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View Full Version : Is Church History Bias or the Reader???



seal
07-28-2007, 12:55 PM
Yo,

One of my good friends (Who's a staunch Free Willer) borrowed my Amazing Grace DVD b/c he said he wanted to learn about Church History. So today he gave me a call after viewing it saying that the DVD was Bias towards Calvinism and he was pretty upset. Well I told him on the Cover it said the History of Calvinsim. Then I told him that I told him the first section was on Church History and that is was brief. He didn't have any knowlegde of Church History so I gave him what I had to give. Then I asked him to give me details on how they were bias and he couldn't offer me nothing but I got things to do and I'll talk to you later.

So that got me wondering about which party is actually bias when reviewing History. Is it the Historical Documents themselves or the person who's viewing the documents. Now this doesn't necessarily have to be about Church History but any type of History... This convo can get very broad but I'd like to learn more from different perspectives and takes on this. I'd say that both Historical Documents and the Person viewing are bias. Yet, is it possible to be seperable. Can Historical Documents be bias and the person unbias or vice versa? Hopefully I didn't confuse anyone....

Hail King Jesus,
seal

Shock~Therapy
07-28-2007, 01:48 PM
So that got me wondering about which party is actually bias when reviewing History. Is it the Historical Documents themselves or the person who's viewing the documents.


Both. I am sure you have heard how history books have been revamped within the last decade. The role of blacks in the building of America was downplayed in traditional history books because they were considered as less than people.

Also look at the news today. Stories are edited to elicit a certain response from the viewing audience. Most news coverage is bias because the media is only showing what they view as important or entertaining. The only channel that you could reasonably call unbias is C-Span because it provides full coverage without the commentary, allowing people to draw their own conclusions. Bias in media outlets and historical documents has been an ongoing issue since mankind first began to communicate.

To say that you view or read something without any bias is a lie. I filter everything I see and hear according to the Word of God, so yes that does make me bias. If someone believes themselves to be in the truth then it is apparent that they will filter everything according to that truth. If someone believes that there is no absolute truth then they will filter everything according to that bias, therefore rejecting anything that appears to be truth as simply fallacy.

So the real issue is not with the bias but with fact and truth:
How accurate are those historical documents? Do the present the full truth or only part of the story, therefore making it a lie? Is what you believe really the truth or are you self-decieved?

Shock~Therapy
07-28-2007, 01:55 PM
One of my good friends (Who's a staunch Free Willer)

Side note. Many would call you a "Staunch Predestinator". There is nothing wrong with being staunch in what you believe. Of course it all depends on whether what you believe is truth or fallacy

seal
07-28-2007, 04:13 PM
Side note. Many would call you a "Staunch Predestinator".

They better call me that or get what's coming to them :mad: ..... LOL... J/K :tongue:

montenell
07-28-2007, 04:27 PM
i say both, because we already know people tend to be biased, and its people who record history ie documents

seal
07-28-2007, 04:28 PM
Both. I am sure you have heard how history books have been revamped within the last decade. The role of blacks in the building of America was downplayed in traditional history books because they were considered as less than people.

Not just Africans but Spanish, Cubans, and the Chinese. But, what's even more apalling is that people overlook the accomplishments of Europeans b/c of century old grudges when some Europeans were for the same cause which is equality of all men. So I believe it's very unfair for some to say that Blacks have been down played without saying Europeans have been down played and that Cubans have been down played. We are all one Human race and anything anyone accomplishes is for the good of the entire human race not just their ethnicity to brag about. That's Humanism b/c the term Race is Humanist. Just my perspective and what I believe is True.


Also look at the news today. Stories are edited to elicit a certain response from the viewing audience. Most news coverage is bias because the media is only showing what they view as important or entertaining. The only channel that you could reasonably call unbias is C-Span because it provides full coverage without the commentary, allowing people to draw their own conclusions. Bias in media outlets and historical documents has been an ongoing issue since mankind first began to communicate.

To say that you view or read something without any bias is a lie. I filter everything I see and hear according to the Word of God, so yes that does make me bias. If someone believes themselves to be in the truth then it is apparent that they will filter everything according to that truth. If someone believes that there is no absolute truth then they will filter everything according to that bias, therefore rejecting anything that appears to be truth as simply fallacy.

So the real issue is not with the bias but with fact and truth:
How accurate are those historical documents? Do the present the full truth or only part of the story, therefore making it a lie? Is what you believe really the truth or are you self-decieved?

So Shock, you don't believe anyone can be unbias? Man this can lead into so many areas of thought. I got one. How can one know if he or she is self deceived? Is it something they can reveal within themselves or does something outside of themselves have to reveal self deception?

Hail King Jesus,
seal

pchild
07-28-2007, 04:35 PM
***


When it comes to the good book -no.


When it comes to the perceiver or any other random piece
of historical documentation -yes.




***

Devin
07-28-2007, 04:38 PM
Not just Africans but Spanish, Cubans, and the Chinese. But, what's even more apalling is that people overlook the accomplishments of Europeans b/c of century old grudges when some Europeans were for the same cause which is equality of all men. So I believe it's very unfair for some to say that Blacks have been down played without saying Europeans have been down played and that Cubans have been down played. We are all one Human race and anything anyone accomplishes is for the good of the entire human race not just their ethnicity to brag about. That's Humanism b/c the term Race is Humanist. Just my perspective and what I believe is True.



So Shock, you don't believe anyone can be unbias? Man this can lead into so many areas of thought. I got one. How can one know if he or she is self deceived? Is it something they can reveal within themselves or does something outside of themselves have to reveal self deception?

Hail King Jesus,
seal

i agree.pretty much every ethnicity of people get their accomplishments downplayed and dont get their just due.i just think in certain situations one ethnicity of people get more credit than others.but nonetheless its all the same.

BTW.we are all bias people.:)

Devin
07-28-2007, 04:39 PM
***


When it comes to the good book -no.


When it comes to the perceiver or any other random piece
of historical documentation -yes.




***


are you saying we are not bias when it comes to the Bible?how so?

Shock~Therapy
07-28-2007, 05:06 PM
Not just Africans but Spanish, Cubans, and the Chinese. But, what's even more apalling is that people overlook the accomplishments of Europeans b/c of century old grudges when some Europeans were for the same cause which is equality of all men. So I believe it's very unfair for some to say that Blacks have been down played without saying Europeans have been down played and that Cubans have been down played. We are all one Human race and anything anyone accomplishes is for the good of the entire human race not just their ethnicity to brag about. That's Humanism b/c the term Race is Humanist. Just my perspective and what I believe is True.[/COLOR][/B]

- Well, I was just pointing blacks in America out as an example. Other races have been downplayed as well.

[QUOTE=seal;247840]So Shock, you don't believe anyone can be unbias? Man this can lead into so many areas of thought. I got one. How can one know if he or she is self deceived? Is it something they can reveal within themselves or does something outside of themselves have to reveal self deception?l
- Of course only the Author of Truth, Jesus Christ can reveal to us that we are self-deceived. When the truth is offered, we can either choose to accept that truth or choose to remain in deception. The truth will be revealed to everyone but some will not accept that truth (subjecting themselves to it) until it is too late.

The question would then be asked: If the truth is offered to all then why would some reject the truth? The truth is very unpleasant and someone would have to come to the end of themselves before they truly receive the truth. Pride is what keeps man from acknowledging the Truth of Christ.

pchild
07-28-2007, 05:07 PM
are you saying we are not bias when it comes to the Bible?how so?



No I said:


The Bible itself was not authored from a biased view.

The perceiver ( the one viewing the bible ) can be subjected to partiality.



***

Shock~Therapy
07-28-2007, 05:10 PM
***


When it comes to the good book -no.


When it comes to the perceiver or any other random piece
of historical documentation -yes.




***

The bible is bias. It is bias to God. Meaning the Word is not some voidless book with no intended meaning but rather there is an intent behind in. God did not give man the scripture to develop their own intended meaning about it but rather there must be one clear truth behind scripture. The Word therefore is bias according to the truth of God.

seal
07-28-2007, 05:16 PM
i say both, because we already know people tend to be biased, and its people who record history ie documents

Yeap.... Well how can anyone know what is True to believe if all things are bias anyways. Anytime I do a thread people are already looking at me through their bias lenz in promoting my beliefs (Which I probably am). Some claim to give me a unbias benefit of the doubt, yet how is that possible?

So many questions.....

Devin
07-28-2007, 05:24 PM
The bible is bias. It is bias to God. Meaning the Word is not some voidless book with no intended meaning but rather there is an intent behind in. God did not give man the scripture to develop their own intended meaning about it but rather there must be one clear truth behind scripture. The Word therefore is bias according to the truth of God.

yep.agreed.:)

pchild
07-28-2007, 05:33 PM
The bible is bias. It is bias to God. Meaning the Word is not some voidless book with no intended meaning but rather there is an intent behind in. God did not give man the scripture to develop their own intended meaning about it but rather there must be one clear truth behind scripture. The Word therefore is bias according to the truth of God.


Good point*

However-
A biased view lacks all the facts of a matter.

So if the authors were tainted with a biased perspective then
theres more out there.

This type of thinking can lead to idolatry.






***

seal
07-28-2007, 05:37 PM
- Of course only the Author of Truth, Jesus Christ can reveal to us that we are self-deceived. When the truth is offered, we can either choose to accept that truth or choose to remain in deception. The truth will be revealed to everyone but some will not accept that truth (subjecting themselves to it) until it is too late.

Now, lets back up for a moment. This doesn't answer the questions I posed.

How can one know if he or she is self deceived? Is it something they can reveal within themselves or does something outside of themselves have to reveal self deception?l

My questions are related to the self, how does one's self know if they are deceived? You gave me an answer but not to this particular question. The other question wasn't answered either. If a person is self deceived can they within themselves reveal their deception or does something outside of themselves have to reveal that self deception?

You telling me Jesus Christ is the Truth and reveals his Truth to everyone but some accept and some don't doesn't answer this question. I haven't even went that far yet b/c we'd still have to deal with the sensational enlightenment vs. regenerational enlightenment.


The question would then be asked: If the truth is offered to all then why would some reject the truth? The truth is very unpleasant and someone would have to come to the end of themselves before they truly receive the truth. Pride is what keeps man from acknowledging the Truth of Christ.

Yet every man before and after regeneration has pride so this would still begs the question of how some but not others. I'm not trying to actual to into specifics here but leave the convo open as philosophical questions rather then dive into Theological assertions b/c then this thread will be moved and I'll be done...LOL...

Shock~Therapy
07-28-2007, 06:27 PM
Good point*

However-
A biased view lacks all the facts of a matter.

So if the authors were tainted with a biased perspective then
theres more out there.

This type of thinking can lead to idolatry.






***
mmm...

Taken from Webster's

Bias- an inclination of temperament or outlook.

no where does this definition refer to a view lacking facts.

pchild
07-28-2007, 06:50 PM
mmm...

Taken from Webster's

Bias- an inclination of temperament or outlook.

no where does this definition refer to a view lacking facts.



you left some out...


An inclination or preference, esp. one that *interferes* with impartial
judgement: PREJUDICE


look up partial




***

Shock~Therapy
07-28-2007, 06:58 PM
you left some out...


An inclination or preference, esp. one that *interferes* with impartial
judgement: PREJUDICE


look up partial




***

partial - inclined to favor one party more than the other.

The Bible favors the truth God over any supposed man-made truth, so yes you could say that it is partial in that sense.

pchild
07-28-2007, 07:05 PM
partial - inclined to favor one party more than the other.

The Bible favors the truth God over any supposed man-made truth, so yes you could say that it is partial in that sense.


what dictionary are you reading from?


taken from WEBSTER'S II New Riverside University Dictionary:

partial: 1.Relating to or affecting only part: INCOMPLETE.
2.Favoring one person or side over another: BIASED



nothing good comes from the word bias





***

pchild
07-28-2007, 07:11 PM
link for confirmation:


http://www.answers.com/topic/partial







***

Devin
07-28-2007, 07:12 PM
what dictionary are you reading from?


taken from WEBSTER'S II New Riverside University Dictionary:

partial: 1.Relating to or affecting only part: INCOMPLETE.
2.Favoring one person or side over another: BIASED



nothing good comes from the word bias





***


isnt God bias?

pchild
07-28-2007, 07:13 PM
isnt God bias?




if He is then He's prejudice also...







***

Devin
07-28-2007, 07:14 PM
if He is then He's prejudice also...







***

how is that negative?

pchild
07-28-2007, 09:45 PM
how is that negative?






C'mon man you sound like me.

When has prejudice ever been associated with something positive?




***

Shock~Therapy
07-28-2007, 11:48 PM
what dictionary are you reading from?


taken from WEBSTER'S II New Riverside University Dictionary:

partial: 1.Relating to or affecting only part: INCOMPLETE.
2.Favoring one person or side over another: BIASED



nothing good comes from the word bias





***

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/partial

the definition is the same as the 2nd definition you gave. i.e. the Bible favors God over man. The Bible is partial to God.

P.S. You are just being bias against the word bias, which makes you a bias person as well.

pchild
07-29-2007, 10:58 AM
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/partial

the definition is the same as the 2nd definition you gave. i.e. the Bible favors God over man. The Bible is partial to God.

P.S. You are just being bias against the word bias, which makes you a bias person as well.


That's the pot calling the kettle black.

So what about definition 1, you know the iNcOmPleTe part?




***

Shock~Therapy
07-29-2007, 11:16 AM
That's the pot calling the kettle black.

So what about definition 1, you know the iNcOmPleTe part?




***

Pretty much. I am bias. I already admitted to that.

Both definitions cannot be applied. The 2nd definition is in relation to the word bias and the first definition is not. It all depends on the usage of the word.

i.e. P-child gave Shock~Therapy a cold stare.

cold - 1. having a relatively low temperature or one lower than normal.
2. marked by a lack of the warmth of normal human emotion, friendliness, or compassion.

can a stare have a low temperature? No. But a stare can lack normal human emotion.

you have to pick one definition based on a word's usage not ALL of the definitions because they ALL do not apply.

pchild
07-29-2007, 11:33 AM
Pretty much. I am bias. I already admitted to that.

Both definitions cannot be applied. The 2nd definition is in relation to the word bias and the first definition is not. It all depends on the usage of the word.

i.e. P-child gave Shock~Therapy a cold stare.

cold - 1. having a relatively low temperature or one lower than normal.
2. marked by a lack of the warmth of normal human emotion, friendliness, or compassion.

can a stare have a low temperature? No. But a stare can lack normal human emotion.

you have to pick one definition based on a word's usage not ALL of the definitions because they ALL do not apply.



O.k.-

So the word bias is a two sided coin -coo.


But the question isn't -which version of biased applies best in
your assesment of this question:

..which party is actually bias when reviewing History. Is it the Historical Documents themselves or the person who's viewing the documents?


We already know which version applies because his friend was
*upset* after viewing the DVD ( meaning bad bias ).





***

Devin
07-29-2007, 02:53 PM
well pchild.generally when someone is unbias they have no official position on anything.this is why i believe God to be bias.because He has a position on everything.prejudice is usually when someone has a judgemental attitude and discriminate.well God discriminates against sinners and has predjudice towards them aswell.He sends the saints to heaven.the sinners to hell.in that sense God is bias because HE wants ALL the worship and HE views himself as the Highest.usually when you deal with humans that are predjudice they view others as lower and themselves as the highest.thats God basically.were sinful creation.He's the Highest and believes that He is better than us all(which is true).thats just my take on the situation.

king neb
07-29-2007, 03:27 PM
Since you are a Clark fan, read this (http://www.trinitylectures.org/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=90&osCsid=11d).

Yes, historical accounts are biased.

naijagirl
07-29-2007, 03:38 PM
*grammar patrol shuffles in* It's "biased" and "prejudiced"...e.g. :"Mr. A is biased when it comes to deviled eggs" and "The young man is quite prejudiced". *grammar patrol shuffles out*

shekinahsmoke
07-29-2007, 07:19 PM
*grammar patrol shuffles in* It's "biased" and "prejudiced"...e.g. :"Mr. A is biased when it comes to deviled eggs" and "The young man is quite prejudiced". *grammar patrol shuffles out*
LOL. thanks neeci! (hehe)

seal
07-29-2007, 09:28 PM
Since you are a Clark fan, read this (http://www.trinitylectures.org/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=90&osCsid=11d).

Yes, historical accounts are biased.

Jason,

Thanks Jason, have you ever read Clarks book on Logical Questions for Textual Criticism? I'm about to order that joint and a couple others...

Hail King Jesus,
seal

king neb
07-29-2007, 09:55 PM
Jason,

Thanks Jason, have you ever read Clarks book on Logical Questions for Textual Criticism? I'm about to order that joint and a couple others...

Hail King Jesus,
seal

si' senior.

pchild
07-29-2007, 10:14 PM
well pchild.generally when someone is unbias they have no official position on anything.this is why i believe God to be bias.because He has a position on everything.prejudice is usually when someone has a judgemental attitude and discriminate.well God discriminates against sinners and has predjudice towards them aswell.He sends the saints to heaven.the sinners to hell.in that sense God is bias because HE wants ALL the worship and HE views himself as the Highest.usually when you deal with humans that are predjudice they view others as lower and themselves as the highest.thats God basically.were sinful creation.He's the Highest and believes that He is better than us all(which is true).thats just my take on the situation.



point taken*





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