except that I heard some of his music but nothing foul nor heard anything wack about his lifestyle. If this was Chris Brown than I would understand the concerns. I don't understand the comment about the cell phones. Have you been to a Reach, Lampmode or CM concert? You would think a cell phone camera commercial was being filmed. Nothing wrong with people taking pictures. Was it about his last comment about it being fun? You know how much Reach, Lampmode and CM after rocking shows how fun it was? Saying something was fun is not bad. It's ok to say that. Was it his comments about great soul singers being groomed in Black Churches? All he was stating was a fact.

The only thing I can think of that raises for me concerns was his statements about exploring his roots and singing with the choir reminding him of his childhood. Is he alluding to Church not being a part of his life or just that he was in a choir when a child? Another question I would raise is what faith is he in? If he's an unbeliever or perhaps practices another faith, then it would be wack for him to use something regarded as sacred for Christians in a cavalier fashion.

As to the Church? I don't see anything suspect. In fact, regardless of where John Legend is at in his life, by the Church allowing him to sing with the choir, could have had a sacred impact on his life.

K-Train
07-27-2011, 12:34 AM
People LOVE church music, but the gospel? Not so much.

Deeper than the Earth's Core.................

Tony Stone
07-27-2011, 08:51 PM
Let's see a standing ovation for Christ & His gospel preached...you would have thought Jesus just walked into the building

Chuksxp
07-28-2011, 06:07 AM
Here I go being the oddball having to defend what for the most part is being blasted. I'm for calling out wackness but I saw the video and what exactly in the video validates these remarks? I'm actually wanting to know. Is it because he's a secular artist? I really don't know too much about John Legend except that I heard some of his music but nothing foul nor heard anything wack about his lifestyle. If this was Chris Brown than I would understand the concerns. I don't understand the comment about the cell phones. Have you been to a Reach, Lampmode or CM concert? You would think a cell phone camera commercial was being filmed. Nothing wrong with people taking pictures. Was it about his last comment about it being fun? You know how much Reach, Lampmode and CM after rocking shows how fun it was? Saying something was fun is not bad. It's ok to say that. Was it his comments about great soul singers being groomed in Black Churches? All he was stating was a fact.

The only thing I can think of that raises for me concerns was his statements about exploring his roots and singing with the choir reminding him of his childhood. Is he alluding to Church not being a part of his life or just that he was in a choir when a child? Another question I would raise is what faith is he in? If he's an unbeliever or perhaps practices another faith, then it would be wack for him to use something regarded as sacred for Christians in a cavalier fashion.

As to the Church? I don't see anything suspect. In fact, regardless of where John Legend is at in his life, by the Church allowing him to sing with the choir, could have had a sacred impact on his life.

Honestly, I don't know where to stand on this issue but you do have a point there.

HigherThought
07-28-2011, 10:59 AM
Tony, how do you know what this congregation is like towards the Gospel? Forgive me if that's not what you're saying but the jest of your comment doesn't seem positive. And do you feel the same way when lecrae walks on stage and gets a standing ovation?

GloMoGo
07-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Mr. Cordero is officially back. OFFICIALLY.

Tony Stone
07-28-2011, 01:21 PM
Tony, how do you know what this congregation is like towards the Gospel? Forgive me if that's not what you're saying but the jest of your comment doesn't seem positive. And do you feel the same way when lecrae walks on stage and gets a standing ovation?

1) I would feel that way if a Christian doctor walks up on stage and people are rejoicing over him because he's a great practitioner during a public gathering
2) The public gathering is not for putting "super stars" - Christian or not- on the stage.
3) Why is he leading public worship in a way that suggests that he is special and better (high introduction)?
4) I have this EXACT same problem with any CHH hijacking the public worship as some sort of personality. And you should, too.

Redeemed
07-28-2011, 01:37 PM
Let's see a standing ovation for Christ & His gospel preached...you would have thought Jesus just walked into the building

Actually the gist of Tony's message seems to have a positive bent towards directing singular glory to Christ (His Person and Work) as opposed to any figure in culture.


Tony, how do you know what this congregation is like towards the Gospel? Forgive me if that's not what you're saying but the jest of your comment doesn't seem positive. And do you feel the same way when lecrae walks on stage and gets a standing ovation?

I see less of a negative shadow cast on the congregation and more of a positive exhortation to be Christ centered in worship. At least that's my take on what Tony presents...please correct me (Tony) if your intention was to make a jest of the congregation or belittle them.

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 02:25 PM
1) he mentioned the choir aspect and paying his way through school being a music director... no mention of being a Christian or Jesus
2) "let's see if we can get the crowd, the church movin"
3) such an INTRODUCTION sheesh
4) he sang the gospel portion of the song... hmm :)
5) Did we mention they let him LEAD WORSHIP?!!!??!?!? #FAIL
6) said he explored his roots... and had fun. nothing wrong with that really.. except for the fact that he speaks of it as "his roots" musically... buttttt Jesus, transformation?

LOTS OF QUESTIONS.

now this of course is an edited video. I would have to inquire if the pastor asked him "is it well with your soul, John?"

Tony Stone
07-28-2011, 02:27 PM
Actually the gist of Tony's message seems to have a positive bent towards directing singular glory to Christ (His Person and Work) as opposed to any figure in culture.



I see less of a negative shadow cast on the congregation and more of a positive exhortation to be Christ centered in worship. At least that's my take on what Tony presents...please correct me (Tony) if your intention was to make a jest of the congregation or belittle them.

It was my attempt to be "down the middle" - not negative in bashing, not positive in giving them props, but definitely an exhortation that them (and everyone) should take on that type of rejoicing posture with the gospel in light of our tendencies to get excited over everything else.

As positive as an exhortation can be, in my book!

HigherThought
07-28-2011, 02:37 PM
Tony but are you not reading in your own meaning into what you're seeing? Since when does people standing up and taking pictures in Church amount to doing something less than sacred? In regards to your second point, many Christian rappers such as lecrae, amba, shai, etc, mind you, using your beats, have performed/ministered during a Church service, are you saying the Bible is against that? Your third point is not whats taking place but your interpretation, no? I agree with point 4 but how do you know that's taking place? What about guest preachers? Piper, Drisco, etc, have all introduced preachers to preach in like manner, were they wrong?

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Tony but are you not reading in your own meaning into what you're seeing? Since when does people standing up and taking pictures in Church amount to doing something less than sacred? In regards to your second point, many Christian rappers such as lecrae, amba, shai, etc, mind you, using your beats, have performed/ministered during a Church service, are you saying the Bible is against that? Your third point is not whats taking place but your interpretation, no? I agree with point 4 but how do you know that's taking place? What about guest preachers? Piper, Drisco, etc, have all introduced preachers to preach in like manner, were they wrong?

oh no no no ..
1) i want to hear a clip of piper, driscoll or someone being introduced LIKE that preacher introduced John. A christian rapper (sure) by a wade-o or dj, but a pastor...mmm nahhhh....
2) DIFFERENCE: R&B Neosoul Singer vs Christian Rapper/Pastor. Apples to Oranges man. You have a person submitted to the gospel and being held accountable to lead people in worship. you know that. vs. someone who doesnt and is possibly unregenerate. that faultiness would fall on that church.

HigherThought
07-28-2011, 03:48 PM
Smoke, do you mean tone of voice and expression by saying "like that?" If so then you really think that the difference between piper introducing a preacher and this pastor introducing Legend is the tone and expression of the introduction? Piper, Eric Mason, Duce, Drisco have all introduced preachers to the pulpit while giving them accolades and running down past achievements. Is that wrong? I don't see any difference in the clip's introduction. If you want to harp on the tone and expression then isn't that splitting hairs?

In regard to who, I don't know if having to be member of that Church is an issue. I would wonder if he is a member of any Church which would raise concerns for him. In regards to being possibly unregenerate. Well, that's an intangible that can be true about anyone who sings or raps at a Church service.

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 05:18 PM
Do you think worship of a Holy God is a fearful thing? What about leading worship of a Holy God during a service?

We see John Legend's oft publicly sinful life. Does that give pause to a pastor to say "hey, I love you, I appreciate you coming down, but you are man like all and I can not let you lead worship without bearing fruits of repentance." That happens in all churches, not even new believers should do that. I think BlackCalvinist's statement about new believers not having a mic is true.

There are such things as evidences of grace, fruits of repentance. It's in the Bible Cruz. These type of issues are raised in the Bible. In the Bible! This is not just OPINION. We should lovingly correct these things.

And as an example, what about taking the instructions Paul gave with taking the Lord's supper? Obviously, there's a seriousness about the sacraments, worship

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-28-2011, 05:37 PM
One thing that I caught was that he said was "I haven't performed in a church in a while." IMO you don't perform in a church for the congregation. You should be ministering.

You know how if you go into a certain circle of old friends and try to act like your old self after they know you done changed? You look like a fish out of water trying to fit in. He looks like he's a stranger to the atmosphere even though everyone is following him. He also looks like he's performing and not giving everything God's given him back to God in worship. He looks like he was singing to the congregation. IMO He should be singing to God. "We did out thing with them and it was cool"

This was a flat out performance. Not ministry. How many church folk do you think went out and bought his latest album that day even though he does secular R&B?

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 05:41 PM
IMO He should be singing to God.

Thats not an OPINION!!! LOL! Thats basic Colossians 3!!! This was DURING a service, not a Friday function, etc etc this was during a service. That's what I mean.


Here I go being the oddball

The fact that you said that urges me to ask you to think deeply about this subject. We saw this before with JayZ. Could it be to defend those who are non-"Gospel singers or rappers" is a passion for you? Would it hurt to say "you know what I'll leave this alone this alone to pray" I disagree. I see someone in the Bible like Simon and I hear how John describes the Church as if it is just a breeding ground for R&B and NeoSoul careers and I think "hmm thats odd you recognize that. Does that not concern you, John?" I mean even Mary Mary finally got it, when Erica talked at the BET Awards.

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Thats not an OPINION!!! LOL! Thats basic Colossians 3!!! This was DURING a service, not a Friday function, etc etc this was during a service. That's what I mean.

Yes, you are right. You need to have that avatar growling for this thread. lol More like this one.
http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/120/5e63b10e72a64d54af0bce210b2e2299/l.jpg

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 06:09 PM
ha no. I think I have Cruz's number. because Im not wanting to sound as if im berating him or angry. hence my LOL's. cuz Cruz is cool dude. For real :)

Tony Stone
07-28-2011, 07:02 PM
Tony but are you not reading in your own meaning into what you're seeing? Since when does people standing up and taking pictures in Church amount to doing something less than sacred? In regards to your second point, many Christian rappers such as lecrae, amba, shai, etc, mind you, using your beats, have performed/ministered during a Church service, are you saying the Bible is against that? Your third point is not whats taking place but your interpretation, no? I agree with point 4 but how do you know that's taking place? What about guest preachers? Piper, Drisco, etc, have all introduced preachers to preach in like manner, were they wrong?

Lets draw it closer to home than CHH artists using my beats, if I were personally introduced into a congregation's public worship service to make a "pop" guest appearance as a super star to lead the congregation in worship, I'd have a problem with that. A realistic introduction of a guest preacher is reasonable, not a freaking standing ovation and paparatzi event during the public gathering, come on bro???

I know tons of churches do concert events in the public gathering- I don't think what a concert is and what a public worship gathering is are the same thing- I think they're different- both are God sanctioned, but don't think the concert captures the reality of what we do when we gather as a church. So on that level, I disagree with churches making that a part of the GATHERING. I don't think it's wrong to do after, though, think it's good. At best, what we saw was the public service misused. At worse, we saw the church whoring after star power. Either way, it's not a good look.

HigherThought
07-28-2011, 07:12 PM
Smoke where do we see Legend living a sinful life? I've asked that question before but know one answered it.

HigherThought
07-28-2011, 07:17 PM
One thing that I caught was that he said was "I haven't performed in a church in a while." IMO you don't perform in a church for the congregation. You should be ministering.

Actually people do perform. Performing does not mean not ministering.

HigherThought
07-28-2011, 07:26 PM
Tone it seems to me that your gripe is all based on lines that you have created not ones that God reveals in his holy writ. I don't think it's right to look down on a Church on the basis of lines you have drawn. It's cool to say, I won't do this based on lines you have drawn.

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 08:29 PM
Actually people do perform. Performing does not mean not ministering.

You didnt watch Sunday Best did you when homeboy got cut from the competition cuz he took a bow after screaming "Praise the Lord! Hallelujah!" did you? LOL. Donny McClurkin even called the fakery out. LOL.

This of course is all not speculation because John made it clear in a statement that I above quoted that he was coming to perform. there was no indication he wanted to minister. Cruz you make good points, granted. But after watching the video, and listening to the words out of his mouth, what you saying isnt adding up unfortunately.

As far as the Church goes, we're not looking down on them or even the pastor. We're saying biblically, this was not wise.

Love you, bro :)

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 08:37 PM
Smoke where do we see Legend living a sinful life? I've asked that question before but know one answered it.

I dont want to post the secular videos on here. I dont want people to stumble. But you can find them. Try Green Light by Andre3000 and John Legend. He sings "Im ready to go" Andre raps that the "going" is to her house and the bedroom. That is promoting sex out of the context of marriage and promiscuity. That is not just ambiguous R&B "love". That's ONE example Crusito... :(

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-28-2011, 08:40 PM
Actually people do perform. Performing does not mean not ministering.

Yeah, I know, but it seemed more like a publicity stunt/him going back to church to sing. I don't see a place for that in the Sunday service. We had Antonio Neal come to our church with our pastor one time because their friends and he was in town. He did 2 or 3 songs. It was a little different though. He didn't have cameras following him and he is a known Christian artist and has a track record for singing Christian music. He performed the first song, but it turned into worship after that and it didn't look like he was performing for us.

undadog4eva
07-28-2011, 09:13 PM
crazy to see how cruz is arguin:(...well he's not reformed so that bias mos def plays into it as well...so sad to see where this dude has progressed from! i mean this is the same dude who rapped this:

"Eyes off me & Eyes on him...Eyes off me and on the Jehovah Rophi/who rules with iron scepter!":wideeyed:

He's gone from that to championing for creflo, canton and now John legend's performance in corporate worship!:confused::cry:

shekinahsmoke
07-28-2011, 10:15 PM
we dont stay in the Word and in constant fellowship with Jesus, if we dont stay in repentance and humble...that is the end result.

hol up fam you cant say that about Cruz. misunderstood often, yes, against the grain, yes, but not "falling away" LOL. Cruz seems to just want to show the body that we're hypocrites for the ways we judge the world and other members of the body. we're judgmental and often times to our detriment. Its true. Its very true. But the problem is that Cruz sticks his nose in as if its his duty to be the hero, to be the "oddball". That's not cool. I get it already.

So my thing is examine the video. Listen to what John is saying and what he does. That's all it takes. That's what I tried to do. Forget the history of "OH THIS RKELLY SO AND SO, MASE SO AND SO... " nah... John Legend and what he says in the video and what he does. Point blank.

undadog4eva
07-28-2011, 10:42 PM
hol up fam you cant say that about Cruz. misunderstood often, yes, against the grain, yes, but not "falling away" LOL. Cruz seems to just want to show the body that we're hypocrites for the ways we judge the world and other members of the body. we're judgmental and often times to our detriment. Its true. Its very true. But the problem is that Cruz sticks his nose in as if its his duty to be the hero, to be the "oddball". That's not cool. I get it already.

So my thing is examine the video. Listen to what John is saying and what he does. That's all it takes. That's what I tried to do. Forget the history of "OH THIS RKELLY SO AND SO, MASE SO AND SO... " nah... John Legend and what he says in the video and what he does. Point blank.

no one is sayin that he "lost" his salvation...that's wack...but for clarity sake i removed it coz it was confusin...

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 12:46 AM
crazy to see how cruz is arguin:(...well he's not reformed so that bias mos def plays into it as well...so sad to see where this dude has progressed from! i mean this is the same dude who rapped this:

"Eyes off me & Eyes on him...Eyes off me and on the Jehovah Rophi/who rules with iron scepter!":wideeyed:

He's gone from that to championing for creflo, canton and now John legend's performance in corporate worship!:confused::cry:

You speak as if I don't exist on this forum. Word of advise, if you're going to point out what seemingly looks like sinfulness, don't sin yourself. In one post you sinned by prejudging me and judging me wrongly. If you're going to judge me, use right judgement (John 7:24). You're wrong to say that I'm going astray. Others that personally know me continue to bear witness of growth and maturity and at times kick me in the teeth when I slip up. But they can do that. They've known me for years. You on the other hand is some guy on a forum posting from a computer or phone somewhere in Australia. Scripture says to not speak evil against your brother ( James 4) yet you have spoken evil of me by insinuating I'm somehow less of a Christian than I was in 1998. Not only is that speaking low of me but not giving God's sanctifying work in me just due. By bearing false witness of me you're bearing false witness of God's work. Give God much more credit than that. Moreover, you're making false accusations by asserting that I'm "championing" Creflo, Legend and Canton. False! I'm not, with the exception that I do defend Canton differently than I did with Ceflo, in no way am I promoting Creflo. In my eyes Canjo and Creflo are two different people. What i have done with Creflo is deal with him fairly by attributing things to him that he also would attribute and by defending him against misinterpretations and stigmatization. A WOF teacher he is and one who has taken prosperity too far. To call his theology the Gospel is nothing more than a caricature. He doesn't refer to his prosperity theology as the Gospel so by calling it a Gospel is a misrepresentation. In regards to legend. All I did was comment on the video and judging it by it's own merit. I don't agree with the assumptions being made about a Church we know very little about and John legend's heart in regards to being at the Church. I think to point fingers at a congregation simply because they stood up and whipped out their camera phones when the same takes place in holy-spirit-filled-sanctified-sacred rap concerts, with approval, is hypocritical, especially if you're one of those people. Romans 2:1-3 speaks against such actions. None of this amounts to me championing anyone. You're also bearing false witness by insinuating that I don't stay in God's word or in constant fellowship with Jesus and that I'm living in sin. Says who? Some tongue-toting kid from Australia on a message forum? Please duke, "“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."(Matt. 7:1-5).

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 12:49 AM
hol up fam you cant say that about Cruz.

Thanks bro, means a lot for someone to actually speak up. I've been encouraged to come back and see lots of growth, in particularly in Zema, Glo, and Jey-Jey.

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 01:37 AM
I dont want to post the secular videos on here. I dont want people to stumble. But you can find them. Try Green Light by Andre3000 and John Legend. He sings "Im ready to go" Andre raps that the "going" is to her house and the bedroom. That is promoting sex out of the context of marriage and promiscuity. That is not just ambiguous R&B "love". That's ONE example Crusito... :(

Thanks for sharing that. Ok than that raises concerns for him not for the Church. for the aforementioned reasons I gave.

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 02:13 AM
What got me was he came "performed" then bounced. Like he didn't even stay for the word. Maybe he was on a tight schedule ( doubt it) But it seemed very Hollywood to me. And the Pastor should have done a better job...I agree with D.A

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 02:34 AM
What got me was he came "performed" then bounced. Like he didn't even stay for the word. Maybe he was on a tight schedule ( doubt it) But it seemed very Hollywood to me. And the Pastor should have done a better job...I agree with D.A

A better job at what?

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 02:44 AM
A better job at what?

Being a pastor.

If you were the pastor would you allow him to sing at your church?

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 02:52 AM
Being a pastor.

If you were the pastor would you allow him to sing at your church?

Maybe not but why would my choice make his choice bad or make him less of a pastor?

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 03:00 AM
Maybe not but why would my choice make his choice bad or make him less of a pastor?

You admit you wouldn't/ So there must be an issue you see... Whatever that issue is the same issue this pastor should of had. He not less of a pastor, but it was a bad decision.

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 03:11 AM
You admit you wouldn't/ So there must be an issue you see... Whatever that issue is the same issue this pastor should of had. He not less of a pastor, but it was a bad decision.

Maybe I wouldn't because that's not my steeze. Plus, it's hard to ask what anyone would do since we really don't know the decision process that went on, hence why I said, "maybe" not. Why is this a bad decision? What makes this bad? Crossing a busy high way is a bad decision. Choosing to smoke crack, buying something you can't afford, etc, are all bad decisions. What makes allowing John legend to sing, " How I Got Over," a bad decision?

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 03:18 AM
Maybe I wouldn't because that's not my steeze. Plus, it's hard to ask what anyone would do since we really don't know the decision process that went on, hence why I said, "maybe" not. Why is this a bad decision? What makes this bad? Crossing a busy high way is a bad decision. Choosing to smoke crack, buying something you can't afford, etc, are all bad decisions. What makes allowing John legend to sing, " How I Got Over," a bad decision?

There are a 100 reasons.

I'll give one.

Allowing someone to sing in your Church who does not know Jesus sends a message that you can come and sing a song in church and be fine. This is why so many celebrities continue in sin because pastors don't tell them, you need to be saved before you talk about getting over....you ain't even got over yet. Dude is singing a LIE and the pastor applauds???

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 03:33 AM
There are a 100 reasons.

I'll give one.

Allowing someone to sing in your Church who does not know Jesus sends a message that you can come and sing a song in church and be fine. This is why so many celebrities continue in sin because pastors don't tell them, you need to be saved before you talk about getting over....you ain't even got over yet. Dude is singing a LIE and the pastor applauds???

Wait, "this is why so many celebrities continue to sin?" Really? So celebrities are going to keep sinning because John Legend sang a song in Church? The source of celebrities sinning is because of what we're seeing in the video? There are couple of problems with your reasoning here. One, you don't know John Legend therefore can't say if he's saved or not. Secondly, since when living sinless become a qualification for singing a song to God in Church? If that's a qualification then not one of us should be singing in Church. Thirdly, it's one thing to say something is less than real in John Legend if you believe he's not saved, but its quite another thing to question the pastor on this matter. You're looking at the tangible ( John legend) while I'm "looking" at the intangible ( God being glorified). If God has provided instruments, sound systems, etc, created by unbelievers, in the worshiping and proclaiming of his name, then he can use John legend. Rocks and Trees are impersonal objects that are said to praise God. If such things can cry out to God, then surely John legend can.

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 03:44 AM
Wait, "this is why so many celebrities continue to sin?" Really? So celebrities are going to keep sinning because John Legend sang a song in Church?

No. How did you get that from what I said?


The source of celebrities sinning is because of what we're seeing in the video?

No. Again not sure where you pulled that from.


One, you don't know John Legend therefore can't say if he's saved or not.

I have zero reasons to believe he is. Do you believe he is? Unless you have something that gives me reason to believe he is, I see no reason to not assume he isn't.


Secondly, since when living sinless become a qualification for singing a song to God in Church?

Continue in sin = not being saved.

It's obvious that we still sin. But for these famous people who grew up in the church they really believe they can deny Christ with their actions and be saved. Yet these pastors allow them to come and sing a song on Easter or something instead of saying "No, you need to be born again"

Now maybe some pastors have done that ( I'd applaud them if I knew who they were) But for those who don't they are not helping them at all.

When I say "continue in sin" I mean Continue in a life in rebellion to Christ, aka non Christians.

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 04:15 AM
After asking you, "What makes allowing John legend to sing, "How I Got Over," a bad decision?" You said and I quote, "I'll give one. Allowing someone to sing in your Church who does not know Jesus sends a message that you can come and sing a song in church and be fine. This is why so many celebrities continue in sin because pastors don't tell them, you need to be saved before you talk about getting over.

In other words if pastor allows JL to sing then celebrities continue in sin. That is your statement in a nutshell. Let me add though that you're also saying if pastor allows JL to sing and does not tell them they need to be saved in order to sing "How I Got Over," then celebrities continue in sin. That's not true at all. sin's source is the heart, not anything we saw in the video (Matthew 15:16-20). in regards to John Legend being saved or not, I can't comment on either and nor should you. You really don't know. Give me a reason why you're saved? Maybe that will help me in how you judge people's eternal life.

You said he's living a life of rebellion? How do you know that? You personally know him or are you concluding this on the basis of some songs he performed? Plus, it's true that any pastor should tell people they need to be born again. But the question is do you need to be born again to sing a song that praises God? No you don't. As I said in my third point, God can use anything and any one to glorify his name, after all, the psalter writes, "let everything that has breath praise the Lord." (Ps 150) The Psalter didn't say let only God's people praise the Lord.

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 04:36 AM
After asking you, "What makes allowing John legend to sing, "How I Got Over," a bad decision?" You said and I quote, "I'll give one. Allowing someone to sing in your Church who does not know Jesus sends a message that you can come and sing a song in church and be fine. This is why so many celebrities continue in sin because pastors don't tell them, you need to be saved before you talk about getting over. In other words if pastor allows JL to sing then celebrities continue in sin. That is your statement in a nutshell. Let me add though that you're also saying if pastor allows JL to sing and does not tell them they need to be saved in order to sing "How I Got Over," then celebrities continue in sin. That's not true at all. sin's source is the heart, not anything we saw in the video (Matthew 15:16-20).

You are being too literal.

If I tell you that the reason kids are so crazy today is because of the music they listen to, you would not then conclude that therefore sin, parents, wicked hearts, peer pressure, tv movies and other factors did not play a role. You would understand me to be saying that music is ONE of the reasons.

My comment was not at all trying to make THAT the REASON celebrities continue in sin. That would be silly. They were sinful before they met the pastor.

The point is pastors NURTURE this wrong understanding. Just like when amba told you to lay off they message boards, he stopped you from continuing in sin/unwise convo/senseless arguments etc. These pastors can do the same. They can stop these men and women from thinking the way they live is right. Pastors ought to warn.


in regards to John Legend being saved or not, I can't comment on either and nor should you. You really don't know. Give me a reason why you're saved? Maybe that will help me in how you judge people's eternal life.


You can't comment? How do you know if someone is saved at all? Is ambassador saved? How do you know? Not just because he tells you right?...there is evidence.

I have no reason to believe he is. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

You're no dummy. You know plenty of passages that would show a person is saved. The whole book of 1 John is a nice place to look. :D


You said he's living a life of rebellion? How do you know that? You personally know him or are you concluding this on the basis of some songs he performed?

Those without Christ are in rebellion. I don't have to know Osama Bin Laden personally to know he was not a believer. Again, nothing about his life, or his words words, give me reason to believe he is saved.


But the question is do you need to be born again to sing a song that praises God? No you don't. As I said in my third point, God can use anything and any one to glorify his name, after all, the psalter writes, "let everything that has breath praise the Lord." (Ps 150) The Psalter didn't say let only God's people praise the Lord.

He can praise the Lord all he wants....from the crowd. Stage is different.

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-29-2011, 10:06 AM
I'm gonna come at this from the opposite side of what I was initially saying. I guess you could say it's from the grace side. What if the Lord will use this appearance to:

1. Encourage the people in the congregation with a hymn and the hope that John Legend grew up in the Christian church and hasn't lost his roots. Maybe the fruit has hasn't fully ripened yet, but it's still fruit that he knows his roots and I believe the tree can still continue to grow.

2. If the Holy Spirit is at work in that church and by the size of their congregation, it looks like He is at work in them, then maybe the Holy Spirit will begin to work on John Legend more bringing him to a place in his life that he will begin to make hard decisions. Anything is possible with God. My pastor says don't be playing around with the Holy Ghost, before you know it He'll capture you and you'll be praisin' for real. I think it probably did John some good to do that and we'll see what kind of fruit may bloom from him taking time out of probably a busy day to bless some people with a free performance of a hymn.

3. I'm not going to say anything bad about the church or church leadership and will look at the stop as what God can do with it instead of what He isn't doing with it.

4. Who am I to be critical of someone that knows that the church is their roots. That's a positive statement no matter where he's at in his life.

I'm gonna let this thread be now. God bless.

seal
07-29-2011, 10:33 AM
Yo,

It really just shows to me that the church is trying to take over the Job of the Holy Spirit with all these pragmatic methodologies. "Hopefully if we let the sinner sing and give him a great introduction as "Dope Singer guy" that this will pierce his heart with Faith."

Well so much for that. When does his next album come out? I'm sure he may feel compelled to put a Gospel track at the end. The crazy thing is I'm sure there are people on this board and abroad who will see that as a start or direct influence from this situation.

Grace and Peace,
seal

shekinahsmoke
07-29-2011, 10:44 AM
I see BOTH / AND. to WWW and Spiderman.

Seal thats a good point too :)

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 11:12 AM
Spider, yes in taking you literally. Sorry, but I'm not sure how a pastor allowing JL to sing at a Church metaphorically or figuratively is a reason my celebrities sin or even plays a role. I disagree with you whether you're being literal or not.

In regard to JL salvation, the burden of proof is with you since I've made no claim about JL, you did. I rather say I don't know but you seem to have proof that's he's not saved. What is it?

Concerning praising God in a crowd vs in front of a crowd? Well that's just a line you have drawn, that's not line that the pastor has drawn. I think it will be wrong to look down on another person for not using the same social conventions.

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Sorry, but I'm not sure how a pastor allowing JL to sing at a Church metaphorically or figuratively is a reason my celebrities sin or even plays a role. I disagree with you whether you're being literal or not.

" You need to be saved" Hearing that might be the beginning of the Lord working in them. But as long as you don't challenge them, they will stay the same.

Right now, you are trying to correct people on this board. Why? How does you saying anything play a role in what we believe?



In regard to JL salvation, the burden of proof is with you since I've made no claim about JL, you did. I rather say I don't know but you seem to have proof that's he's not saved. What is it?

What I said before is that I have zero reason to believe he is. He does not even CLAIM to be one. He does not attend a church. He even says "Iím not religious right now" If you hear him talk about religion he clearly has no understanding of the gospel.



Concerning praising God in a crowd vs in front of a crowd? Well that's just a line you have drawn, that's not line that the pastor has drawn. I think it will be wrong to look down on another person for not using the same social conventions.

JL gains nothing from " praising the Lord" and in fact its not praise at all. Real worship is heart worship. He does not love Jesus. He is just being religious. I would not call it worship at all. He was performing.

GloMoGo
07-29-2011, 02:48 PM
What I said before is that I have zero reason to believe he is. He does not even CLAIM to be one. He does not attend a church. He even says "I’m not religious right now" If you hear him talk about religion he clearly has no understanding of the gospel.



JL gains nothing from " praising the Lord" and in fact its not praise at all. Real worship is heart worship. He does not love Jesus. He is just being religious. I would not call it worship at all. He was performing.


Gotta agree.

seal
07-29-2011, 02:49 PM
" You need to be saved" Hearing that might be the beginning of the Lord working in them. But as long as you don't challenge them, they will stay the same.

Right now, you are trying to correct people on this board. Why? How does you saying anything play a role in what we believe?



What I said before is that I have zero reason to believe he is. He does not even CLAIM to be one. He does not attend a church. He even says "Iím not religious right now" If you hear him talk about religion he clearly has no understanding of the gospel.



JL gains nothing from " praising the Lord" and in fact its not praise at all. Real worship is heart worship. He does not love Jesus. He is just being religious. I would not call it worship at all. He was performing.

---->seal stands up and gives solemn applause knodding head in agreement<----

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Something must have happened in me because I have the complete opposite view I had yesterday.

Regarding JL's salvation: If we have received salvation at some point in our lives, the Holy Spirit will reside in us ordering our steps. That being said, something or Someone drew JL back into a church even if it was for 15 to 20 minutes. I used to think I was slowing down on the drinking and smoking on my own. Then I became aware of how God is in control and now I can look back and say He was drawing me closer and doing a work in me even before I had assurance of my salvation. I don't think we can properly judge whether he has salvation or not. We see what the media wants us to see and what he puts out in the media himself. Unless a person is personally walking with another, we don't really know everything about them. Ok, I'm done for now. lol

shekinahsmoke
07-29-2011, 03:10 PM
3DUZ (WWW)

I agree with the drawing part and all we can do is pray. As far as Church and Pastor goes, I still gotta say
http://www.erinjackson.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/cmon_son.jpg

LOL. But all in all, all we can do is pray lol.

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-29-2011, 03:17 PM
I'll have to wait 'til I get home to put on the 900 number and go to town. lol
http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs5/2308101_o.gif

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 03:20 PM
Something must have happened in me because I have the complete opposite view I had yesterday.

Regarding JL's salvation: If we have received salvation at some point in our lives, the Holy Spirit will reside in us ordering our steps. That being said, something or Someone drew JL back into a church even if it was for 15 to 20 minutes. I used to think I was slowing down on the drinking and smoking on my own. Then I became aware of how God is in control and now I can look back and say He was drawing me closer and doing a work in me even before I had assurance of my salvation. I don't think we can properly judge whether he has salvation or not. We see what the media wants us to see and what he puts out in the media himself. Unless a person is personally walking with another, we don't really know everything about them. Ok, I'm done for now. lol


If we have received salvation at some point in our lives, the Holy Spirit will reside in us ordering our steps.

How did you come to that conclusion?


I don't think we can properly judge whether he has salvation or not.

Yes you can. That's a cop out.

Being saved and being drawn by God to be saved are two different things.

It's not both.

shekinahsmoke
07-29-2011, 04:40 PM
How did you come to that conclusion?


Yes you can. That's a cop out.

Being saved and being drawn by God to be saved are two different things.

It's not both.

Im guessing 3dubz knows that. My thought is that at this very second we cant ascertain his salvation. That still doesnt merit him rocking the mic during Sunday Service. I can testify to that, no matter "the anointing". lol. He stated he had Otis w/ Yeezy and Hov on repeat this week.

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-29-2011, 04:49 PM
I guess I've commented too much. Sometimes, I comment one too many times and it confuses things.

Spiderman
07-29-2011, 04:51 PM
Well if we can't know his salvation.....I guess anyone who "likes God" and " goes to a church" is saved. Even tho they WITH THEIR OWN WORDS say "I’m not religious right now" * shrugs* SMH

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-29-2011, 04:57 PM
Well if we can't know his salvation.....I guess anyone who "likes God" and " goes to a church" is saved. Even tho they WITH THEIR OWN WORDS say "I’m not religious right now" * shrugs* SMH

For the record...I do think we can judge a tree by it's fruit and see if God is working in their life. What I'm considering is that there may be a seed beneath the surface that we can't see and when the tree has grown some, then we can fully judge it by the fruit it produces. Just because someone says they like God doesn't mean they are saved. Going to church doesn't do it either. We fully agree there. I guess, I'm just choosing not to determine if he's saved or not.

jeyjey34
07-29-2011, 05:02 PM
4. Who am I to be critical of someone that knows that the church is their roots. That's a positive statement no matter where he's at in his life.

Yes it's "positive", but does the "church" give you any eternal value or does a relationship with God?

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-29-2011, 05:03 PM
Yes it's "positive", but does the "church" give you any eternal value or does a relationship with God?

Relationship with God

jeyjey34
07-29-2011, 05:07 PM
Relationship with God

It was a rhetorical question. lol I wanted you to address your comment that I quoted.

Water Walkin' Warrior
07-29-2011, 05:17 PM
I'm just trying not to be too judgmental and would like to err on the side of grace instead of the condemnation. Just saying it's a plus that he grew up in church and knows that's his roots. I've planted many seeds in the young people at our church. Will some fall away? Maybe, but the seeds are there and that's what's important to us as human beings. We can let God water them and do the growing. I'm sure some older saints and youth leaders sowed seeds when JL was younger. Maybe they'll produce something beautiful in the right season if God decides to grow them up.

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 06:32 PM
Spider ok, now I got your reasoning about him being not saved. If that's true bout him, then I agree. I wanted to hear more than just he's a secular artist who's done some bad songs. I agree bro. Thata enough to view him as an unbeliever. However, my position bout the Church still stands.

jeyjey34
07-29-2011, 07:28 PM
Hey Cruz, I was re-reading through the thread and you saw you say that if you were a pastor, you wouldn't invite John Legend to sing at your church because


that's not my steeze.

Can you elaborate and explain what your "steeze" would be if you were a pastor?

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 07:39 PM
Sure Jey, I'm not into big names. I believe in internal use of Church members.

jeyjey34
07-29-2011, 07:52 PM
Sure Jey, I'm not into big names. I believe in internal use of Church members.

That's it? It has nothing to do with the perception of a person based on what they do for a living like in the case of John Legend?

HigherThought
07-29-2011, 09:23 PM
That's it? It has nothing to do with the perception of a person based on what they do for a living like in the case of John Legend?

No, it depends on whavi know about the person's life. From what Spider clarified, o personally would not feel comfortable.