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zacchaeus
11-30-2000, 12:13 PM
Leonard Ravenhill's thoughts on Knowing vs. Experience

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP5R0v93nIo

C-dero
11-15-2007, 03:26 PM
More and more you are seeing the shackles of the enlightenment movement loosening up the zeitgeist of our times. However, you still see its influences around and it seems strong on this board. Criticizing one's preaching because it is not expository or because it is not comprehensive are all traces of the enlightenment spirit among us. We see it in how people argue against other's interpretations of scripture. There even seems to a bit of it in how people view charismatic Christians who may not demonstrated the scholasticism of their presbyterian fam but they sure get their worship on.

It seems to me that many put a premium on rightfully knowing as if that was evidence of conversion. On the contrary, without an experience of God's truth in our lives, can we say that we are really children in God's family? What are your thoughts?

Lynaz24
11-15-2007, 03:33 PM
I think your gonna get alot of puzzled faces unless you reword this passage to be less college professor friendly..lol

Gloria
11-15-2007, 03:48 PM
More and more you are seeing the shackles of the enlightenment movement loosening up the zeitgeist of our times. However, you still see its influences around and it seems strong on this board. Criticizing one's preaching because it is not expository or because it is not comprehensive are all traces of the enlightenment spirit among us. We see it in how people argue against other's interpretations of scripture. There even seems to a bit of it in how people view charismatic Christians who may not demonstrated the scholasticism of their presbyterian fam but they sure get their worship on.

It seems to me that many put a premium on rightfully knowing as if that was evidence of conversion. On the contrary, without an experience of God's truth in our lives, can we say that we are really children in God's family? What are your thoughts?

My first thought honestly is that you're doing way too much with the vocabulary. You lost me at "zeitgeist." When I began reading this my second thought was "I'm too stupid to comment or answer any questions presented in this post." :spinny::jimlad:

You seem to be saying that people seem to put too much stock in "right" or "sound" doctrine while putting too little in experience. You seem to be attributing this fixation on the enlightenment movement. You seem to be asking a question that has been asked one million times over---Does an understanding of "right" or "sound" doctrine save men? My answer to that is no but it's still important. I also think that "experience of God's truth" should be defined since you've seemed to drawn a specific comparison between charismatics and presbyterians.

Deadmanwalking
11-15-2007, 03:50 PM
Check the first chapter of James. Faith without works is dead....and if we're saved by faith, and works is the evidence of that saving faith, then i'm led to believe that works (experience) are more important than head knowledge.

I'll leave it at this for now. But I hear you Cruz. i've been a big fan of your recent posts bro. Very encouraging and challenging as well. Keep digging for that truth bro.


1

eve
11-15-2007, 03:50 PM
More and more you are seeing the shackles of the enlightenment movement loosening up the zeitgeist of our times. However, you still see its influences around and it seems strong on this board. Criticizing one's preaching because it is not expository or because it is not comprehensive are all traces of the enlightenment spirit among us. We see it in how people argue against other's interpretations of scripture. There even seems to a bit of it in how people view charismatic Christians who may not demonstrated the scholasticism of their presbyterian fam but they sure get their worship on.

It seems to me that many put a premium on rightfully knowing as if that was evidence of conversion. On the contrary, without an experience of God's truth in our lives, can we say that we are really children in God's family? What are your thoughts?

i disagree that the enlightenment prompts zeal for proper exegetical treatment of scripture, bro. i would say, though, that the spirit of the enlightenment does prompt the relativism that creates unbiblical "christians" and "post christian" agnostics.

eve
11-15-2007, 03:56 PM
Check the first chapter of James. Faith without works is dead....and if we're saved by faith, and works is the evidence of that saving faith, then i'm led to believe that works (experience) are more important than head knowledge.


your comment appears to say works is more imporatant than faith. correct me if not.

if that's what you're saying: what good, then, is the works without the faith?

the "Lord, Lord" people will have works. but they'll end up in outer darkness where there'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

where does scripture show works is synonomous with experience?

if works is better than head knowledge, what is works based on?

(sorry for the rapid fire questions!)

clayfilms
11-15-2007, 03:56 PM
i feel u cruz but ..i had to..i'm sorry..runs screaming out of thread

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2681989

Dre
11-15-2007, 04:02 PM
i feel u cruz but ..i had to..i'm sorry..runs screaming out of thread

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2681989

:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

Deadmanwalking
11-15-2007, 04:21 PM
your comment appears to say works is more imporatant than faith. correct me if not.

if that's what you're saying: what good, then, is the works without the faith?

the "Lord, Lord" people will have works. but they'll end up in outer darkness where there'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

where does scripture show works is synonomous with experience?

if works is better than head knowledge, what is works based on?

(sorry for the rapid fire questions!)

That's why I said to read the first chapter of James. He goes on to say, "what good is your faith without works?" And "can such a faith save a man" and (paraphrased) "what good is it for me to tell a man be filled and be clothed but do neither?"

Not to imply that we're saved by works, but that by the example of our biblical brethren, it's much more important to practice what you preach than to preach alone. David was a man after GOD's own heart and pharisees with their strong book knowledge were brood of vipers. See what I'm saying? Book knowledge is good, and I hunger for truth, and I read and I study, but the point I'm making is that it's more important to act it out than to just learn and discuss.

Sorry, I forgot what the orig post was about and why I used that point as my answer, but that was my point. Oh, okay, I remember. Experience. The reason I use works to parallel experience, even though they are not synonomous, is because you would have to have had an experience with Christ to have works manifest from your faith. So, in my opinion, while the unfettered word MUST be the foundation of one's faith, experience (used in the context of acting it out) is superior to book knowledge alone.

But the source of one's works/experience must be the WORD. I just want to put emphasis on that point since it's key to my stance.

I know that was terribly wordy. Sorry. Hope that explains my stance...if not, I'll reattempt, but it may be another 300 words. :chatterbox:

zacchaeus
11-15-2007, 04:27 PM
i don't think there's a difference between scholarship of Scripture and the experience of worship or living in His grace. firstly, salvation comes from hearing the Word of God and putting faith in Christ. the saving grace is of God by the Holy Spirit, not we of ourselves or mere works should we boast. the two actually go hand in hand (learning and experience). in fact, once the experience of giving your life to Christ has come and the newness of it matures, it should lead to a hunger for more of His Word. some study more than others and go into deeper theology, but that doesn't deny or discard the simple longing and worship of God. but we must be careful that the experience is not simply of itself, devoid of Scripture. how will someone know to repent from sin if they know not what sin is or what repentance is? how will they know who to repent to if know not of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross? how will they understand they are secure in their faith, if you don't study about justification? people will have questions (or should have questions) about this walk and studying the Word will bring about clarification, so we won't (or shouldn't) have these arbitrary questions that should be answered by Scripture (like is masturbation a sin, if me and a girl have a baby should we marry, can i be gay and Christian and it be ok). we need more study and wisdom and that's only through reading and understanding of His Word. we will have eternity to get our praise on, but the Word must be presented foremost, for that's the only "tool" that can save souls. and to reiterate and clarify, if you have given your life to Christ the fruits will flow, the outward signs of exaltation and praise will flow and people will see them and know whom you serve. but most importantly, you will know more about this glorious God and will be free to worship Him even more, for you would have learned how depraved we are and how holy He is. that's my view on it all. grace and peace

BondServant
11-15-2007, 05:08 PM
It seems to me that many put a premium on rightfully knowing as if that was evidence of conversion. On the contrary, without an experience of God's truth in our lives, can we say that we are really children in God's family? What are your thoughts?

What does that experience look like? And how do you "know"?

C-dero
11-15-2007, 07:23 PM
i disagree that the enlightenment prompts zeal for proper exegetical treatment of scripture, bro. i would say, though, that the spirit of the enlightenment does prompt the relativism that creates unbiblical "christians" and "post christian" agnostics.

Oh yes! Enlightenment or modernity is characterized by achieving exactness and achieving ultimates hence science has been placed up high on the pedistals of epistemology. However, it is this post-modern age, although there are different versions of it, that breeds relativism. In any case, the enlightenment era's influence is loosening its hold on culture and as a result, monopolistic attitudes are being exposed which often time shows up in Christianity. This is not to say that there is no absolute truth.

eve
11-15-2007, 07:39 PM
This is not to say that there is no absolute truth.

yes it does, 1975-mate.

unless you can explain how, according to your enlightenment-doesn't-breed-relativism view, that there is absolute truth.

looks like that ideology is in as much conflict as World War IV.

:tongue:

Redeemed
11-15-2007, 07:48 PM
Christians are to be and must intentionally exercise themselves to be people of TRUTH. Being such (people of truth, that is) exactness of biblical truth in teaching and fidelity in living are concommitant. Its not an either or situation, there must be both present. Truth is unmistakeably consistent with the character of God, walks in harmony with the will of God, and reverently ascribes glory to God. We cannot claim piety or progressive openmindedness and use imprecise ambiguous language as we teach truth. Further, we cannot claim to be teaching with a spirit of veracity when our living and dealings with others is shoddy.

So it's knowing & living (I prefer that over experience)...the teacher in error should be rebuked and faulty practical Christian living should be rebuked.

Take heed to yourself and your doctrine brethren.

Grace & Peace

Redeemed

I Timothy 4:16; II Timothy 3:16, 17; Titus 2:1

C-dero
11-27-2007, 09:01 AM
yes it does, 1975-mate.

unless you can explain how, according to your enlightenment-doesn't-breed-relativism view, that there is absolute truth.

looks like that ideology is in as much conflict as World War IV.

:tongue:

Eve, do your homework.

Fact: The enlightenment was about absolutes, arriving at truth....

Fact: Post-modernity is the antithesis of the enlightenment...the denial of arriving at any absolutes ( at least this is one version of post-modernity).

daveski
11-27-2007, 12:35 PM
Cruz,

I don't know if it is so much an enlightenment spirit as it is a desire for objective truth to ring loudly from pulpits - a God given charge. Maybe the criticism stems from the frustration at the gross amount of watered down preaching and defamation in the pulpits. We all are called to contend for truth, no matter how un-PC that is, especially in our times.

Now when we speak on matters of subjectivity, we have to be careful not to gauge God or truth solely by our emotions or experiences. Since we all are fallible, we must measure our emotions and experiences against God's infallible Word. Truth has to be foundational. For without truth, we can't worship or respond to God (John 4:6-24) or bring our lives into alignment with His will. So it is good and necessary to labor and dig for the richness of God in His Word. Personally speaking, the more I study God's objective Word and see His character, the more I am changed subjectively. My mind is renewed and transformed by the Word, which has a real effect on my emotions, my will and my actions. As Jesus said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important commandment." (Matthew 22:37-38).

I don't agree that we should put a premium on scholastic faith over a tangible faith evidenced by a changed life. But we also can't minimize the importance of objective truth.

Doctrine - Doxology - Disciple

d.

StreetSermonz
11-27-2007, 12:48 PM
More and more you are seeing the shackles of the enlightenment movement loosening up the zeitgeist of our times. However, you still see its influences around and it seems strong on this board. Criticizing one's preaching because it is not expository or because it is not comprehensive are all traces of the enlightenment spirit among us. We see it in how people argue against other's interpretations of scripture. There even seems to a bit of it in how people view charismatic Christians who may not demonstrated the scholasticism of their presbyterian fam but they sure get their worship on.

It seems to me that many put a premium on rightfully knowing as if that was evidence of conversion. On the contrary, without an experience of God's truth in our lives, can we say that we are really children in God's family? What are your thoughts?
I agree. There has to be a balance of both knowing the Truth and experiencing (living as Redeemed puts it) the Truth.

btate0121
11-27-2007, 01:03 PM
folks drank kool-aid cuz they had an experience man. get with that TRUTH. feelings have nothing to do with anything. experience has nothing to do with it. TRUTH opens eyes man. this seems a bit relativistic to me. I can have an experience smokin weed man. that don't make it right. Truth is all man. Experience i don't think has anything to do with it. hey.. i could be wrong.. but can you show me in scripts where anyone used this approach to present the Gospel? On the contrary.. Paul said "go give 'em that truth.. and if they don't recieve.. shake off the dirt and keep it movin'"... i'm paraphrasing again.. i know i shouldn't..but i hope my point has been made.

it's the Holy Spririts job to open eyes and present the "experience". But it's still GOD doing it.


Same convos all over the board these days... Olsteen vs Washer... Cross Movement vs. LA symphony

The Gospel vs christianity influenced speech and encouragement.

I'll take "undilluted truth" for 1000 alex.

btate0121
11-27-2007, 01:10 PM
Also.. that last paragraph in the opening post....


It seems to me that many put a premium on rightfully knowing as if that was evidence of conversion. On the contrary, without an experience of God's truth in our lives,

maybe you should change the highlighted word to EVIDENCE. Nowhere do I find that The Scripts support your "experience" theory. The Bible DOES say that we know dudes by the fruit they bear. Speach, action and deed. Walk and talk.. not just walk. What you say says a whole lot too doesn't it? Cuz i can pay tithes, give to the needy and all that and still cuss and spit hate from my mouth... and still damage my walk right? Show me where the "experience" evidenced conversion? EVIDENCE does... your walk.. and you talk show people who's camp you walk in.

jnorman888
11-27-2007, 02:22 PM
Also.. that last paragraph in the opening post....



maybe you should change the highlighted word to EVIDENCE. Nowhere do I find that The Scripts support your "experience" theory. The Bible DOES say that we know dudes by the fruit they bear. Speach, action and deed. Walk and talk.. not just walk. What you say says a whole lot too doesn't it? Cuz i can pay tithes, give to the needy and all that and still cuss and spit hate from my mouth... and still damage my walk right? Show me where the "experience" evidenced conversion? EVIDENCE does... your walk.. and you talk show people who's camp you walk in.




Can a person who is pruducing fruit experience that fruit? Can a person experience "Evidence"? If so then what's wrong with using the word "Experience"?

I think Cruz is using the word "Experience" as another form of "Knowing" or learning.





Jnorm888

btate0121
11-27-2007, 03:26 PM
i knew that argument was coming LOL. Evidence and experience are not interchangable in the sense he was using. He was making the point that experience may be a sign of genuiness... but experience can be faked, experience can be wrong. Evidence tells all.. sure there may be some people we think LOOK holy.. but we don't see it all. What evidence is being shown to GOD.. what evidence does HE see?

my point is this.. it isn't the "experience" that brings us to the revelation of truth.. it's the holy spirit. If God don't reveal it.. you don't know it. no experience can change your heart... your "experience" is the RESULT of the Holy Spirit doing it's job if you're growing in Christ. You can experience a lot of things. I experienced some things in some churches, from people, from substances... doesn't make them ok. just makes them results of my own actions.

sure.. you can experience a lot of things.. but "experience" isn't the final say on anything but how you feel. and feelings are dangerous when it comes to guiding us in life. How many people have made mistakes because the "felt the leading of the holy spirit" to say or do certain things? wars, murders, lying, cheating, stealing.. all because people felt certain things.. when God does not contradict himself. If his Bible says it.. that's what it means... take that and put your feelings down in a corner somewhere. hitler had an experience and did something, Dommer had an experience.. and did something.

how about this

the 9-11 jackers just KNEW they had an experience and that it was God's will to do what they did. TRUTH would have slapped them bammas back into sanity.

C-dero
11-27-2007, 05:35 PM
folks drank kool-aid cuz they had an experience man. get with that TRUTH. feelings have nothing to do with anything. experience has nothing to do with it. TRUTH opens eyes man. this seems a bit relativistic to me. I can have an experience smokin weed man. that don't make it right. Truth is all man. Experience i don't think has anything to do with it. hey.. i could be wrong.. but can you show me in scripts where anyone used this approach to present the Gospel? On the contrary.. Paul said "go give 'em that truth.. and if they don't recieve.. shake off the dirt and keep it movin'"... i'm paraphrasing again.. i know i shouldn't..but i hope my point has been made.

it's the Holy Spririts job to open eyes and present the "experience". But it's still GOD doing it.


Same convos all over the board these days... Olsteen vs Washer... Cross Movement vs. LA symphony

The Gospel vs christianity influenced speech and encouragement.

I'll take "undilluted truth" for 1000 alex.

scripture please.

I have one, Galatians 3:1-6 proves that experience has lots to do with truth.

Within those passages, Paul appeals to two vital aspects of the Christian faith: experience and scripture.

From verses 1-5, Paul points to nothing but the Galatians' experience as something that should of not had them led astray by the false gospel of circumcision. However, in verse 6, Paul directs attention to scripture, namely the Torah as another point of reference for why they have been bamboozled.

In fact, without the Galatians' experience, Paul's argument would of not worked. It is because the Galatians has experienced the impact of the Gospel, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the miracles, that Paul can address them the way he did, otherwise, why waste ink trying debunking the false gospel of circumcision on cats that have never experienced the power of God? Paul can only be effective because the Galatians have experienced the blessings of the Gospel.

btate0121
11-27-2007, 05:59 PM
experience of the what? the holy spirit? what nonsense is this!!!

you just proved my point.

it was the experience as a result of the HOLY SPIRIT. do you feel the holy spirit when you hear olsteen? bah... i'm done

seal
11-27-2007, 07:26 PM
experience of the what? the holy spirit? what nonsense is this!!!

you just proved my point.

it was the experience as a result of the HOLY SPIRIT. do you feel the holy spirit when you hear olsteen? bah... i'm done

Yo,

...LOL... Stop casting your pearls homie. This has been going on long enough. Put the guy on your ignore list it's a priceless gismo!!! :wink:

Grace and Peace,
seal

savedbygracealone
11-27-2007, 08:07 PM
cruz, i love you brother... i am praying for you now.

EBro
11-27-2007, 11:27 PM
Thank You!!!!!!!

jnorman888
11-28-2007, 12:24 PM
i knew that argument was coming LOL. Evidence and experience are not interchangable in the sense he was using. He was making the point that experience may be a sign of genuiness... but experience can be faked, experience can be wrong. Evidence tells all.. sure there may be some people we think LOOK holy.. but we don't see it all. What evidence is being shown to GOD.. what evidence does HE see?

my point is this.. it isn't the "experience" that brings us to the revelation of truth.. it's the holy spirit. If God don't reveal it.. you don't know it. no experience can change your heart... your "experience" is the RESULT of the Holy Spirit doing it's job if you're growing in Christ. You can experience a lot of things. I experienced some things in some churches, from people, from substances... doesn't make them ok. just makes them results of my own actions.

sure.. you can experience a lot of things.. but "experience" isn't the final say on anything but how you feel. and feelings are dangerous when it comes to guiding us in life. How many people have made mistakes because the "felt the leading of the holy spirit" to say or do certain things? wars, murders, lying, cheating, stealing.. all because people felt certain things.. when God does not contradict himself. If his Bible says it.. that's what it means... take that and put your feelings down in a corner somewhere. hitler had an experience and did something, Dommer had an experience.. and did something.

how about this

the 9-11 jackers just KNEW they had an experience and that it was God's will to do what they did. TRUTH would have slapped them bammas back into sanity.



Just because "experience" can be misused doesn't mean you ignore it all together. This is something I had to learn when it comes to Mormons.

Mormons ask people to pray to God to see if the Book of Mormon is true or not. Well knowing this made me forsake praying to God for things.

Now I was wrong in that. Just because Mormons do it doesn't mean the method is wrong.


The method is just that.....a method. Scripture doesn't tell us to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Instead, it tells us to test the spirits. It wants us to test our experience........not ignore them......not avoid them.


Experience is always gonna be in the picture. We can't be saved without it. We can't have a saving relationship with God without it.




Jnorm888

If we can't "experience" God then we can't be saved. We minds as well be Atheists if we can't "know" Him through experience.

How do you know God is real? IF your knowing is Cognitive only then it's mere theory and not actual reality.


That which starts in the head must sink down to the heart.

StreetSermonz
11-28-2007, 12:41 PM
my point is this.. it isn't the "experience" that brings us to the revelation of truth.. it's the holy spirit. If God don't reveal it.. you don't know it. no experience can change your heart... your "experience" is the RESULT of the Holy Spirit doing it's job if you're growing in Christ. You can experience a lot of things. I experienced some things in some churches, from people, from substances... doesn't make them ok. just makes them results of my own actions.

sure.. you can experience a lot of things.. but "experience" isn't the final say on anything but how you feel. and feelings are dangerous when it comes to guiding us in life. How many people have made mistakes because the "felt the leading of the holy spirit" to say or do certain things? wars, murders, lying, cheating, stealing.. all because people felt certain things.. when God does not contradict himself. If his Bible says it.. that's what it means... take that and put your feelings down in a corner somewhere. hitler had an experience and did something, Dommer had an experience.. and did something.

True indeed.



In fact, without the Galatians' experience, Paul's argument would of not worked. It is because the Galatians has experienced the impact of the Gospel, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the miracles, that Paul can address them the way he did, otherwise, why waste ink trying debunking the false gospel of circumcision on cats that have never experienced the power of God? Paul can only be effective because the Galatians have experienced the blessings of the Gospel.

word.


Just because "experience" can be misused doesn't mean you ignore it all together.

Experience is always gonna be in the picture. We can't be saved without it. We can't have a saving relationship with God without it.

If we can't "experience" God then we can't be saved. We might as well be Atheists if we can't "know" Him through experience.

How do you know God is real?

amen.



Everyone on this thread has had valid points. I believe that experiencing God is important. A misconception I've seen in this thread is that experience = feelings. We should NEVER rely on feelings. But part of having a healthy relationship with God and knowing Him is experiencing Him! Experiencing His peace, His joy, His suffering! Feelings are involved, but that doesn't mean we should trust our feelings. God healing someone of cancer is an experience. God savings your soul and regenerating you is an experience. God filling you with His Holy Spirit is an experience! The power of God is to be experienced! The Word of God is also to be experienced as we walk it out in our every day life.

I like Cruz's points, as well as what everyone else has had to bring to the table.

C-dero
11-28-2007, 12:47 PM
experience of the what? the holy spirit? what nonsense is this!!!

you just proved my point.

it was the experience as a result of the HOLY SPIRIT. do you feel the holy spirit when you hear olsteen? bah... i'm done

I am not disagreeing that the experience was a result of the Holy Spirit. Who will disagree with that? I am disagreeing with your assertion that experience has nothing to do with truth.

You assert, and I quote, "feelings have nothing to do with anything. experience has nothing to do with it. TRUTH opens eyes man. [...]Truth is all man. Experience i don't think has anything to do with it. hey.. i could be wrong."

Seems like you changed your mind about possibly being wrong?

Clearly Galatians 3:1-6 proves that experience has EVERYTHING to do with truth hence Paul appeals to the Galatians' experience of truth. Btate, you stated, " I could be wrong." Would you now say that you are wrong with what you said above?

C-dero
11-28-2007, 12:49 PM
cruz, i love you brother... i am praying for you now.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Praise God.

StreetSermonz
11-28-2007, 12:58 PM
I have a simple question:

How can you have a relationship with Christ without any experience? I don't know about you, but I experience God every day. I have an open dialogue with Him.

Do you have a relationship with your wife based on a head knowledge that "she is my wife"? Or do you experience her as your wife? And this goes for any personal relationship you have.

Truth is to be experienced, and yes feelings are involved.

montenell
11-28-2007, 01:03 PM
I have a simple question:

How can you have a relationship with Christ without any experience? I don't know about you, but I experience God every day. I have an open dialogue with Him.

Do you have a relationship with your wife based on a head knowledge that "she is my wife"? Or do you experience her as your wife? And this goes for any personal relationship you have.

Truth is to be experienced, and yes feelings are involved.

I second that notion,i always see cats downing experience and i'm like if you didnt have some type of experience with God why would you believe you had a relationship with Him. Doesnt mean every one has the same experience but there has to be some type.

seal
11-28-2007, 03:49 PM
I have a simple question:

How can you have a relationship with Christ without any experience? I don't know about you, but I experience God every day. I have an open dialogue with Him.

Do you have a relationship with your wife based on a head knowledge that "she is my wife"? Or do you experience her as your wife? And this goes for any personal relationship you have.

Truth is to be experienced, and yes feelings are involved.


I second that notion,i always see cats downing experience and i'm like if you didnt have some type of experience with God why would you believe you had a relationship with Him. Doesnt mean every one has the same experience but there has to be some type.

What you are confusing is that we are ruling out experience completely. There is no such thing as Head Knowledge that's a logical fallacy, b/c anyman depending on head knowledge to live the Christian Live is deceived and knows nothing of God. One must be born again and turn from sin to have divine knowledge of this God. Paul makes these things clear when he says they have a form of Godliness but the deny the power there of. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal Truth is which true knowledge which is the fear of the Lord. Show me a person who fears the Lord and obeys his commands and you are showing me a wise person.

Experiences can never give you this because they aren't absolute. I.E., the scribes and the pharisees saw Jesus do miracle after miracle, they EXPERIENCED these things but they still didn't believe. But here you are famo, Over 1900 years later believing every single thing the Gospel says Christ did with no doubt in your mind. How did this happen? It was not experience my brother but the Holy Spirit revealed this to you and gave you Faith to be convinced of those things hoped and the EVIDENCE of those things not seen. So though you never experienced Jesus in your lifetime you are convinced of his Lordship and rule over your life. This is what debunks experience. Experience does nothing, but the Holy Spirit brings DEEP CONVICTION and enables a sinner to repent of their sins and turn. Experience can't do that because it void and changes with the wind and can't prove Truth. So we like to change out the word experience b/c it carries with it too much baggage b/c many can argue Joseph Smith having an experience with God that goes contrary to Sound Doctrine. We like to use the word Encounter. So all of us Christians had an Encounter with the King of Kings and he rocked our suppositions, showed us our fate without him, and we ran like crazy to his arms b/c we had no choice of Life outside of him. As we were chosen to do.

Grace and Peace,
seal

C-dero
11-28-2007, 04:28 PM
[COLOR="Black"][B]
Over 1900 years later believing every single thing the Gospel says Christ did with no doubt in your mind. How did this happen? It was not experience my brother but the Holy Spirit revealed this to you and gave you Faith to be convinced of those things hoped and the EVIDENCE of those things not seen. So though you never experienced Jesus in your lifetime you are convinced of his Lordship and rule over your life.

I think you are confusing statements of facts and experience of those facts. The latter is what my initial post was about. This is what I have been posting about. This is what Galatians 3:1-6 is about ( I'll return back to it later).

I never experienced falling from a 14 story building. That does not mean that falling from a 14 story building is not going to hurt me or kill me. Indeed it will. Or, I never experienced physical death. However, that does not mean that I am immortal. How do I know I am going to die? Ultimately because God's word says I will (Heb 9:27).

Same with salvation, I can feel like I am not saved but that does not mean that I am not saved. No. So, where does feeling and experience fit in all this? Well, it fits like a hand to a glove. The problem I see is the separation of experience from belief as if there is first salvation and then experience. There can be salvation and then evidence but evidence and experience are two different things. Sometimes people see evidence of salvation in your life before you can see them. As for experience, salvation itself is an experience. This brings me back to Galatians 3:1-6

1 Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christís death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. 2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. 3 How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? 4 Have you experienced so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?

5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

As one can see, Paul goes not from just what they know ( what the particular Greek usage of foolish conveys: failing to appeal to what they already know to be true) but also to what they have experienced, which Paul sees as one in the same ( see Philip. 3:10). Paul points to their experience as not evidence of their salvation but AS their salvation. Remember that what Paul is combating is the false gospel of circumcision that says that one is saved and sanctified through Christ and circumcision. Paul appeals to the Galatians experience of the impact of the Gospel, the experience of them being impacted by the Holy Spirit who worked miracles among them and in them, and also appealed to the authority of scripture which interestingly references Abraham's experience of salvation prior to circumcision.

Again, it is because of the Galatians own experience that Paul is making an argument otherwise he will treat them as people who have never experienced salvation.

montenell
11-28-2007, 05:06 PM
What you are confusing is that we are ruling out experience completely. There is no such thing as Head Knowledge that's a logical fallacy, b/c anyman depending on head knowledge to live the Christian Live is deceived and knows nothing of God. One must be born again and turn from sin to have divine knowledge of this God. Paul makes these things clear when he says they have a form of Godliness but the deny the power there of. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal Truth is which true knowledge which is the fear of the Lord. Show me a person who fears the Lord and obeys his commands and you are showing me a wise person.

Experiences can never give you this because they aren't absolute. I.E., the scribes and the pharisees saw Jesus do miracle after miracle, they EXPERIENCED these things but they still didn't believe. But here you are famo, Over 1900 years later believing every single thing the Gospel says Christ did with no doubt in your mind. How did this happen? It was not experience my brother but the Holy Spirit revealed this to you and gave you Faith to be convinced of those things hoped and the EVIDENCE of those things not seen. So though you never experienced Jesus in your lifetime you are convinced of his Lordship and rule over your life. This is what debunks experience. Experience does nothing, but the Holy Spirit brings DEEP CONVICTION and enables a sinner to repent of their sins and turn. Experience can't do that because it void and changes with the wind and can't prove Truth. So we like to change out the word experience b/c it carries with it too much baggage b/c many can argue Joseph Smith having an experience with God that goes contrary to Sound Doctrine. We like to use the word Encounter. So all of us Christians had an Encounter with the King of Kings and he rocked our suppositions, showed us our fate without him, and we ran like crazy to his arms b/c we had no choice of Life outside of him. As we were chosen to do.

Grace and Peace,
seal

yes yes. but guess what, you EXPERIENCED the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I'm not saying every experience is spiritual, nor am i saying that experience is equal to the word. what i am saying is that as believers we have experienced the word, your experience is not the same as mine, however the word that we both have experienced is the same, i think the problem is that cats act like experience is a bad thing when it isn't. no experience does not save you but being saved is an experience. make sense?

seal
11-28-2007, 06:19 PM
yes yes. but guess what, you EXPERIENCED the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I'm not saying every experience is spiritual, nor am i saying that experience is equal to the word. what i am saying is that as believers we have experienced the word, your experience is not the same as mine, however the word that we both have experienced is the same, i think the problem is that cats act like experience is a bad thing when it isn't. no experience does not save you but being saved is an experience. make sense?

I got you in a sense. Just know that experience doesn't mean you are save dude. What you say about the Christ is what shows you are the Save and your actions shall follow your beliefs. I.E. I experienced a religious experience with God but.... it's still okay for me to has sex outside of marriage, believe in multiple ways into heaven, and etc.... Was that a geniune experience? Why don't any of the Apostle appeal to this notion of experience? You either believe the Truth or you don't. How do you believe the Truth? By Faith and the Power of the Spirit. It's a term that has come into popularity during the 20th Century. Unfortunately there are too many experiences leading people astray, so the Truth of Scripture will expose whether someone knows God or not. Having a religious experience can be as vain as going to church every Sunday, shouting, speaking in tongues, casting out demons, but still dead in sin and unlearned of the Truth.

The definition of Faith goes against experience.

Hebrews 11:1-3

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Experience can't account for the invisible b/c non of the 5 senses can dictate whether something happened or not. How can you experience the invisible??? The Bible says the wind blows and you don't know from which way it comes from. So how can experience be relied upon. It's pretty absurd, but one can rely on the Truth of what the Scripture say and by knowing Truth one must live the Truth.

Grace and Peace,
seal

StreetSermonz
11-28-2007, 07:29 PM
I agree with you Seal in regards to salvation. Although I do believe that salvation is also experienced. Faith cannot be sensed, it is unseen. However, fruits of faith can be seen as well as experienced. My point is that our relationship with God is not just in knowledge, but is also experienced. I don't just know I'm God's son, I experience God as my Father. I have a relationship with him. No one is saying that experience is a valid source of truth over scripture - for the WORD alone is our source of objective truth. However experience can and does support the Truth of the Bible.


As far as experience leading people astray, if your experience doesn't line up with the Word, then it isn't God, point blank. Again, I think we are getting the word experience mixed up with feelings, which may lead some people on this board to think of emotionalism.

I think the very premise of this thread is that the Word of God can be, and should be, experienced.

seal
11-28-2007, 07:49 PM
I agree with you Seal in regards to salvation. Although I do believe that salvation is also experienced. Faith cannot be sensed, it is unseen. However, fruits of faith can be seen as well as experienced. My point is that our relationship with God is not just in knowledge, but is also experienced. I don't just know I'm God's son, I experience God as my Father. I have a relationship with him. No one is saying that experience is a valid source of truth over scripture - for the WORD alone is our source of objective truth. However experience can and does support the Truth of the Bible.

Now I want you to tell me how you experience Salvation that was given before the Foundations of the Earth. Can you experience being Justified by Christ death on the Cross over 1950 years ago??? Impossible dude. One must be convinced by the Holy Spirit to believe such a thing or it would be ridiculous that is why Paul says that it is FOOLISHNESS to the Gentiles to believe Christ died and Rose again from the dead. The Jews required a sign and when they got the sign they still didn't believe. I mean the Truth is pointing towards experience being vain. What is the Gospel dude? Paul says that the Gospel of Christ is the POWER OF GOD that leads to Salvation. Not the experience of man. Man's experience is as faulty with plenty of gaps and holes. My so called experience I thought I had with God was in a Heretical church who taught damndable heresies. So was that an experience geniune when I believed that I had God's Power in my tongue to call things into existence? That Jesus went to Hell and was born again in Hell? Jesus became a demon on the Cross? Was my experience geniuine when I believed such things? Absolutely not. I became a believer when I received Faith and the Spirit lead me into Truth.

The only things Christians experience is Santification. Not Justification/Salvation. We experience the work of the Holy Spirit enables us to mortify the flesh and put it to death. This is where I think we are getting confused. One can not experience Salvation b/c it was bought before the foundations of the World for the Lamb was Slain before the Foundation of the World.


As far as experience leading people astray, if your experience doesn't line up with the Word, then it isn't God, point blank. Again, I think we are getting the word experience mixed up with feelings, which may lead some people on this board to think of emotionalism.

I think the very premise of this thread is that the Word of God can be, and should be, experienced.

The Word of God can only be made real by the prompting of the Holy Spirit and the Truth he reveals. We can not and I mean never, experience Truth, the Holy Spirit must reveal it and we are sanctified by accomplishing the prompting of the Spirit. If this isn't the case, anytime a reprobate/unregenerate does something according to Truth one would have to say they were doing it for the Glorification of God. I.E. Bill Gates gives 3 million dollars to a charity. It's a good work and something the Bible says the Rich are suppose to do, but did he do it out of Faith or for himself. Himself therefore, it wasn't that the Spirit revealed truth to him but his ownself. See what I'm saying? I hope... b/c I'm bout done and the Wife ain't playing about me being on here when I get home...LOL...

StreetSermonz
11-28-2007, 10:24 PM
I hear you bro. I think that here we may have to agree to disagree. I will re-iterate tho, that just because you (or anyone else for that matter) has had an experience related to their emotions or false doctrine that they believe(d) to be true, it doesn't mean that people cannot have a real experience based on the true Word of God - which is the point of this thread.

When Moses parted the Red Sea and Israel made their exodus out of Egypt, it was experienced. When Jesus was baptised and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove, it was experienced. When Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus and then received his eyesight through the hands of Ananais, that was an experience. When he endured "afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights and hunger" (2 Corinth 6:4) it was an experience. The Word of God is meant to be experienced. Worshipping God is an experience. Our lives as bondservants of Christ is an experience. Glorifying God and maginifying the cross of Christ with our life is an experience.

Salvation is experienced because you go from death to life. You experience positional sanctification and redemption when God places His Holy Spirit within you, and then you experience progressive sanctification (what you eluded to). I don't know about you, but I actually felt clean when God saved me, I felt the peace of God for the first time, and I experienced a love that I never knew existed.

The gospel is the power of God, but the power of God can be and is experienced by man when an individual is born again.

As far as experiencing Salvation and Justification - yes, these are things that we receive by faith, and are hoped for. We will fully experience them on that great day during God's judgment, however we do experience the benefits now as members of the Body of Christ - now being able to boldly enter the throne of grace, having the veil of the law removed, no longer needing a human high priest because we now have total access through our new high priest - Jesus Christ.

StreetSermonz
11-28-2007, 10:33 PM
Romans 5:1-5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

seal
11-29-2007, 11:32 AM
I hear you bro. I think that here we may have to agree to disagree. I will re-iterate tho, that just because you (or anyone else for that matter) has had an experience related to their emotions or false doctrine that they believe(d) to be true, it doesn't mean that people cannot have a real experience based on the true Word of God - which is the point of this thread.

When Moses parted the Red Sea and Israel made their exodus out of Egypt, it was experienced. When Jesus was baptised and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove, it was experienced. When Paul was blinded on the road to Damascus and then received his eyesight through the hands of Ananais, that was an experience. When he endured "afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights and hunger" (2 Corinth 6:4) it was an experience. The Word of God is meant to be experienced. Worshipping God is an experience. Our lives as bondservants of Christ is an experience. Glorifying God and maginifying the cross of Christ with our life is an experience.

Salvation is experienced because you go from death to life. You experience positional sanctification and redemption when God places His Holy Spirit within you, and then you experience progressive sanctification (what you eluded to). I don't know about you, but I actually felt clean when God saved me, I felt the peace of God for the first time, and I experienced a love that I never knew existed.

The gospel is the power of God, but the power of God can be and is experienced by man when an individual is born again.

As far as experiencing Salvation and Justification - yes, these are things that we receive by faith, and are hoped for. We will fully experience them on that great day during God's judgment, however we do experience the benefits now as members of the Body of Christ - now being able to boldly enter the throne of grace, having the veil of the law removed, no longer needing a human high priest because we now have total access through our new high priest - Jesus Christ.

These experiences are not what we are arguing against. I ask you to prove to me that you experienced Salvation and Justification. You've yet to do so but came up with a trail of experiences by cats in the Bible. I never said they didn't experience anything with their 5 senses. That would be ridiculous. We are able to approach Christ Throne our high priest b/c we have been Justified. We are clearly still being sanctified by the work of the Spirit.

You can't feel being Justified dude. I think we are somewhat talking past each other here. We were all put in a right standing with God by Christ Work on the Cross. How my friend can you experience that? This is what I'm asking, not about the experience given after the fact. That's Sanctification we all experience that everyday as the Holy Spirit works in our lives conforming us into the image of Christ. We Glorify God with our live by being Sanctified and Holy, not Justified. The Justification was all his work homie. This is my only issue here, I'm not knocking anyone's experience in personal Holiness or Growth in their Life. Once the Spirit revealed to me that I was Justified by Christ before time began I felt the urgency to get to know his Truth and Live it. I experience the abundant life daily my friend walking in Holiness b/c I was called out or set apart for holiness, not wrath.

But we can disagree but I honestly don't believe we actually do. I know if you were to take a stab at the question I'm posing to you above about how do you feel Justified or Salvation you'd see that it's not possible. But one can know he is Justified and has received Salvation, when the Spirit reveals this to them by Faith. And Faith can not be experienced but it's God's Gift given.

Grace and Peace,
seal

montenell
11-29-2007, 01:30 PM
i think you might be missing what we are saying sly,experience does NOT make you saved, however being saved, being justified, sanctified are things that all saved people, you included have and do experience, you experienced a change in your life when you realized you were a sinner and the Holy Spirit convicted you, whenever you see a fault in your life and desire to change it thats an experience. yes experience has led many people astray,. but thats only when the experience is not in line with scripture,, i know scripture is true because i experience its truth, and so do you, otherwise you''d only be guessing that the bible is God's word and hoping, and you'd have no security or no reason to believe that you'd be with God after passing from this flesh

seal
11-29-2007, 04:30 PM
i think you might be missing what we are saying sly,experience does NOT make you saved, however being saved, being justified, sanctified are things that all saved people, you included have and do experience, you experienced a change in your life when you realized you were a sinner and the Holy Spirit convicted you, whenever you see a fault in your life and desire to change it thats an experience. yes experience has led many people astray,. but thats only when the experience is not in line with scripture,, i know scripture is true because i experience its truth, and so do you, otherwise you''d only be guessing that the bible is God's word and hoping, and you'd have no security or no reason to believe that you'd be with God after passing from this flesh

What you are saying here Mony is Sanctification. Your justification and Salvation was done outside of you, very far away from your experience. You know scripture is Truth by the Holy Spirit not experience. B/c if it was just experience dude why doesn't everyone who reads the bible believe it's True? They experienced it right by reading it? I know Atheist who know the Bible more than Christians I know but they are still Atheist. Experience fails here once again. It's been proven time and time again that Experience proves nothing but it only the REVELATION of the Holy that guides into all Truth.

I'm not trying to take anything away from you or Sermonz experience in Sanctification. Not at all, every believer experiences Sanctification, it's a beautiful feeling to know that you are becoming more like Christ daily and putting to death the sin in your life. Yes, that's a clean feeling and that experience is as geniune as they come b/c now you have hedonism which is a delight in the things of God where your feelings and your emotions are driven by Truth. I'm all for that right there. But I'm just trying to clear up the terminology here.

Justification/Salvation happens outside of your experience and feelings. A person knows that they are Justified, not a person felt they were Justified. That's empiricism. We know the Truth by what the Spirit reveals not our experience. This is all I'm stating here and showing that it's Sanctification that we as believers experience. Once the Holy Spirit reveals to you that you are a Son of the Most High God, it's the Good Newz in it's purest form. Now you know that you are forgiven of sins, sin then and only then has no dominion over you. You feel clean b/c you know you are clean and are now enabled to experience Sanctification. This is a great convo and it's getting me all fuzzy and warm inside...LOL...

Grace and Peace,
seal

C-dero
11-29-2007, 07:49 PM
[B]I got you in a sense. Just know that experience doesn't mean you are save dude. What you say about the Christ is what shows you are the Save and your actions shall follow your beliefs.

Salvation is an experience.




[B][COLOR="Black"] I.E. I experienced a religious experience with God but.... it's still okay for me to has sex outside of marriage, believe in multiple ways into heaven, and etc....



[B][COLOR="Black"]Why don't any of the Apostle appeal to this notion of experience? You either believe the Truth or you don't.

Excuse me, "no apostles appealed to the notion of experience?"

I believe the Apostle Paul wrote the words in Galatians 3:1-6

Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross.

2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ.

3 How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

4 Have you experienced[a] so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?

5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”



[B][COLOR="Black"]

The definition of Faith goes against experience. [...]
Experience can't account for the invisible b/c non of the 5 senses can dictate whether something happened or not. How can you experience the invisible???

Faulty reasoning. You are saying that only that which is visible is experiential. What about air which is visible but we experience it? What about the Holy Spirit? What about God the Father and God the Son? I can't see them yet I experience them?



[B][COLOR="Black"]The Bible says the wind blows and you don't know from which way it comes from. So how can experience be relied upon. It's pretty absurd, but one can rely on the Truth of what the Scripture say and by knowing Truth one must live the Truth.

reading your own meaning into passages is not cool.

C-dero
11-29-2007, 08:04 PM
[B][COLOR="DarkOrange"]Now I want you to tell me how you experience Salvation that was given before the Foundations of the Earth. Can you experience being Justified by Christ death on the Cross over 1950 years ago??? Impossible dude.

Christians were chosen before the foundations of the earth not given salvation before the foundation of the earth. Salvation was given to me 17 years ago and since then, I have been experiencing redemption, salvation, sanctification, things that I did not experience before the foundations of the earth because I did not exist back then. In order to experience something back then, I would have had to actually exist back then. I am not Jesus brah, I did not pre-exist before my birth.

Now, seal, you know you done messed up. You know you done messed up right? Your before the foundations of the earth argument presupposes that salvation is an experience. Wow you do have a point that salvation was not experienced when we were chosen before the foundations of the world( because we did not exist before the foundations of the world) you cannot say we did not experience salvation on the day we repented as a response to the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Why? Because on that day we did exist. :tongue:




[B][COLOR="Black"] What is the Gospel dude? Paul says that the Gospel of Christ is the POWER OF GOD that leads to Salvation. Not the experience of man.

It is no Gospel if it cannot be experienced. In fact, how can you use the "Power of God" in the same sentence? It is true that the "experience of man" cannot save you, but who has asserted that? Yet, salvation is an experience that humans encounter. I don't know about you but something like "power" is something that can be experienced. If it can't, then it is no power at all. All one has to do is ask anyone who has fought Mike Tyson if they have experienced his power and they will simply show you the tape. If human power can be experienced then how much more can God's power be experienced???

C-dero
11-29-2007, 08:07 PM
Romans 5:1-5

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Amen! Because of justification, we have peace with God. That is an experience.

Rejoicing in hope is an experience

Yes, suffering, something essential to salvation, is an experience.

Amen and amen!

seal
11-30-2007, 11:36 AM
...LOL... I'm sure Cruz is responding to my responses but I can't see them...LOL... Cool :biggrin:

Since I can't see them I shall respond as such:

Sure Cruz.... anything you say...:wink: