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The Light Within
10-29-2010, 08:54 PM
I received an email after I sent one of my family members this video. It's from Ravi Zacharias and it's three minutes long. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6m93JfCe8&NR=1

Before reading this one needs to know that this particular family member was a "christian" for many many years and went to church on a regular basis, they are now into who knows what....

After having numerous conversations with them about the bible, holiness, idolatry and serving self, I don't even know how to respond anymore :(

Hey Jordan,

There is the basic idea of loving your neighbor as you love yourself, which I still believe in. What comes first though, it is loving oneself for in loving oneself wholly, then one can actually love their neighbor. Wholly is the key word - where it tells me to know myself well and to be intimately acquainted with (sound like funny words because of course, we can be intimate with ourselves), but to really know the insides of us, what makes us tick, what inspires us, how we commune with God, what tempts us because of lack of understanding, all of that. It is in that knowledge, we can then love our neighbors well, with all the care, understanding, and support that they need. To me, the downside of religion is judgment and it all starts with judgment of the self. There is nothing wrong with self. Nothing. Even the New Age movement says there is something wrong with self. In my estimation, we have all missed the boat by doing that. Judgment brings guilt or vice-versa, which brings compartmentalization of our souls and spirit possibly, and we are then always peeking around a corner just to see if things are safe and if it's not in our eyes of judgement, then we try to cover up, or safe face, or run away, etc. There's no need for that kind of behaviour, as it does not help anybody. If we could truly live from the heart without thinking about it too much, at least for me, that has become my goal. Another way to put it, is living from the heart is to live from pure motives all the time.

The YouTube you sent was kinda cute, but the fellow is missing the point. He starts it out by saying what Dawkins thought of God, and Dawkins went to describe the God of the Old Testament - well, that's what most people who believe in God, believe in - is the God of the Old Testament, and Dawkins brought up very good points for people to think about - that kind of God is described as selfish, wanting worship, killing many people, etc. For Zacharias, he does say if mankind created that kind of God, then what can we say for mankind? He's on the right track yet not thinking it through. From the little I've studied, mankind "was" the originator of the Old Testament, the Bible really. The basic premise of Christianity and most religions is that there is something wrong with man - in Christianity's case, sin. From what I know inside, if God made man, then man is perfect. It really does not make common sense to me to say that God made something, and he made it with flaws [yeah, whatever that is supposed to mean]. To me, that is such a simple concept, and then when looking at the Old Testament (and the New Testament), how does it read - that God is not happy with his creation and therefore punishes it, that it can never be clean in his eyes - yet he made it. That is the God I don't believe in either. To be honest of what God I do believe in, I don't know, but it is certainly not the God of the Old Testament.

Seemingly off topic, but a movie I think I may want to see is a very old one, called Metropolis. Would you want to watch it together? Supposedly, it was made "by the elite of the world for the elite of the world", but it speaks of the psyche of the masses and how the elite plays on that. For myself, there may be some clues as to seeing my and others' "insides" better, for lack of a better word, and be another way of teaching patience and kindness.

Where do I go from here?

Trey.Dub
10-29-2010, 09:05 PM
Hmmm... another one thats serving a false trinitarian god: god the me, god myself and god the I.

Just keep praying 4 her bro, she seems set in his own beliefs. Only God can penetrate such a hard shell.


(P.S. God doesnt need her permission either. If God is pleased to soften your Aunt's heart, then He will. Keep praying tho)

elboogietheservant
10-29-2010, 09:21 PM
Agreed... Pray for dude (I´m sure you have been).

I don´t understand his points- they seem to go all over the place. Talking with these types of people always frustrates me because .... I feel like Im getting lost in their laberynth of confusion. I try to keep the conversation to one point at a time.

The Light Within
10-29-2010, 09:22 PM
It was my Aunt who wrote the message (so I re-edited the letter in pink) She said she will never go back to where I am now, never.

eve
10-29-2010, 09:23 PM
It really does not make common sense to me to say that God made something, and he made it with flaws [yeah, whatever that is supposed to mean]. To me, that is such a simple concept, and then when looking at the Old Testament (and the New Testament), how does it read - that God is not happy with his creation and therefore punishes it, that it can never be clean in his eyes - yet he made it. That is the God I don't believe in either. To be honest of what God I do believe in, I don't know, but it is certainly not the God of the Old Testament.



sure this guy is concocting a god of his own imagination, but he would say the same of believers.

i think his above statement is worth answering directly. truth doesn't fear investigation. how would you guys address his issue directly: not his personal flaws, but the question in and of itself?

if we attack the concept and not the mindset, i think this thread will be very productive.

The Light Within
10-29-2010, 09:29 PM
if we attack the concept and not the mindset, i think this thread will be very productive.

I have many times, so if anyone here can give me an answer worth bringing to her by all means please try!

Moody
10-29-2010, 09:43 PM
My advice is to respond in love and don't try to "fix" her... continue to commit that to the Holy Spirit. When people have made decisions like these, only God can get through to them. God may chose to do that through you... He may not, but no matter what, you need to be loving in your response and approach. Kindly point out where you disagree, then spend more time pointing out where she may have made a valid (err, semi-valid) point and use that as an opportunity to tie it back to the Word. That way you take out the confrontation and start to build on something.

For instance, I would concentrate on the following:

If we could truly live from the heart without thinking about it too much, at least for me, that has become my goal. Another way to put it, is living from the heart is to live from pure motives all the time.

While what she is saying is "blah", you could relate this back to Scripture and show how the Bible also speaks about living in a manner where your motives are genuine and without deceit, slander, etc,. A lot of good verses in Proverbs that deal with these things. I would build on that.

Many times we want to bash someone over the head and put them on blast... but I have NEVER seen that be effective in witnessing. NEVER. Even when the basher is 100% right and the one being bashed is 100% wrong. Gotta do it in love and with wisdom. That reminds me... continue to pray and ask God to give you wisdom in talking with your Aunt. He will give it to you.

djnoyze
10-30-2010, 12:18 AM
One of the best ways I've found to interact with difficult people is 1. Don't try to change their mind for real. You can't change their mind. Only God, His Word, and them can change their mind. 2. Speak the Word only. If you want to say something that you think is a principle in the bible, just quote the scripture. Let God/Holy Spirit speak for you. He's using you anyway, so let Him give you the Words to say. 3. Ask questions to cause them to think about what they just said.

I would ask her, does she believe that her God made the earth? Is the earth always perfect? Are their any men on death row who are perfect? If her God DID make perfect men, what happened to cause them to kill one another. (Sometimes I wish I knew why people were so quick to forget about Satan the devil...)

I want to ask her what has she studied that told her that men wrote the bible out of their own will and initiative? I'd like to see that myself!

Technically, when she talks about "living out of the heart", that's something that Christians SHOULD be doing, so don't try to combat her on that, in fact, I would agree with her by saying, YES, Jesus said, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All [of the stuff we read in the old testament, hinge on these] two commandments.” —Matthew 22:37–40 NET [edited]

Always start by finding commonality...

And most importantly, “the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” —2 Timothy 2:24–26 KJV

Actually, that's what I said at first, without really thinking about it. If you do it right, your aunt may recover herself out of the snare of the devil...

thePeculiar
10-30-2010, 01:58 AM
So ... does your aunt believe that she is perfect?

The Light Within
10-30-2010, 02:43 AM
DJ I will go and ask her these questions. I sent her this.

Few questions. Do you believe that your God made the earth? Is the earth always perfect? Are there any men on death row who are perfect? If your God DID make perfect men, what happened to cause them to kill one another. (Sometimes I wish I knew why people were so quick to forget about Satan the devil...) Are you yourself perfect?

What have you studied that told you that men wrote the bible out of their own will and initiative?

I do agree when you talk about the heart because Jesus said, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All [of the stuff we read in the old testament, hinge on these] two commandments.” —Matthew 22:37–40

Time to go about this a different way...

BlackCalvinist
10-30-2010, 02:45 AM
i think his above statement is worth answering directly. t

Unfortunately, the answer that deals with this isn't one that most human beings like to hear.

Isaiah 45:9 "Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?'
or 'Your work has no handles'?

Jeremiah 18:4And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. 5Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Romans 9:18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

God is God. He owes no one anything. All lives are his (Ezekiel 18) and He has a right to do with His creation as He pleases and does no one wrong in doing so.

Thankfully, her conversion doesn't depend on you.

A few direct points:

It really does not make common sense to me to say that God made something, and he made it with flaws [yeah, whatever that is supposed to mean]. To me,

Error #1 - she assumes herself to be right and speaks quite arrogantly. The user above me asked the correct question that you should ask her....is she perfect ? Sometimes, folk don't see it because they couch it in nice terms that seem to be 'humble' when in fact, all they are is 'proud of their humility'.


and then when looking at the Old Testament (and the New Testament), how does it read - that God is not happy with his creation and therefore punishes it, that it can never be clean in his eyes - yet he made it.

Error #2 - she completely misrepresents the Old Testament here. Isaiah 65-66 and many of the Messianic Psalms go straight counter to her 'that it can never be clean' statement. Psalm 19, 145, Genesis 1 all go counter to her statements as well. What you will do well to do is go into the scriptures and show her her errors on these points.

Shock~Therapy
10-30-2010, 07:55 AM
Ditto to what Kerry said. Your family member is basing their argument on faulty arguments. You can directly address those faulty points with them but just realize that the conversation could go on and on with constant debate if they don't want to receive the truth of scripture. So it will require you being longsuffering towards them. You have my prayers bro.

Donald Chavis
10-30-2010, 09:43 AM
I received an email after I sent one of my family members this video. It's from Ravi Zacharias and it's three minutes long. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6m93JfCe8&NR=1

Before reading this one needs to know that this particular family member was a "christian" for many many years and went to church on a regular basis, they are now into who knows what....

After having numerous conversations with them about the bible, holiness, idolatry and serving self, I don't even know how to respond anymore :(

Hey Jordan,

There is the basic idea of loving your neighbor as you love yourself, which I still believe in. What comes first though, it is loving oneself for in loving oneself wholly, then one can actually love their neighbor. Wholly is the key word - where it tells me to know myself well and to be intimately acquainted with (sound like funny words because of course, we can be intimate with ourselves), but to really know the insides of us, what makes us tick, what inspires us, how we commune with God, what tempts us because of lack of understanding, all of that. It is in that knowledge, we can then love our neighbors well, with all the care, understanding, and support that they need. To me, the downside of religion is judgment and it all starts with judgment of the self. There is nothing wrong with self. Nothing. Even the New Age movement says there is something wrong with self. In my estimation, we have all missed the boat by doing that. Judgment brings guilt or vice-versa, which brings compartmentalization of our souls and spirit possibly, and we are then always peeking around a corner just to see if things are safe and if it's not in our eyes of judgement, then we try to cover up, or safe face, or run away, etc. There's no need for that kind of behaviour, as it does not help anybody. If we could truly live from the heart without thinking about it too much, at least for me, that has become my goal. Another way to put it, is living from the heart is to live from pure motives all the time.

The YouTube you sent was kinda cute, but the fellow is missing the point. He starts it out by saying what Dawkins thought of God, and Dawkins went to describe the God of the Old Testament - well, that's what most people who believe in God, believe in - is the God of the Old Testament, and Dawkins brought up very good points for people to think about - that kind of God is described as selfish, wanting worship, killing many people, etc. For Zacharias, he does say if mankind created that kind of God, then what can we say for mankind? He's on the right track yet not thinking it through. From the little I've studied, mankind "was" the originator of the Old Testament, the Bible really. The basic premise of Christianity and most religions is that there is something wrong with man - in Christianity's case, sin. From what I know inside, if God made man, then man is perfect. It really does not make common sense to me to say that God made something, and he made it with flaws [yeah, whatever that is supposed to mean]. To me, that is such a simple concept, and then when looking at the Old Testament (and the New Testament), how does it read - that God is not happy with his creation and therefore punishes it, that it can never be clean in his eyes - yet he made it. That is the God I don't believe in either. To be honest of what God I do believe in, I don't know, but it is certainly not the God of the Old Testament.

Seemingly off topic, but a movie I think I may want to see is a very old one, called Metropolis. Would you want to watch it together? Supposedly, it was made "by the elite of the world for the elite of the world", but it speaks of the psyche of the masses and how the elite plays on that. For myself, there may be some clues as to seeing my and others' "insides" better, for lack of a better word, and be another way of teaching patience and kindness.

Where do I go from here?

She ain't saying it, but she deals with this as well... Which is proof His law is written in her heart. And all that "meaness" she see's in the old testament is meant to bring her too God... but she chooses to rebel! That's what I would've said!! Questioning God is only apart of the rebellion... If she can deny Him or "call Him out" she doesn't have to answer to Him... I'd ignore all that unless she was persistant on it! You said she use to be a christian... She's not going to totally deny God, she just trying to justify not having to answer to Him! I'd remind her of where she came from... Asking her what was her whole christian experience about then..? Was it fake as well...? You not being calvinist should make this easy to do...;)

Trey.Dub
10-30-2010, 11:38 AM
You said she use to be a christian... She's not going to totally deny God, she just trying to justify not having to answer to Him! I'd remind her of where she came from... Asking her what was her whole christian experience about then..? Was it fake as well...? You not being calvinist should make this easy to do...;)

Light_Within I thought you believed in Eternal Security? If she has "accepted Christ into her heart" then according to your theology her decision has saved her for all eternity. Right?

The Light Within
10-30-2010, 12:35 PM
Light_Within I thought you believed in Eternal Security? If she has "accepted Christ into her heart" then according to your theology her decision has saved her for all eternity. Right?

No, I don't believe that exactly. I do read where ones faith can be shipwrecked but I also lean towards one never really being saved to begin with especially when I start seeing this. Either way, I don't like playing God.

My mother is getting into this stuff, my auntie and a few more family members are as well. It's spreading. It's like they've been Christians for so long and they've been so sheltered that they need to go seeking elsewhere. She led a "christian" life for many years but has of late been getting into weird strange nonsense that I can see right through.

thePeculiar
10-30-2010, 01:15 PM
No, I don't believe that exactly. I do read where ones faith can be shipwrecked but I also lean towards one never really being saved to begin with especially when I start seeing this. Either way, I don't like playing God.

My mother is getting into this stuff, my auntie and a few more family members are as well. It's spreading. It's like they've been Christians for so long and they've been so sheltered that they need to go seeking elsewhere. She led a "christian" life for many years but has of late been getting into weird strange nonsense that I can see right through.

That's extremely dangerous, to reject God after you've known Him for so long.

Did anything happen in her life that caused her to feel this way about Christianity? Is she currently going through something? From woman to woman, such a strong decision and turn-around is almost always linked to something emotional. I would bypass this intellectual argument and ask questions to identify the true condition of her heart. And through God, show her the love she may have been void of for some reason during her time as a Christian.

But keep it in prayer and be led by the Spirit. I'll mention you in my prayers as well.

Lynaz24
11-01-2010, 11:07 AM
I received an email after I sent one of my family members this video. It's from Ravi Zacharias and it's three minutes long. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6m93JfCe8&NR=1

Before reading this one needs to know that this particular family member was a "christian" for many many years and went to church on a regular basis, they are now into who knows what....

After having numerous conversations with them about the bible, holiness, idolatry and serving self, I don't even know how to respond anymore :(

Hey Jordan,

There is the basic idea of loving your neighbor as you love yourself, which I still believe in. What comes first though, it is loving oneself for in loving oneself wholly, then one can actually love their neighbor. Wholly is the key word - where it tells me to know myself well and to be intimately acquainted with (sound like funny words because of course, we can be intimate with ourselves), but to really know the insides of us, what makes us tick, what inspires us, how we commune with God, what tempts us because of lack of understanding, all of that. It is in that knowledge, we can then love our neighbors well, with all the care, understanding, and support that they need. To me, the downside of religion is judgment and it all starts with judgment of the self. There is nothing wrong with self. Nothing. Even the New Age movement says there is something wrong with self. In my estimation, we have all missed the boat by doing that. Judgment brings guilt or vice-versa, which brings compartmentalization of our souls and spirit possibly, and we are then always peeking around a corner just to see if things are safe and if it's not in our eyes of judgement, then we try to cover up, or safe face, or run away, etc. There's no need for that kind of behaviour, as it does not help anybody. If we could truly live from the heart without thinking about it too much, at least for me, that has become my goal. Another way to put it, is living from the heart is to live from pure motives all the time.

The YouTube you sent was kinda cute, but the fellow is missing the point. He starts it out by saying what Dawkins thought of God, and Dawkins went to describe the God of the Old Testament - well, that's what most people who believe in God, believe in - is the God of the Old Testament, and Dawkins brought up very good points for people to think about - that kind of God is described as selfish, wanting worship, killing many people, etc. For Zacharias, he does say if mankind created that kind of God, then what can we say for mankind? He's on the right track yet not thinking it through. From the little I've studied, mankind "was" the originator of the Old Testament, the Bible really. The basic premise of Christianity and most religions is that there is something wrong with man - in Christianity's case, sin. From what I know inside, if God made man, then man is perfect. It really does not make common sense to me to say that God made something, and he made it with flaws [yeah, whatever that is supposed to mean]. To me, that is such a simple concept, and then when looking at the Old Testament (and the New Testament), how does it read - that God is not happy with his creation and therefore punishes it, that it can never be clean in his eyes - yet he made it. That is the God I don't believe in either. To be honest of what God I do believe in, I don't know, but it is certainly not the God of the Old Testament.

Seemingly off topic, but a movie I think I may want to see is a very old one, called Metropolis. Would you want to watch it together? Supposedly, it was made "by the elite of the world for the elite of the world", but it speaks of the psyche of the masses and how the elite plays on that. For myself, there may be some clues as to seeing my and others' "insides" better, for lack of a better word, and be another way of teaching patience and kindness.

Where do I go from here?

Metropolis is a very good movie..Saw it in my Sociology class.

The Light Within
11-02-2010, 04:52 PM
Here is her response with the questions I posted from the posters here!

Hi Jordan,

I'm sure you know, that whatever we believe, that Truth can stand on its own, hey? It doesn't need explaining or justifying, it just always is. I actually find that comforting. But I'll try to answer your questions to where I'm at, at this moment.

1. Yes, I think God created this world and everything in it. Science actually shows it very well, that there is so much intricacy and wonder in the creation, there has to be an initiator of it all. One example is the little I know of the physical body, is that one part tells the story of the rest of the body. Whether it be the study of iridology, or acupuncture, or the spine, and more areas too I'm sure, all the parts are inter-related and show the same picture. Neat, I think. Another example in physics, it has been proven that one thing can exist in more than one place at the same time, thereby showing the multi-dimensional world we live in. To me, that's just amazing though I don't fully understand the ramifications of such a truth; it's neat to contemplate it.

2. I think we should watch what meaning we put on the word "perfect". For example, we have been brought up to think that perfect is always "good", and then "good" is ultimately what we say it should be - and of course, when dealing with the millions and billions of opinions out there, how can we say what "good" is then? I do believe in the ultimate good and perfect good so to speak for the world's sake/God's sake, but can we tap into that in any given moment. I believe it's possible, though I still struggle with that. To me, the answer would rely on being at total peace and not forcing any anything. I guess, it's again tapping into the idea of Truth just always is, and then being receptive to it. You ask, is the earth "perfect", or even the world for that matter. I have to believe it is, in the sense that it's exactly where it should be at any given moment. Do I get frustrated, a big YES on that question. But that doesn't change what is ultimately supposed to happen. I think about it this way, does God come out of heaven to change anything just because we get frustrated or even with "evil" present in the world. He doesn't and we really need to ask the question, why. I believe part of the answer is because we are responsible for what is going on, in this world. But like we have talked about, love your neighbour as you love yourself. The chaos in the world is going on because we are trying to change our neighbour or "loving" them to change them :) Rather, we can love on ourselves to be patient and understanding with our stuff as we have alot to deal with, and only then, can we even be helpful to anyone else. Then, I suppose, if we have anything to offer, people would come our way rather than us trying to "save the world". I have learned that lesson in the past, and yes, still have to relearn it in different ways even today. So to end this particular question, yes, the world is perfect and where it should be right now even though Kathy gets frustrated with it at different times.

3. Sure, that's a hard question. Maybe one way to answer this question, is how I think law should be applied in the world -- and to be honest, I don't even know fully what that means -- but one example is this. Take the hard criminals off of the streets and put them in a place where someone(s) can love on them. The term, "tough love" may or may not be applicable here, but can we have a world where everyone is helping one another, so in this case being there for the criminal (a label), helping to feed them, listen to them, or even let them be alone for awhile, but never being judgmental. Is it possible. I think it is, but we need a radical change in the world system, actually a tearing down of the present system to set up something new. I'm not sure you can get my grasp here, but of course, we don't have to let people run free in the streets if they are going to hurt others who are not able to deal with those people's behaviour. We also need to remember that people are not born criminals, though some may be born with really challenged mental capacity and we need to be sensitive to that. Right now, we have a world where we are only looking after ourselves selfishly (I'll explain that thought in a bit) and not thinking of anyone else. This idea has been exponentially causing more pain in the world, therefore the different kinds of political systems/regimes we are putting ourselves under. Capitalism, for example, makes us feel that we should work hard and therefore can be paid higher wages than the next guy, and also have the right to play harder than the next guy because of it. Communism and socialism are fine in the sense of everyone being truly equal and deserving of respect - however, they are forced ideas on the masses in certain parts of the world, which become extremely tainted versions of the Truth. Love and acts of love should NEVER be legislated. Love should come freely from the heart. Hope I kinda answered your question there.

4. Again, touching on my idea from the last email - how can God make anything un-perfect and why would there ever be a need to do so? I really can't believe in that kind of God. Now, is our world in alot of chaos - as touched on briefly earlier in this note to you, a definite yes to that question. But maybe that is what it's "supposed" to be, that if we do not love on ourselves and others and grow in what that means, then it is supposed to be a world of chaos. Now, do I believe that the Old Testament God is the real God? No, I don't. Firstly, my heart says it can't be because a God worthy of respect would never treat his creation like that. Ever. But there are books out there that do teach how the Bible has come to be, and if you wish, I can try to find some of those authors for you. One to mention is Bishop Spong - he has newsletters by the way that come out every week or so, where a person asks him a question, and he has some very interesting answers. Very different from the usual orthodox or fundamentalist types of belief. I don't agree with everything he says, but he can certainly pose different ways of thinking. You may be shocked at this, but there is a view that the God of the Old Testament, for lack of a better word, was Satan. Just let that thought settle in your mind for a moment, and just think, if Satan "is the author of confusion", doesn't that fit the Old Testament God very well? The Old Testament God was very judgemental, made people kill one another, killed people "Himself", had a "chosen" people where others were excluded, ultimately judged people eternally for just making a bad decision (Adam and Eve) and from that too, He judged all to be condemned just because of Adam and Eve's lack of judgement. Really, if we had all wisdom on a matter, would we ever make a "wrong" decision, of course not. Then, somewhere we need understanding and patience with ourselves and the world and then in a given situation, if we have all the understanding we need, or even if we don't, but we have pure motives from the heart, that gives out the right spirit into the situation - at least I believe that. Enough said, I suppose on this point :)

5. Is Kathy perfect. Laugh. Many times, I feel I am not, or again, can be very frustrated. But using the above points as ideas into my thinking, then yes I am perfect whether I feel like it or not. I can say, that the less I think about my supposed flaws, etc., then I don't have to think about whether I am perfect or not. I just am then. And then I don't have to think about trying to save myself from anything or anyone else. It really has been pounded into me so to speak, about not trying to save anyone in the world. Who am I to do so? Yes, I can get very frustrated, and yes frustrated at God too, but that doesn't do anything. Can we get involved in activities where we can be a help to the world? Of course, but to each their own when they are working out that question for themselves. We can only judge our own motives. To me, the ultimate place to be is being very patient with myself and therefore with the world so I can just be in a place of support. Big task, at least for me.

The summary of this email, I think, is that we all need to un-learn this system of judgement in our lives and political systems, religions, everything really. Can we come from a place of real peace and patience. I believe and hope so. Love never forces anything and never sacrifices anything either. If it ever gives, it's from a heart that is already full, so that when it gives, it's supportive so that it can never feel resentful down the road. Yes, these are big ideals, but it's my goal; and I do know one thing, that the world "isn't working" the way we have dreamed it up so far, so why can't we try something different then?

Kathy.

The Light Within
11-02-2010, 06:53 PM
DJnoize I asked her the questions you posted here and this is the response she gave me. I'm not sure who is going to deal with the above response from her, but it sure will be a challenge. What an e-mail I must say though, it sure will spark some thought even from the usual posters here.