PDA

View Full Version : Do you drink beer?



Pages : [1] 2

topherstyles
06-22-2007, 01:03 PM
Do you?














I know this man(who is white) whos church I used to go to mens Bible Study. I don't go any more tho.....

I work at a grocery store, and he comes in and buys beer and ciggerretes every now and then. I don't say anything about it.

Now he used to do crack or dope, but his wife prayed for him for years, and God delivered him-----long story short he is a nice guy, and a devout christian. BUT because he smokes and drinks, dose that make him not a christian? Is this drinking beer while being a christian a "white" thing?

OrthodoX
06-22-2007, 01:12 PM
Do you?














I know this man(who is white) whos church I used to go to mens Bible Study. I don't go any more tho.....

I work at a grocery store, and he comes in and buys beer and ciggerretes every now and then. I don't say anything about it.

Now he used to do crack or dope, but his wife prayed for him for years, and God delivered him-----long story short he is a nice guy, and a devout christian. BUT because he smokes and drinks, dose that make him not a christian? Is this drinking beer while being a christian a "white" thing?

I know people of all races that like to drink beer or wine or whatever and they are Christians. There is nothing wrong with alcohol itself, it is all about how YOU use it. God's creation is beautiful and in that creation he has provided all sorts of pleasures and gifts, as well as tools and helps. None of these are bad in and of themselves.

Sex is a great thing, when enjoyed within God's creational and covenantal context. Abuse of this great thing is destructive.

Alcohol is also part of God's creation. It is spoken of throughout scripture, sometimes in a positive light, sometimes in a negative one. Is this because God sometimes thought alcohol was a good thing and okay for his humanity to enjoy and at other times thought it was a sin? I dont believe God can be so capricious.

A better explaination would be that Alcohol was given as a gift to humanity, since the fall we can now, and often times do, abuse this gift...the results are tragic.

But as Christians we can again enjoy alcohol and use it correctly, and indeed if we do this it is a testimony to the world.

Shalom-

DoX

king neb
06-22-2007, 01:16 PM
Dox,

I'll drink to that....hahaha. Good word.

Bottom line - Scripture is our guide in ethics and Scripture does not prohibit alcohol consumption. It's just that simple.

WhyMe
06-22-2007, 01:20 PM
Is the alcohol today the same as wine in the bible?

son of man
06-22-2007, 01:29 PM
Is the alcohol today the same as wine in the bible?not even close, besides often times whenever the bible speaks of "wine" it's actually referring to non-fermented grape juice.

the bible doesn't explicitly say not to drink alchohol but it does warn against it. but at the end of the day, folks are gonna do what they want. i won't say that doesn't make them a christian but it could cause their brother to stumble. i'd never tell anyone it's ok to drink.

Cowboy
06-22-2007, 01:29 PM
Is the alcohol today the same as wine in the bible?

Probably not exactly the same because of how it's mass produced, but you'll notice that the wedding Jesus performed his first miracle at....some of them were already drunk. And they said(paraphrased) "Normally you'll serve the good wine first, and serve the cheap wine once everyone is drunk". So, the wine back then got people drunk, just like it can now. Only thing I've seen the Bible say against drinking is to not get drunk. And to watch who you do what around so that you don't cause another to stumble. But drinking beer or wine will not cause you to lose your salvation.

WhyMe
06-22-2007, 01:30 PM
Shouldn't Christians avoid this apperance of evil? Even if it is consumed in moderation, there is definately an apperance of evil if somebody has alcohol in their hand and the bible is clear that Christians should avoid the apperance of evil.

Cowboy
06-22-2007, 01:31 PM
not even close, besides often times whenever the bible speaks of "wine" it's actually referring to non-fermented grape juice.


As far as I've ever seen, that's never been proven. But, if you have proof, I'll look at it. :biggrin:

Gloria
06-22-2007, 01:36 PM
Do you?














I know this man(who is white) whos church I used to go to mens Bible Study. I don't go any more tho.....

I work at a grocery store, and he comes in and buys beer and ciggerretes every now and then. I don't say anything about it.

Now he used to do crack or dope, but his wife prayed for him for years, and God delivered him-----long story short he is a nice guy, and a devout christian. BUT because he smokes and drinks, dose that make him not a christian? Is this drinking beer while being a christian a "white" thing?


It's SO funny to me that you've asked this question. I've noticed the same thing honestly. At my last church, pred black, if someone even THINKS they might have seen you, with something that remotely resembles a can of beer or drink (like a mixed drink at Applebee's), you're salvation comes into question.

At the end of the day though, I think it runs down denominational lines more than racial lines though. The SBC, which is pred white is NOT down for drinking on any level, while some of my PCA brethren (also pred white) may have a glass of wine (or beer) or two several times a month. It's about views on conscience and Christian liberty, I think.

Jeffr0cks
06-22-2007, 01:40 PM
the psalms says wine makes you glad... hmmmm

Deadmanwalking
06-22-2007, 01:40 PM
Toward the end of proverbs (I can't remember off the top) Solomon (by wisdom from God) states to reserve strong drink for the elderly/dying. Medicinal use.

Also, when the bible speaks of wine, it is fermented. Check your sources. Noah drank and was drunk. Other people in the NT drank and were merry (buzzed). Proverbs said nothing against drinking but made many quotes concerning being a drunkard. Also, there is no scientific evidence to show that unfermented grape juice promotes digestive health. Wine is what helps. Therefore, when Paul states to have a little wine with a meal to help digestion, he was giving directions: it's okay...in moderation.



BUT, nowadays, drinking is synonomous with sin so it's better to avoid it altogether IMO. I'm just saying it's not a sin.

Pc.

Quiet storm
06-22-2007, 01:40 PM
The SBC, which is pred white is NOT down for drinking on any level,

Thats true I went to a Southern Baptist College and the dude whose dorm room was next to mine got kicked out of school cause he was at a party where there was drinking. He didnt drink himself but they kicked him out because he was "around drinkers". If they would have seen my family at my family reunion I probably would have been kicked out too. :swoon:

king neb
06-22-2007, 01:40 PM
not even close, besides often times whenever the bible speaks of "wine" it's actually referring to non-fermented grape juice.

That is false, son of man. God ok'd the use of "strong drink", which every Hebrew lexicon i have read states was highly intoxicating, hence the reason it is translated as "strong" drink.

king neb
06-22-2007, 01:42 PM
Thats true I went to a Southern Baptist College and the dude whose dorm room was next to mine got kicked out of school cause he was at a party where there was drinking. He didnt drink himself but they kicked him out because he was "around drinkers".

that is insane. That wasn't Boyce College was it?

Gloria
06-22-2007, 01:42 PM
not even close, besides often times whenever the bible speaks of "wine" it's actually referring to non-fermented grape juice.

the bible doesn't explicitly say not to drink alchohol but it does warn against it. but at the end of the day, folks are gonna do what they want. i won't say that doesn't make them a christian but it could cause their brother to stumble. i'd never tell anyone it's ok to drink.

I agree. I'd never TELL someone to drink. I'd point them to the word. I also wouldn't try to bind their conscience by telling them not to, only the word should do that. I'd tell them to consider their witness, their background with alcohol, who they hang with on a regular basis, etc. At the end of the day, the word doesn't prohibit drinking alcohol, so who am I to do it? Now GETTING DRUNK is something completely different. Then we have to talk!

Also, how do we know that "wine" in the Bible is not referring to actual wine?

son of man
06-22-2007, 01:43 PM
As far as I've ever seen, that's never been proven. But, if you have proof, I'll look at it. :biggrin:the greek word translated "wine" in the NT can refer to fermented or unfermented grape juice. the context is what distinguishes or suggests one over the other. so whenever the bible speaks of Jesus turning water into wine, that doesn't mean that Jesus turned water into alcoholic drink.

Quiet storm
06-22-2007, 01:44 PM
that is insane. That wasn't Boyce College was it?

Yup it was Boyce.

Deadmanwalking
06-22-2007, 01:45 PM
Hey, neb and I agree on something. :D

WhyMe
06-22-2007, 01:47 PM
1 Tim 5:23

No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.


The water back then was unclean to drink and made people sick(as we see here with Timothy), so wine was the recommended drink because it was cleaner.

Cowboy
06-22-2007, 01:48 PM
the greek word translated "wine" in the NT can refer to fermented or unfermented grape juice. the context is what distinguishes or suggests one over the other. so whenever the bible speaks of Jesus turning water into wine, that doesn't mean that Jesus turned water into alcoholic drink.

It doesn't mean that, but the story itself implies that it was the same kind of drink(but better) that the guests had already been drinking and got DRUNK on. I'd say it would be pretty rare to see a translation where juice was meant instead of wine.

Gloria
06-22-2007, 01:49 PM
the greek word translated "wine" in the NT can refer to fermented or unfermented grape juice. the context is what distinguishes or suggests one over the other. so whenever the bible speaks of Jesus turning water into wine, that doesn't mean that Jesus turned water into alcoholic drink.


So then maybe he did, or maybe he didn't...considering the context, there is a bigger chance that he probably did being that it was a wedding celebration, no?

king neb
06-22-2007, 01:52 PM
Hey, neb and I agree on something. :D

hey, see there. Beer has brought unity between two brothers. lol.

Actually, i'm half-way serious with that, because if we are going to forget what the Bible says and make empirical arguments, than here is one of HUNDREDS of empirical evidences where beer brought about something good.

Yet, why is that that those who argue empirically would not accept this as an argument? The irony.

Again, bottom line - Scripture allows alcohol assumption. Now, we can either rest in His wisdom or our own.

phil
06-22-2007, 01:54 PM
i drink wine and beer

i drink moderately and i am not a drunk

do i drink in front of alcoholics? no

i dont eat cake in front of gluttons either

Jesus drank. scripture doesnt ever warn against drinking, it warns against drinking to much... just like eating to much junk food

Wine is not much different then it was in scripture

now, distilled alcohole is different... i will have a mixed drink every once in a while.... but you gotta be careful with that stuff

phil
06-22-2007, 01:56 PM
the "culture" argument always cracks me up

we got much more gluttons in our culture then drunks

if you wanna be "wise" in our culture, cut McDs, cake .... ect

in scripture, they had drunks as well

be sensative to those who are watching, no doubt

but dont make up laws that arent there

son of man
06-22-2007, 01:58 PM
So then maybe he did, or maybe he didn't...considering the context, there is a bigger chance that he probably did being that it was a wedding celebration, no?given all the scriptures against drunkeness, i would conclude otherwise. if we assume that the guests were already well drunken by the time they ran out of wine, then Jesus turning water into even more alcohol would cause Jesus to support drunkeness, which we know isn't true.

besides, we didn't have any alcohol at our wedding and we enjoyed ourself and had a good time. we made toasts with sparkling grape juice:)

phil
06-22-2007, 02:02 PM
drunkeness in your interpretation, or the actual meaning of the word

my boss might get buzzed every few years at a wedding, but he is hardly thought of as a "drunkard"

i think you are reading the bible with a 21 century southern baptist mindset

not a 1 century hebrew mindset

for instance, the critics called jesus a "drunkard" <<---probably not cause of grape juicy juice

nazarites, specifically didnt drink wine or shave (as opposed to the norm)

son of man
06-22-2007, 02:05 PM
drunkeness in your interpretation, or the actual meaning of the wordneither, i was just building off what cowboy said.

phil
06-22-2007, 02:08 PM
no doubt famo!

and if you dont drink, thats awesome

but keep in mind, feasting and drinking at a celebration is not what defines a glutton and drunkard

na mean?

Gloria
06-22-2007, 02:18 PM
given all the scriptures against drunkeness, i would conclude otherwise. if we assume that the guests were already well drunken by the time they ran out of wine, then Jesus turning water into even more alcohol would cause Jesus to support drunkeness, which we know isn't true.

besides, we didn't have any alcohol at our wedding and we enjoyed ourself and had a good time. we made toasts with sparkling grape juice:)

Got it. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself at your wedding. :jiggy:

If you don't drink, cool. Your decision. Drinking is certainly not a regular part of my lifestyle either. The point remains that drinking alcohol is not prohibited by scripture. I'm with C-Tide on this one on the point that we shouldn't add laws that aren't there.

king neb
06-22-2007, 02:23 PM
“Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object that is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we prohibit and abolish women? The sun, moon, and stars have been worshipped. Shall we pluck them out of the sky?” — Martin Luther

sonshine
06-22-2007, 02:31 PM
its not the alcohal consumption thats bad its the Drunkedness thats bad. a glass of wine is cool if youre of age. or even a beer(i wouldnt when i get 21) its just people's personal Convictions on the subject

BondServant
06-22-2007, 02:59 PM
the greek word translated "wine" in the NT can refer to fermented or unfermented grape juice. the context is what distinguishes or suggests one over the other. so whenever the bible speaks of Jesus turning water into wine, that doesn't mean that Jesus turned water into alcoholic drink.

Can you prove this?

phil
06-22-2007, 03:00 PM
na, but we should take his word for it over the 1000s of translators over the years

:eeK:

son of man
06-22-2007, 03:11 PM
a couple of weeks ago one of my best friends came to town with his cousin. i picked them up and brought them back to my crib. they had been and were still drinking. whenever my boy's cousin found out i was saved and a minister he started getting convicted. i didn't say anything about drinking. but the conviction of the Holy Spirit was strong in there. i could feel him pulling on me for a word. come to find out he was a christian who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit but was backslidden.

long story short, i was able to minister to him, encourage him in the Lord and pray for him. he was able to see someone who had been there and done that but is now set free from alcohol in the name of Jesus! now if i had been drinking with them (even socially) i wouldn't have had that same witness. the spirit of conviction would have been replaced by a spirit of acceptance and endorsement.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Shouldn't Christians avoid this apperance of evil? Even if it is consumed in moderation, there is definately an apperance of evil if somebody has alcohol in their hand and the bible is clear that Christians should avoid the apperance of evil.

So when you read of Christ drinking wine(he was called a winebibber), or Jesus turning water into wine for the guests(encouraging them), or Yahweh giving Israel alcohol(wine and strong drink) as a blessing, that this could be seen as evil? Would you have run up to Jesus and told him to put that wine down because it had the appearance of evil?


As for the OP, I enjoy fine glasses of wine. I enjoy a ice cold beer(Killians or Sam Adams), and occasionally something stronger(mostly vodka).

clayfilms
06-22-2007, 03:21 PM
below is a link to a dope sermon on the "water into wine" miracle

http://sgcitychurch.org/pages/index.php?pID=495

click the link and scroll down to:

2/25/2007 Toby Kurth "Lord and Servant" John 2:1-11 MP3

BondServant
06-22-2007, 03:26 PM
Here's a thread that should help.

http://holycultureradio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10574&highlight=Beer

Gloria
06-22-2007, 03:27 PM
a couple of weeks ago one of my best friends came to town with his cousin. i picked them up and brought them back to my crib. they had been and were still drinking. whenever my boy's cousin found out i was saved and a minister he started getting convicted. i didn't say anything about drinking. but the conviction of the Holy Spirit was strong in there. i could feel him pulling on me for a word. come to find out he was a christian who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit but was backslidden.

long story short, i was able to minister to him, encourage him in the Lord and pray for him. he was able to see someone who had been there and done that but is now set free from alcohol in the name of Jesus! now if i had been drinking with them (even socially) i wouldn't have had that same witness. the spirit of conviction would have been replaced by a spirit of acceptance and endorsement.

Biblically, you did the right thing by not drinking in front of them. I agree that it would have harmed your witness greatly. I don't think anyone has endorsed drinking in the company of unbelievers or struggling Christians.

king neb
06-22-2007, 03:29 PM
a couple of weeks ago one of my best friends came to town with his cousin. i picked them up and brought them back to my crib. they had been and were still drinking. whenever my boy's cousin found out i was saved and a minister he started getting convicted. i didn't say anything about drinking. but the conviction of the Holy Spirit was strong in there. i could feel him pulling on me for a word. come to find out he was a christian who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit but was backslidden.

son of man,

this is an empiricial argument and thus a weak one. here's why: for every experience you give, i can counter it with 10 experiences of how drinking alcohol with someone produced good.

One example: my father-in-law

My father-in-law supposedly "accepted Christ" after being visited by an evangelism team from my old southern baptist church. the first thing they told him he had to do in order to join the church was stop drinking beer and stop smoking. He asked why? They said, "those acts are sinful and these are the rules of our church." no bible. it didn't make sense to him.

He left, and it left a sore spot between him and 'Church' ever since...it was hard to get him to talk about spiritual matters....until thanksgiving at my house around 5 years ago. We sat down for a meal, i prayed (much to the displeasure of my atheist mother-in-law) and immediately after the prayer, i walked over to him and handed him a Corona.

it completely floored him and it ended up with us having a very good conversation about morality/ethics and the standard for such. It completely floored my atheist mother-in-law as well. She was the woman who once threatened me if i ever brought up the name of Jesus in front of her....she now asks about my speaking engagements and reads articles on my site and we have mature, calm, profitable discussion.

One beer completely broke down some barriers we had - barriers caused by unbiblical laws. And i have heard TONS of these kinds of testimonies.

So, where does that empirical argument get us now?

Follow God, Not Man
06-22-2007, 03:30 PM
I don't drink beer, I find the taste disgusting :elvis:

BondServant
06-22-2007, 03:31 PM
Biblically, you did the right thing by not drinking in front of them. I agree that it would have harmed your witness greatly. I don't think anyone has endorsed drinking in the company of unbelievers or struggling Christians.

I'd drink in front of an unbeliever. I wouldn't do it in front of struggling Christian, but I don't see why I can't drink in front of someone else. The Messiah was out in public drinking. The people of Israel were in public drinking.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 03:33 PM
I don't drink beer, I find the taste disgusting :elvis:

Isn't it forbidden in SDA?

Gloria
06-22-2007, 03:38 PM
below is a link to a dope sermon on the "water into wine" miracle

http://sgcitychurch.org/pages/index.php?pID=495

click the link and scroll down to:

2/25/2007 Toby Kurth "Lord and Servant" John 2:1-11 MP3


*listening*

Cowboy
06-22-2007, 03:38 PM
given all the scriptures against drunkeness, i would conclude otherwise. if we assume that the guests were already well drunken by the time they ran out of wine, then Jesus turning water into even more alcohol would cause Jesus to support drunkeness, which we know isn't true.

besides, we didn't have any alcohol at our wedding and we enjoyed ourself and had a good time. we made toasts with sparkling grape juice:)

Not all the guests were drunk, but, the person actually used the example that the better wine was brought out first normally, and then once they were drunk(inferring that they could get drunk off the better wine) they would normally serve the cheap wine. But that doesn't mean that Jesus would be supporting getting drunk. That would be like saying, if God leads a woman into my life, that he's supporting me fornicating with her. Extreme example? Not really. Everything can be abused and done in excess, whether it's drinking, smoking, our relationship with the opposite sex. God's intention is never to encourage sin, but we have to choose not to sin in the situation we're in.

That's cool that you had a nice wedding. I've been in about 10, and I've been to both kind. Both can be fun. But it is annoying when there's those who go overboard with the drinking. But I am seriously glad a great wedding, that is definitely a special event and should be enjoyed. :)

I still claim though, that until proven otherwise, the wine that's referred to in Jesus' time and throughout most of the Bible is not juice. It's wine.

son of man
06-22-2007, 03:38 PM
Can you prove this?look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

Gloria
06-22-2007, 03:40 PM
I'd drink in front of an unbeliever. I wouldn't do it in front of struggling Christian, but I don't see why I can't drink in front of someone else. The Messiah was out in public drinking. The people of Israel were in public drinking.


That's cool...I just don't know that I would. I have in the past, but I don't think I would in the future. Keep in mind, though that I don't even drink like that. My last drink was last December and before that 2003....so yeah.

Gloria
06-22-2007, 03:41 PM
look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

huh?

BondServant
06-22-2007, 03:44 PM
look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

What does that prove?

The greek for wine in the wedding account is the same greek word Paul used when he told the ephesians to not be drunk with wine. They are the same greek words. How can you be drunk of off unfermented wine.

And can you exegetically prove that the wine in the wedding was unfermented?

Cowboy
06-22-2007, 03:47 PM
look at the context of lk 1:15 vs. lk 5:37. the same greek word is used in each passage. however the context of 1:15 suggests fermented wine b/c of the reference to strong drink and the inference of holiness on the part of john the baptist.

the context of 5:37 suggests unfermented wine b/c of the reference to the wine being "new" or recently born, which would have been before fermentation could take place. similarly, whenever Jesus turned the water into wine, the wine was likewise "new" in the sense that it hadn't yet had time to ferment.

No, you can't compare "new" to recently born and unfermented. It's clear that the wine given to the guests could've made them drunk. That's not a very strong argument for what you're saying. Didn't you just point out that the two words for wine were the same in both passages in luke, and that it was referring to strong drink(aka fermented). And then you say it was unfermented because it didn't have time to ferment? Wouldn't it be more of a miracle to create something that had fermented?

son of man
06-22-2007, 03:48 PM
son of man,

this is an empiricial argument and thus a weak one. here's why: for every experience you give, i can counter it with 10 experiences of how drinking alcohol with someone produced good.

One example: my father-in-law

My father-in-law supposedly "accepted Christ" after being visited by an evangelism team from my old southern baptist church. the first thing they told him he had to do in order to join the church was stop drinking beer and stop smoking. He asked why? They said, "those acts are sinful and these are the rules of our church." no bible. it didn't make sense to him.

He left, and it left a sore spot between him and 'Church' ever since...it was hard to get him to talk about spiritual matters....until thanksgiving at my house around 5 years ago. We sat down for a meal, i prayed (much to the displeasure of my atheist mother-in-law) and immediately after the prayer, i walked over to him and handed him a Corona.

it completely floored him and it ended up with us having a very good conversation about morality/ethics and the standard for such. It completely floored my atheist mother-in-law as well. She was the woman who once threatened me if i ever brought up the name of Jesus in front of her....she now asks about my speaking engagements and reads articles on my site and we have mature, calm, profitable discussion.

One beer completely broke down some barriers we had - barriers caused by unbiblical laws. And i have heard TONS of these kinds of testimonies.

So, where does that empirical argument get us now?yo neb, i'm not saying good things can't come from this or that. i'm talking about standing up for holiness like a prophet of God should. we're talking about the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. my message isn't it's ok to drink as long as you do it in moderation. my message is i've got something that's better than any alcoholic beverage could provide (eph 5).

son of man
06-22-2007, 03:51 PM
What does that prove?

The greek for wine in the wedding account is the same greek word Paul used when he told the ephesians to not be drunk with wine. They are the same greek words. How can you be drunk of off unfermented wine.

And can you exegetically prove that the wine in the wedding was unfermented?i think you're misunderstanding what i'm trying to say. i'm saying that in the greek, the word translated wine can refer to fermented OR unfermented grape juice. i'm saying that the way you distinguish which is which is by the context.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 03:52 PM
yo neb, i'm not saying good things can't come from this or that. i'm talking about standing up for holiness like a prophet of God should. we're talking about the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. my message isn't it's ok to drink as long as you do it in moderation. my message is i've got something that's better than any alcoholic beverage could provide (eph 5).

How does that prove that one shouldn't drink? Okay, everyone here agrees that Christ is better than all that. He's better than sex, should I stop having sex with my wife? He's better than food, should I stop eating? Christ, THE HOLY ONE, drank wine. Yahweh gave alcohol as a covenant blessing to Israel.

So who's more holy, you because you abstain from alcohol, or Jesus the Christ, who was accused of being a winebibber?

king neb
06-22-2007, 03:55 PM
yo neb, i'm not saying good things can't come from this or that. i'm talking about standing up for holiness like a prophet of God should. we're talking about the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. my message isn't it's ok to drink as long as you do it in moderation. my message is i've got something that's better than any alcoholic beverage could provide (eph 5).

son of man,

now you're changing topics. No one here is arguing for the superiority of beer over Jesus. That would be insane.

Let's get back to your assertion that wine was not the same as it is today. You have not proven this. You've done everything but prove this from Scripture.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 03:57 PM
i think you're misunderstanding what i'm trying to say. i'm saying that in the greek, the word translated wine can refer to fermented OR unfermented grape juice. i'm saying that the way you distinguish which is which is by the context.

I read you loud and clear fam. That's why I asked how could you come to that conclusion about the wine at Cana exegetically? Nothing in the texts gives you the right to say it was unfermented, you have to read that into the text.

The word in question is oinos, a dynamic equivalent for yayin(OT). It appears 140 times in the OT, and it always refers to alcoholic beverages. Same as with Oinos. You can't get drunk off of grape juice.

As for your luke passages. How do you get from the context that this wasn't actual wine? The greek for new there is "kainos" meaning fresh. Where do you get unfermented from this word? Sometimes when I don't drink the wine from weeks before, it sits and gets bad, so I pour it out and go get some new wine, fresh new wine.

Now, how can you prove from the context that oinos here is unfermented wine?

son of man
06-22-2007, 04:04 PM
son of man,

now you're changing topics. No one here is arguing for the superiority of beer over Jesus. That would be insane.

Let's get back to your assertion that wine was not the same as it is today. You have not proven this. You've done everything but prove this from Scripture.i didn't give the testimony to show that Jesus is better than beer. i wanted that brother to understand that if you have the Holy Spirit, you don't need to drink. back in the gap alcohol was called "spirits" and for good reason. nowadays Christians have the ability to be baptized with the HOly Spirit. he needed to see that being filled with the Holy Spirit was way better than being filled with "spirits". that wouldn't have been possible had I handed him a Corona.

djHeir
06-22-2007, 04:05 PM
Here's another excellent sermon about Christian liberty that fits very well with this discussion. I highly recommend it:
http://journey.monkcms.net/sermon/christian-liberty

phil
06-22-2007, 04:05 PM
yo SOM

do you eat cake? read back your argument and switch the words beer/wine with cake/ice cream.

change the works "drink" to read "eat sweets" and change the words "drunk" to "glutton"

it doesnt make sense, and neither does your argument

agree, John the Baptised didnt drink... but Jesus did

you can drink and be a holy prophet, JESUS DID!!!!!!!!!!! are you saying ou are holier then Jesus? are you saying "avoiding alcohole is better then Jesus"????

i think the lack of example of drinking in moderation has caused just as many or more people to fall into abuse of alcohole, then drinking in moderation

the false laws imposed on people are legalistic and not of God, read the bible!

holiness is living by the standards of God, not the standards of man

do you know way over weight christians??? that is equal to drunk christians

both equally sinful.....


do you know christians that eat cake? that is equal to christians that drink

both innocent

king neb
06-22-2007, 04:07 PM
well, again son of man, no one here is arguing that you "NEED" to drink. I'm not saying that. Bondservant is not saying that. NO ONE is saying that.

What we are asking of you is to support your claim that wine was not the same as it is today - plain and simple.

phil
06-22-2007, 04:08 PM
i didn't give the testimony to show that Jesus is better than beer. i wanted that brother to understand that if you have the Holy Spirit, you don't need to drink. back in the gap alcohol was called "spirits" and for good reason. nowadays Christians have the ability to be baptized with the HOly Spirit. he needed to see that being filled with the Holy Spirit was way better than being filled with "spirits". that wouldn't have been possible had I handed him a Corona.

you dont need to drink AMEN!!!! you dont need to eat cake :)

lol @ the "spirits" comment :jimlad: SMH... i hope you dont drink sprite... i hope you dont use MS Word

yo, miller lite in hand and bible in lap... my favorite combo! :tongue:

son of man
06-22-2007, 04:16 PM
I read you loud and clear fam. That's why I asked how could you come to that conclusion about the wine at Cana exegetically? Nothing in the texts gives you the right to say it was unfermented, you have to read that into the text.

The word in question is oinos, a dynamic equivalent for yayin(OT). It appears 140 times in the OT, and it always refers to alcoholic beverages. Same as with Oinos. You can't get drunk off of grape juice.

As for your luke passages. How do you get from the context that this wasn't actual wine? The greek for new there is "kainos" meaning fresh. Where do you get unfermented from this word? Sometimes when I don't drink the wine from weeks before, it sits and gets bad, so I pour it out and go get some new wine, fresh new wine.

Now, how can you prove from the context that oinos here is unfermented wine?from my understanding of the fermentation process, the reason why you put "new" wine into new wine skins was so when it eventually did ferment, the new wine skins would have room to stretch out.

you wouldn't put "new" wine that wasn't fermented into old wineskins b/c whenever the fermentation process began the old skins (which were already stretched out due to fermentation) would have stretched out even more causing them to burst.

the fact of the matter is that in the greek, there aren't seperate words for unfermented and fermented wine. there isn't a greek word for boone's farm and another one for welches. you just have the same word used to describe both. therefore depending on the context, you make conclusions as to which one is referred to. that's sorta unfortunate and causes much confusion. however, that's a natural limitation of the greek language.

phil
06-22-2007, 04:16 PM
yo BTW!!!

Son of Man, i am not bashin you.... 5 years ago... i said the same tihngs

praise God for his freedom from man made laws

perhaps you will always be convinced of your stance, don't go against your conscience

perhaps you will hear us out

either way, i respect you & hope there is not hard feelings!

*tsssssssssss-crack* "This Bud's for you!" *gulp* *gulp* "ahhhh"

Lynaz24
06-22-2007, 04:16 PM
Okay here's a good summary of this thread.

It's not against the scripture to partake of fermented drinks. The bible is against being in a state of drunkeness, characterized as a drunkard or using alcohol as a crutch or an escape from life's problems i.e. making it an idol b/c you are putting it above seeking God for peace and release.

If you choose to partake of fermented drinks, accorsing to Romans be careful that you don't cause someone to stumble by what you enjoy. Meaning if you see nothing wrong with drinking, but if you are in the company of people who are not mature enough to understand your biblical point of view...DONT DRINK..

If you are in the presence of unsaved and they are getting tanked and you are hoping to witness to them and they are getting drunk..Probably not the best idea to be drinking while your witnessing...

Rely on the spirit and the scriptures and lean not on your own understanding..

So endeth the lesson.:cute:

BondServant
06-22-2007, 04:18 PM
Son of man,

Here are some examples from scripture.

God gives wine to Israel as a Covenant Blessing:

Gen 27:28
May God give you of the dew of heaven
and of the fatness of the earth
and plenty of grain and wine.

Deut. 7:13
He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you.


Deut. 11:14
He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you.


Deut.33:28

28So Israel lived in safety,
Jacob lived alone,[a]
in a land of grain and wine,
whose heavens drop down dew.

It was also used as an acceptable offering to God

Num. 15:5-10
and you shall offer with the burnt offering, or for the sacrifice, a quarter of a hin of wine for the drink offering for each lamb. 6Or for a ram, you shall offer for a grain offering two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with a third of a hin of oil. 7And for the drink offering you shall offer a third of a hin of wine, a pleasing aroma to the LORD. 8And when you offer a bull as a burnt offering or sacrifice, to fulfill a vow or for peace offerings to the LORD, 9then one shall offer with the bull a grain offering of three tenths of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with half a hin of oil. 10And you shall offer for the drink offering half a hin of wine, as a food offering, a pleasing aroma to the LORD.

Here God encourages it's use

Deut. 14:26
and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

phil
06-22-2007, 04:18 PM
one more point, shouldnt we perform our sacriments the way Jesus instructed us?

communion with out wine?

JARZJR
06-22-2007, 04:19 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with the majority on this one. As long as you are of legal drinking age in your country and you do not get drunk then you are not in sin. However, you could cause a weaker brother to sin...

Question: At what point is one considered drunk? Is a buzz drunk?

phil
06-22-2007, 04:19 PM
Okay here's a good summary of this thread.

It's not against the scripture to partake of fermented drinks. The bible is against being in a state of drunkeness, characterized as a drunkard or using alcohol as a crutch or an escape from life's problems i.e. making it an idol b/c you are putting it above seeking God for peace and release.

If you choose to partake of fermented drinks, accorsing to Romans be careful that you don't cause someone to stumble by what you enjoy. Meaning if you see nothing wrong with drinking, but if you are in the company of people who are not mature enough to understand your biblical point of view...DONT DRINK..

If you are in the presence of unsaved and they are getting tanked and you are hoping to witness to them and they are getting drunk..Probably not the best idea to be drinking while your witnessing...

Rely on the spirit and the scriptures and lean not on your own understanding..

So endeth the lesson.:cute:

amen, lets also make sure we apply this to cake and fast food

ya'll folks that be eating a big mac in front of really fat people are messed up!

phil
06-22-2007, 04:20 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with the majority on this one. As long as you are of legal drinking age in your country and you do not get drunk then you are not in sin. However, you could cause a weaker brother to sin...

Question: At what point is one considered drunk? Is a buzz drunk?

good point! if you are under 21, you are breaking the law

buzz = drunk? no

just like a gut aint gluttony

BondServant
06-22-2007, 04:21 PM
from my understanding of the fermentation process, the reason why you put "new" wine into new wine skins was so when it eventually did ferment, the new wine skins would have room to stretch out.

you wouldn't put "new" wine that wasn't fermented into old wineskins b/c whenever the fermentation process began the old skins (which were already stretched out due to fermentation) would have stretched out even more causing them to burst.

the fact of the matter is that in the greek, there aren't seperate words for unfermented and fermented wine. there isn't a greek word for boone's farm and another one for welches. you just have the same word used to describe both. therefore depending on the context, you make conclusions as to which one is referred to. that's sorta unfortunate and causes much confusion. however, that's a natural limitation of the greek language.


Can you point to an account where oinon doesn't mean alcoholic wine? Cause even in this case, their goal is to get it fermented.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 04:22 PM
one more point, shouldnt we perform our sacriments the way Jesus instructed us?

communion with out wine?

We use real wine.

Lynaz24
06-22-2007, 04:25 PM
Question though....I'm all for beer and wine and mild mixed drinks..

But..I'm not sure if straight shots of GIN or Patron fall under this liberty b/c I'm not sure one drinks HARD HARD liquor to enjoy the taste..Is it just me??

Are we in agreement with one having a beer and the other a shot of yak..lol...cuz I draw the line there..

BondServant
06-22-2007, 04:29 PM
Question though....I'm all for beer and wine and mild mixed drinks..

But..I'm not sure if straight shots of GIN or Patron fall under this liberty b/c I'm not sure one drinks HARD HARD liquor to enjoy the taste..Is it just me??

Are we in agreement with one having a beer and the other a shot of yak..lol...cuz I draw the line there..

Well, I don't make my arguments based on it being a liberty issue if God's word is clear. I drink vodka, gin, cognac, rum and scotch. Don't get me wrong, it's an occasional thing and I'm not just tossin them back, but I do drink them.

Here Yahweh encourages its use.

Deut. 14:26
and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Lynaz24
06-22-2007, 04:35 PM
Well, I don't make my arguments based on it being a liberty issue if God's word is clear. I drink vodka, gin, cognac, rum and scotch. Don't get me wrong, it's an occasional thing and I'm not just tossin them back, but I do drink them.

Here Yahweh encourages its use.

Deut. 14:26
and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Well liberty was the wrong word to use..umm..Do you drink the above straight, mixed with other things..coke, fruit juice etc.. If not, do you enjoy the taste of straight Gin? Cuz I was a heavy drinker back in the BC days and I don't remember that tasting too good...BUT..a Mojito is bangin:biggrin:

phil
06-22-2007, 04:36 PM
it taste like cleaning agents

Lynaz24
06-22-2007, 04:37 PM
that liquor is straight from the pits..Along with Everclear..lol

Cyple
06-22-2007, 04:38 PM
I drink occasionally. I don't see the big deal. I am an adult mature Christian. I am not an impressionable child anymore. If there are some secular people that can handle drinking, how much more power do we have as Christians?

I think if a lot of Christians weren't as uptight as many of us are, we might win more souls.

Don't you know how good a glass or 2 of beer is after a hard days work? Try it you might see your stress levels go down a bit.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 04:40 PM
Well liberty was the wrong word to use..umm..Do you drink the above straight, mixed with other things..coke, fruit juice etc.. If not, do you enjoy the taste of straight Gin? Cuz I was a heavy drinker back in the BC days and I don't remember that tasting too good...BUT..a Mojito is bangin:biggrin:

Well, with Gin, i like a Tom Collins. I used to kill Gin back in H.S. So, no, I don't really like it unless it's a Tom Collins. It's rare(but it is the season for it now) that I drink that.

I drink Vodka with fruity juices.

I like the taste of cognac.

I like the taste of scotch, but I dilute it cause it can burn the nose hairs. :jiggy:

I have a couple decanters and I enjoy some cognac or some scotch before going to bed.

Nothin like a glass of wine with a steak or some lamb though. It's the best.

Jeffr0cks
06-22-2007, 04:40 PM
Here Yahweh encourages its use.

Deut. 14:26
and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

I'm going to chill and enjoy the night with my favorite oxen... lol :cute:

Jeffr0cks
06-22-2007, 04:41 PM
BUT..a Mojito is bangin:biggrin:

that's a gay drink is it not? :wubclub:

Lynaz24
06-22-2007, 04:43 PM
I drink occasionally. I don't see the big deal. I am an adult mature Christian. I am not an impressionable child anymore. If there are some secular people that can handle drinking, how much more power do we have as Christians?

I think if a lot of Christians weren't as uptight as many of us are, we might win more souls.

Don't you know how good a glass or 2 of beer is after a hard days work? Try it you might see your stress levels go down a bit.

Wouldn't that fall into the category of gettin tipsy..I mean to drink for the taste of it is one thing..To drink fermented drinks for the purpose of relaxation, does that open another can o worms..I'm just asking..No beef

BondServant
06-22-2007, 04:43 PM
Don't you know how good a glass or 2 of beer is after a hard days work? Try it you might see your stress levels go down a bit.

There's nothin like a cold beer after a hard days work. Especially when you get done mowing the yard and your wife hands you a cold one. You pop that top and see that smoke(whatever that is) come out :biggrin: boy ain't nothin like that first swig. It goes down so smooth.

seal
06-22-2007, 04:44 PM
Well, I don't make my arguments based on it being a liberty issue if God's word is clear. I drink vodka, gin, cognac, rum and scotch. Don't get me wrong, it's an occasional thing and I'm not just tossin them back, but I do drink them.

Here Yahweh encourages its use.

Deut. 14:26
and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Yo,

This is soooo beautiful.... Yes.... the way you using that Law to dictate your worldview.... It's truely a thing of beauty.... :wubclub:

God's Law Rules,
seal

Lynaz24
06-22-2007, 04:44 PM
that's a gay drink is it not? :wubclub:

Na..That's a Island drink..Mad popular in Cuba and Southern MIA..LOL..What you trying to say..lol

BondServant
06-22-2007, 04:46 PM
Wouldn't that fall into the category of gettin tipsy..I mean to drink for the taste of it is one thing..To drink fermented drinks for the purpose of relaxation, does that open another can o worms..I'm just asking..No beef

Prov. 31:6-7
Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;[a]
7let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

Eccl. 10:19
wine gladdens life

phil
06-22-2007, 04:47 PM
or a beer with some fried food!

phil
06-22-2007, 04:51 PM
BTW:

don't drink beer out the can or bottle

pour it into a frozen glass (place glass in freezer 10 mins or more prior)

hold glass sideways so beer can pour without creating head (foam)

enjoy!

son of man
06-22-2007, 05:00 PM
Son of man,

Here are some examples from scripture.

God gives wine to Israel as a Covenant Blessing:

Gen 27:28
May God give you of the dew of heaven
and of the fatness of the earth
and plenty of grain and wine.

Deut. 7:13
He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you.


Deut. 11:14
He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you.


Deut.33:28

28So Israel lived in safety,
Jacob lived alone,[a]
in a land of grain and wine,
whose heavens drop down dew.

It was also used as an acceptable offering to God

Num. 15:5-10
and you shall offer with the burnt offering, or for the sacrifice, a quarter of a hin of wine for the drink offering for each lamb. 6Or for a ram, you shall offer for a grain offering two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with a third of a hin of oil. 7And for the drink offering you shall offer a third of a hin of wine, a pleasing aroma to the LORD. 8And when you offer a bull as a burnt offering or sacrifice, to fulfill a vow or for peace offerings to the LORD, 9then one shall offer with the bull a grain offering of three tenths of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with half a hin of oil. 10And you shall offer for the drink offering half a hin of wine, as a food offering, a pleasing aroma to the LORD.

Here God encourages it's use

Deut. 14:26
and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.all of those references have to deal with new, unfermented, freshly squeezed grape juice except for deut 14:26. i'll have to get back with ya on that particular scripture. :wink:

OrthodoX
06-22-2007, 05:01 PM
Any thoughts on my post? Do you all think I explain why the Bible (proverbs for example) presents alcohol in a positive and at times a negative light? Obviously alcohol can be used for good or for evil..as all things can be.

many Christians will say that they "don't judge" those who drink. By saying that they are inferring that drinking is not a good thing to do. Scripture however at times presents alcohol and its use as a good thing, a blessing in fact.

My pastor, friends from church and I often go out after church for a beer and those times are some of my favorite times of fellowship.

As far as avoiding the appearance of evil goes...

what is the biblical standard for evil? Is it really leaving it up to us to decide, or in other words, if someone is under the opinion that what you are doing is evil then you should not do that thing?

This does not make sense socially or biblically. In some cultures it is considered evil to teach that Jesus is King of the universe. Should we not bring the gosple to these people?

To avoid the appearance of evil is to avoid evil. To use and enjoy alcohol as God intended is not just "not sin" it is worship.

Shalom-

DoX

king neb
06-22-2007, 05:01 PM
There's nothin like a cold beer after a hard days work. Especially when you get done mowing the yard and your wife hands you a cold one. You pop that top and see that smoke(whatever that is) come out :biggrin: boy ain't nothin like that first swig. It goes down so smooth.

man, i'm sorry, but for some reason this post had me imaging christian beer commercials in my head. :biglaugh:

I'm thinking Revelation, where the horsemen are coming down on Anheuser Busch Clydesdales...hahaha...

OrthodoX
06-22-2007, 05:03 PM
man, i'm sorry, but for some reason this post had me imaging christian beer commercials in my head. :biglaugh:

I'm thinking Revelation, where the horsemen are coming down on Anheuser Busch Clydesdales...hahaha...


ha ha!! not a bad idea.

king neb
06-22-2007, 05:08 PM
To use and enjoy alcohol as God intended is not just "not sin" it is worship.

interesting thoughts here:

http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/rite-reasons/no-50-concerning-wine-and-beer-part-2/

he refers to wine as an "eschatological drink" because of it's symbolism throughout Scripture. As with any symbol, i think you can take something too far, but he makes a few legit observations here.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 05:11 PM
interesting thoughts here:

http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/rite-reasons/no-50-concerning-wine-and-beer-part-2/

he refers to wine as an "eschatological drink" because of it's symbolism throughout Scripture. As with any symbol, i think you can take something too far, but he makes a few legit observations here.

Wine is often used figuratively as the "wrath of God".

Cowboy
06-22-2007, 05:18 PM
all of those references have to deal with new, unfermented, freshly squeezed grape juice except for deut 14:26. i'll have to get back with ya on that particular scripture. :wink:

Was that you being serious or not? Those smileys throw me off every time. :biggrin:

But for real, I'd love to see where you came to that conclusion.

BondServant
06-22-2007, 05:31 PM
all of those references have to deal with new, unfermented, freshly squeezed grape juice except for deut 14:26. i'll have to get back with ya on that particular scripture. :wink:

I'll give you a couple of them that could be "freshly squeezed grape juice", but the one in Numbers isn't. Here it is seen as an acceptable offering to the Lord. Also see Ex. 29:40.

Melchizedek “brought bread and wine” for Abram and his companions (Gen. 14:18). He blessed them.

You still have yet to prove that wine today is different from then, and you still haven't proven that we're to abstain from alcohol.

Deadmanwalking
06-22-2007, 05:57 PM
I can understand the knee jerk reactions. Satan has intentionally perverted nearly every positive human pleasure. Sex is good. Satan makes the porn industry. Laughter is good, satan makes comedy central (in which the majority of the jokes are perverse). Food is good, satan makes mc Donald's. Alcohol is good, satan makes budweiser and all the other companies. He takes everything, pushes the envelope and encourages excess. Since we all see the negative effect of the excess, we assume that it must be absolutely negative with no possibility of purity.

Just dropping some more pennies.

Jeffr0cks
06-22-2007, 06:26 PM
Na..That's a Island drink..Mad popular in Cuba and Southern MIA..LOL..What you trying to say..lol

haha ok. Cuz my friends always tease my other friend cuz he like that stuff. And they always make fun on him because by saying its a gay drink.

king neb
06-22-2007, 06:31 PM
little word study research from BibleWorks 6.0:

Deuteronomy 14:23-26 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire- oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Notice two words – “wine” and “strong drink”.

Wine comes from the Hebrew yayin. Strong drink is from the word shekar.

Let’s look at Shekar for a second. According to the lexicons, the word means:

Whitaker – “intoxicating drink”

Strong’s – “strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor “

BDB – “intoxicating drink, strong drink”

The same two Hebrew words appear together in Is. 28.7:

Isaiah 28:7 These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed by wine, they stagger with strong drink, they reel in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.

How does a person stagger with grapejuice?

In the Septuagint, the greek word they used that is translated as “strong drink” is sikera.

Friberg – “strong drink, a sweet intoxicating beverage usually made from something other than grapes (e.g. barley beer)”

UBS – “strong drink”

Louw-Nida – “an intoxicating drink made from grain - 'beer.”

Thayer’s – “literally, `intoxicating' drink”

Folks, they didn’t translate it as “strong drink” for nothing.

The JPS Tanakh translates it:

TNK Deuteronomy 14:26 and spend the money on anything you want -- cattle, sheep, wine, or other intoxicant,

New Jerusalem Bible NJB Deuteronomy 14:26 there you may spend the money on whatever you like, oxen, sheep, wine, fermented liquor, anything you please.

NIV Deuteronomy 14:26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink

NET Deuteronomy 14:26 Then you may spend the money however you wish for cattle, sheep, wine, beer, or whatever you desire.

_______



Need i say anymore?

son of man
06-22-2007, 09:35 PM
I'll give you a couple of them that could be "freshly squeezed grape juice", but the one in Numbers isn't. Here it is seen as an acceptable offering to the Lord. Also see Ex. 29:40.

Melchizedek “brought bread and wine” for Abram and his companions (Gen. 14:18). He blessed them.

You still have yet to prove that wine today is different from then, and you still haven't proven that we're to abstain from alcohol.yeah, you're right. both numbers 15:5-10 and exodus 29:40 deal with fermented wine. however neither one of those gave instructions to drink them. they were to be used as a drink offering in sacrifice. however, that does bring up the question as to why the Lord would call for such? i'll have to dig a lil deeper into that.

as far as gen 14:18, you're right again that does deal with fermented wine as well. however the reason why Melchizedek probably brought Abraham fermented wine was b/c in those days there wasn't any refrigeration or any other means to keep grape juice from fermenting. so it would have probably been brought out of circumstance rather than promotion/endorsement.

concerning deut 14:26, you're right a third time, this was also fermented wine. however, the context has to do with the yearly tithe. isreal would meet at the tabernacle or temple and present their tithes to the Lord (if you don't believe in tithing, you can't use this scripture to support drinking alcohol). the isrealites were instructed to sell their tithes if they lived too far to carry their tithes to the tabernacle or temple. once they got to the feast, they would have used the money to, in effect, purchase the things they sold and then consume them in the presence of the Lord.

i lack a commentary on deut so i really can't say anything else concerning that verse. it does seem to suggest the use of wine or strong drink once a year and only in the presence of the Lord as an act of worship. but once again, to use such to support drinking socially in moderation is to take that passage out of context.

now don't misunderstand, when i said that wine today is different from biblical times, i was referring to potency. today much of our wine is stronger than biblical times just as today our strong drink is much stronger than then. a good example is weed. in the 70s many people smoked pot. but the pot today is far more potent b/c of all the extra things they add to it. but on the contrary, much of the wine drunk in biblical days was diluted to prevent intoxication.

also, i never said that the bible says not to drink alcohol. i said that the bible teaches against it (ie the dangers of drunkeness). now in proverbs 31 the bible says it's not for kings or princes and lk 1 said it wasn't for John. whether or not it's for you is b/w you and the Lord. i already said that just b/c a person drinks doesn't mean they're not a christian.

but i will caution you that in 1 tim 5, paul had to exhort timothy to drink a lil wine b/c of his stomach. whether or not this is referring to fermented wine or grape juice is not clear. but what is clear is that it was for medicinal purposes rather than him getting his buzz on.

however, if it is fermented wine being referred, then one may wonder why paul would have to encourage timothy to do so if there wasn't anything wrong with it. could it be possible that timothy refused to give the appearance of evil concerning fermented wine, even at the expense of his stomach? that sounds like love in action. the man of God went without just so he wouldn't cause his brother to stumble.

along the same lines, i also offered a simple testimony. i gotta stand up for holiness (being set apart unto the Lord). just like john couldn't have the testimony of drinking wine or strong drink, whenever i witness to someone, i refuse to have the smell of alcohol on my breath. the only thing i want catz to smell is the sweet fragrance of Christ and the gospel. i refuse to have my testimony in jeopardy and i refuse to cause a brother to stumble. i won't even have anyone saying they saw me at the store purchasing alcohol. i gotta come from amoung them and be separate. separate in speech AND behavior.

lastly, let it be known that in standing up for holiness, i never judge christians or anyone. i just live a set apart life and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. i don't need alcohol. not to relax. not to chill. not for anything. the devil is a liar. i have the Holy Spirit which is more than enough to last me until Jesus returns.:smile:

Cowboy
06-22-2007, 10:07 PM
Hey, everyone's got their own convictions and personal views, and I respect that of ya. Do what God is telling you to do.

Your arguments though, above, are not strong. You're having to stretch the Word more than anyone who's claiming that it's not alcohol that's wrong, but being drunk. Plus, you're stretching it to try and show that it was "grape juice" and not alcoholic.

"as far as gen 14:18, you're right again that does deal with fermented wine as well. however the reason why Melchizedek probably brought Abraham fermented wine was b/c in those days there wasn't any refrigeration or any other means to keep grape juice from fermenting. so it would have probably been brought out of circumstance rather than promotion/endorsement."

Seriously? Come on. That's quite a stretch. Wouldn't it have mentioned that if we were to not think of it as "wine"?

"now don't misunderstand, when i said that wine today is different from biblical times, i was referring to potency. today much of our wine is stronger than biblical times just as today our strong drink is much stronger than then. a good example is weed. in the 70s many people smoked pot. but the pot today is far more potent b/c of all the extra things they add to it. but on the contrary, much of the wine drunk in biblical days was diluted to prevent intoxication."

How do you know the potency of wine back then? Weed is only a partially good example. My dad did drugs in the 70's, and if you listen to Dennis Leary or Robin Williams from the 80's, they'll tell you about the junk they used to put in weed. It was just as laced then as it is now. What happens now is people adding different chemicals. But, I'd really like to see your basis for believing that wine is more potent now than then. Plus, one of your points was that the wine we were referring to was "grape juice" and not alcoholic at all.

"but i will caution you that in 1 tim 5, paul had to exhort timothy to drink a lil wine b/c of his stomach. whether or not this is referring to fermented wine or grape juice is not clear. but what is clear is that it was for medicinal purposes rather than him getting his buzz on.

however, if it is fermented wine being referred, then one may wonder why paul would have to encourage timothy to do so if there wasn't anything wrong with it. could it be possible that timothy refused to give the appearance of evil concerning fermented wine, even at the expense of his stomach? that sounds like love in action. the man of God went without just so he wouldn't cause his brother to stumble."

Look into how wine affects your health and if grape juice is as good. Check into that for yourself and see what you find. And your second part doesn't make sense. Cause if there was something wrong with it, get this, Paul would not have encouraged it. Paul was encouraging Timothy because Timothy was like his son. Fatherly advice. There's no basis for believing that Timothy refused wine or that he abstained so a brother wouldn't stumble. That's bad hermeneutics my friend.


Again, on your personal convictions, I respect that. But leave it at that and don't stretch scripture to try and support your claims. Let it be.

Cyple
06-22-2007, 10:41 PM
Wouldn't that fall into the category of gettin tipsy..I mean to drink for the taste of it is one thing..To drink fermented drinks for the purpose of relaxation, does that open another can o worms..I'm just asking..No beef

I'm mainly talking about getting relaxed after a hard days work. I think though if you are drinking for the taste then you should be careful that you don't drink yourself into a stupor.

topherstyles
06-22-2007, 10:41 PM
I can understand the knee jerk reactions. Satan has intentionally perverted nearly every positive human pleasure. <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Sex&v=55">Sex</a> is good. Satan makes the porn industry. Laughter is good, satan makes comedy central (in which the majority of the <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=jokes&v=55">jokes</a> are perverse). <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Food&v=55">Food</a> is good, satan makes mc Donald's. Alcohol is good, satan makes budweiser and all the other companies. He takes everything, pushes the envelope and encourages excess. Since we all see the negative effect of the excess, we assume that it must be absolutely negative with no possibility of purity.

Just dropping some more pennies.

ROTFL!!!!! SATAN MADE MC DONALDS!!!!!!


So am I wrong if I say------pass the coverseir!!!!!! EVERBODY SING IT NOW!!!!!!

LOL! J/k! :)

Cyple
06-22-2007, 10:43 PM
There's nothin like a cold beer after a hard days work. Especially when you get done mowing the yard and your wife hands you a cold one. You pop that top and see that smoke(whatever that is) come out :biggrin: boy ain't nothin like that first swig. It goes down so smooth.

Sho ya right!

BondServant
06-23-2007, 01:18 AM
yeah, you're right. both numbers 15:5-10 and exodus 29:40 deal with fermented wine. however neither one of those gave instructions to drink them. they were to be used as a drink offering in sacrifice. however, that does bring up the question as to why the Lord would call for such? i'll have to dig a lil deeper into that.

But if it's to be abstained from, then God is giving mixed signals. If this gives the "appearance of evil", how can Yahweh make it a law to give an offering? That doesn't make any sense. You'll have to abandon your view, because there is simply no getting around it. It was an acceptable offering to the Lord.


as far as gen 14:18, you're right again that does deal with fermented wine as well. however the reason why Melchizedek probably brought Abraham fermented wine was b/c in those days there wasn't any refrigeration or any other means to keep grape juice from fermenting. so it would have probably been brought out of circumstance rather than promotion/endorsement.

So then this is a probability? You admit that you don't have any evidence for your refrigeration theory?



concerning deut 14:26, you're right a third time, this was also fermented wine. however, the context has to do with the yearly tithe. isreal would meet at the tabernacle or temple and present their tithes to the Lord (if you don't believe in tithing, you can't use this scripture to support drinking alcohol). the isrealites were instructed to sell their tithes if they lived too far to carry their tithes to the tabernacle or temple. once they got to the feast, they would have used the money to, in effect, purchase the things they sold and then consume them in the presence of the Lord.

How come I can't use this scripture? Nor do we offer up burnt offerings or drink offerings anymore, so how come I can't use this scripture? The sacrifices and offerings have been done away with(at least in a non-dispensational view), there's no reference in the scriptures that consuming alcohol has been done away with. But to my point, how can you argue that it's wrong to consume alcohol if here God is encouraging its use? Regardless if you feel it's connected to tithes, God still encouraged it. If it's wrong, it should be wrong in ALL circumstances.


i lack a commentary on deut so i really can't say anything else concerning that verse. it does seem to suggest the use of wine or strong drink once a year and only in the presence of the Lord as an act of worship. but once again, to use such to support drinking socially in moderation is to take that passage out of context.

It doesn't "seem to suggest", it simply and clearly and emphatically suggests. Your argument here is severly flawed. You say that it suggests that it's an act of worship, yet at the same time argue against it's use in moderation. So then if it can be used as an act of worship, why do you assume that it's wrong when done in moderation, especially when it can be done as an act of worship. You have to abandon your view fam, it's been proven from scripture.



now don't misunderstand, when i said that wine today is different from biblical times, i was referring to potency. today much of our wine is stronger than biblical times just as today our strong drink is much stronger than then. a good example is weed. in the 70s many people smoked pot. but the pot today is far more potent b/c of all the extra things they add to it. but on the contrary, much of the wine drunk in biblical days was diluted to prevent intoxication.

This is what Neb and I have been asking you for. We heard you say this the first time, yet you haven't proved it. Please prove to us that this is the case. There are plenty of cases where people were intoxicated in scripture, so how do you come to the conclusion that their alcohol wasn't has potent when the same results occured?



also, i never said that the bible says not to drink alcohol. i said that the bible teaches against it (ie the dangers of drunkeness). now in proverbs 31 the bible says it's not for kings or princes and lk 1 said it wasn't for John. whether or not it's for you is b/w you and the Lord. i already said that just b/c a person drinks doesn't mean they're not a christian.

Where did you say that? I may have missed that, but I don't recall you arguing against drunkeness. There'd be no point to the back and forth convo if that had been the case. Cause it's clear that the scriptures speak against drukeness. What does Proverbs 31 and luke 1 prove?


but i will caution you that in 1 tim 5, paul had to exhort timothy to drink a lil wine b/c of his stomach. whether or not this is referring to fermented wine or grape juice is not clear. but what is clear is that it was for medicinal purposes rather than him getting his buzz on.

It's fermented wine. What does any of this prove though?



however, if it is fermented wine being referred, then one may wonder why paul would have to encourage timothy to do so if there wasn't anything wrong with it. could it be possible that timothy refused to give the appearance of evil concerning fermented wine, even at the expense of his stomach? that sounds like love in action. the man of God went without just so he wouldn't cause his brother to stumble.

More probabilities. One can read anything into the text if he wants then. It's possible that Timothy just didn't like wine, or any alcoholic beverage, it's possible that Timothy used to be an alcoholic and no longer wanted to associate with it, it's possible that he used to get beaten by his drunken father, or that he never knew alcohol existed, or that wine would help aid his sickness. Lots of things are possible, but it gives no room for me to build a case out of it and present it as an argument for "refusing to give the appearance of evil". That's a big leap, without any evidence.


along the same lines, i also offered a simple testimony. i gotta stand up for holiness (being set apart unto the Lord). just like john couldn't have the testimony of drinking wine or strong drink, whenever i witness to someone, i refuse to have the smell of alcohol on my breath. the only thing i want catz to smell is the sweet fragrance of Christ and the gospel. i refuse to have my testimony in jeopardy and i refuse to cause a brother to stumble. i won't even have anyone saying they saw me at the store purchasing alcohol. i gotta come from amoung them and be separate. separate in speech AND behavior.

How am I not standing for holiness because I drink? By saying that you stand for holiness because you don't drink, you are making ad hominems about those of us who do drink. That we are somehow less holy than you are. It's a fallacious argument. You're not John. Again, how does any of this prove that one should not drink? I'm nor arguing that you should drink, obviously it's sin to you(even though you haven't proven it from scripture).


lastly, let it be known that in standing up for holiness, i never judge christians or anyone. i just live a set apart life and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. i don't need alcohol. not to relax. not to chill. not for anything. the devil is a liar. i have the Holy Spirit which is more than enough to last me until Jesus returns.:smile:

What does the devil is a liar mean? What does any of that have to do with what we're talking about? Are you suggesting that because the devil is a liar and that you don't need these things, that we somehow believe that the devil is truth and need alcohol? We don't need alcohol either, as Neb has already pointed out to you. No one has said that they needed alcohol. We have the Holy Spirit too, and He's more than enough as well, but what does that have to do with anything? Are you implying that because we enjoy a nice Red Stripe(beer) that we don't have the Holy Spirit and that Christ is not enough? Indeed, another ad hominem.

You have no support in scripture for your view, you must abandon it, and instead of conforming to your personal opinion, conform to that of scripture.

Love you.

WhyMe
06-23-2007, 01:22 AM
So when you read of Christ drinking wine(he was called a winebibber), or Jesus turning water into wine for the guests(encouraging them), or Yahweh giving Israel alcohol(wine and strong drink) as a blessing, that this could be seen as evil? Would you have run up to Jesus and told him to put that wine down because it had the appearance of evil?


Jesus making wine in his culture is vastly different then the abuse of alcohol in our American culture. In Europe and other parts of the globe they can handle wine in moderation. However in our american culture, alcohol has connections to a godless lifestyle. I don't drink alcohol for the main reason the bible tells us to avoid the appearance of evil. The destruction and impact alcohol has had on the American family can not go unnoticed. (which of course is a result of man's total depravity )

I understand the verses that wine was a symbol of enjoyment and blessing. However, some conclude that the induced euphoria from the alcohol is what God intended as the blessing. I believe it was the fruit of the vine that was the blessing, not its souring.

On a side note, I do believe wine today is different then the wine back then. The Talmud records the Jewish practice of regularly reducing the effects of unmixed wine by a 3/1 ratio of water to wine. There are also other historical writings that talk about diluting wine with water before consumption, the only one I can think of off the top is Homer's Odyssey which mentions a ratio of 20 to 1(this was the most extreme one that is why I remember it, the others were like 8 to 1, etc.). Also we are able to increase the alcohol content with extra yeast and controlled heating conditions which is something they couldn't do(controlled heating).



Just to make things clear were I stand: drinking alcohol is not sinful in itself if you don't get drunk. However the appearance of alcohol in our American culture is.

BondServant
06-23-2007, 01:29 AM
Jesus making wine in his culture is vastly different then the abuse of alcohol in our American culture. In Europe and other parts of the globe they can handle wine in moderation. However in our american culture, alcohol has connections to a godless lifestyle. I don't drink alcohol for the main reason the bible tells us to avoid the appearance of evil. The destruction and impact alcohol has had on the American family can not go unnoticed. (which is of course is a result of man's total depravity )

Can you prove this from scripture? Paul told the Ephesians to not be drunk with wine. It doesn't matter who's is more potent when the same effects happen. The same greek word was used in Pauls warning and in Christ's wedding account. It was intoxicating wine, because one could get drunk off it. It doesn't matter what it means here in the states or in Europe. We conform to scripture, not what others think.


I understand the verses that wine was a symbol of enjoyment and blessing. However, some conclude that the induced euphoria from the alcohol is what God intended as the blessing. I believe it was the fruit of the vine that was the blessing, not its souring.

Can you prove that from scripture?

WhyMe
06-23-2007, 01:55 AM
Can you prove this from scripture? Paul told the Ephesians to not be drunk with wine. It doesn't matter who's is more potent when the same effects happen. The same greek word was used in Pauls warning and in Christ's wedding account. It was intoxicating wine, because one could get drunk off it. It doesn't matter what it means here in the states or in Europe. We conform to scripture, not what others think.

No :), but does alcohol in America have connections to a godless lifestyle? Wouldn't that lifestyle be appearance of evil?


People bring water bottles in church to drink, why not bring a can of beer to drink in church? Appearance of evil.


Do you honestly think Jesus would be chillin' with you at a game drinking a Beer?






Can you prove that from scripture?

No, can you prove it the other way?

Devin
06-23-2007, 02:04 AM
ummm.....whyme....was wine actually ever consumed in the church?come on now dude.thats a straw right there.come better please.of course no one is gonna bring a alcoholic beverage to church.the purpose of church is for worship/praise and fellowship.not drinking beer or wine.so your argument is flawd.come better buddy.

ministerbj
06-23-2007, 03:03 AM
WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

I came in here expecting to see people talking about the Holy Spirit and once a person gets saved let God clean them up. Only the Righteous shall see God. etc.. some good Holiness stuff... instead i came in here and saw folk talking about drinking beer, and it's ok, how to mix it...etc...:swoon:

what are your intentions when drinking beer or wine?
how much are you consuming?
did you drink before you got saved?
do you consider yourself a new creature now that you have accepted Christ and that the old things in your life are passed away?
have ya'll prayed about drinking beer and should you drink it?

Deliverance is available to you... (singing)...lol....

Thank you Son Of Man.. SMH.. HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLY SPIRIT....

Devin
06-23-2007, 03:08 AM
WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

I came in here expecting to see people talking about the Holy Spirit and once a person gets saved let God clean them up. Only the Righteous shall see God. etc.. some good Holiness stuff... instead i came in here and saw folk talking about drinking beer, and it's ok, how to mix it...etc...:swoon:

what are your intentions when drinking beer or wine?
how much are you consuming?
did you drink before you got saved?
do you consider yourself a new creature now that you have accepted Christ and that the old things in your life are passed away?
have ya'll prayed about drinking beer and should you drink it?

Deliverance is available to you... (singing)...lol....

Thank you Son Of Man.. SMH.. HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLY SPIRIT....

brotha get over yourself.puuhhaaalleeezzee.this issue has been discussed before.maybe u missed it.but cats aint saying that you SHOULD drink.but what we are discussing is that some ppl are under the belief that drinking wine or beer is a sin.and knowhere in scripture does it say so.thats the point.if you choose not to drink i think we can all agree that thats your thing and its ok.but its foolish to say that bondservant or anyone else is sinning when you or whyme cant even pull out a scriputure saying so.all you cats are just talking about is "spirit" which is important because we should be Holy Spirit led and if we feel convicted then we should yield.but if there is no sin in drinking a glass of wine or can of beer and there is no conviction and you have no scripture that would state that its sin then PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION OF YOUR ARGUMENT?do you want us to yield to the Holy Spirit.or do you want us to yield to your Conviction?

ministerbj
06-23-2007, 03:54 AM
brotha get over yourself.puuhhaaalleeezzee.this issue has been discussed before.maybe u missed it.but cats aint saying that you SHOULD drink.but what we are discussing is that some ppl are under the belief that drinking wine or beer is a sin.and knowhere in scripture does it say so.thats the point.if you choose not to drink i think we can all agree that thats your thing and its ok.but its foolish to say that bondservant or anyone else is sinning when you or whyme cant even pull out a scriputure saying so.all you cats are just talking about is "spirit" which is important because we should be Holy Spirit led and if we feel convicted then we should yield.but if there is no sin in drinking a glass of wine or can of beer and there is no conviction and you have no scripture that would state that its sin then PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION OF YOUR ARGUMENT?do you want us to yield to the Holy Spirit.or do you want us to yield to your Conviction?

present your body a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service.......

you can be convicted by the Holy Spirit and still don't answer to the conviction. i didn't say drinking was a sin.. but if you claim to be Christ like and if Greater is He that is within you than he that is within the world.. then tell me why not get the satisfaction and pleasure from the one that's in you when it comes to drinking and smoking...and if you place it before God then it's a god... and we know God is not having that...

Devin
06-23-2007, 04:02 AM
well why not make that same argument for food?or sex?or tv?or gospel rap?or cake?or ice cream?all these things provide pleasure of some sort.all these things provide statisfaction.your argument is so flawd man.i can easily use that same argument when it comes to sexual relations in a marriage.after all sex provides pleasere and satisfaction.are you gonna tell a married man and woman they are wrong for seeking pleasure and satisfaction through sex?
plus no one has implied that God doesnt come First.thats you making a flawd argument.scripture has been cited.if thats not putting God first then i dont know what is.and let us remember that scripture outweights a conviction because sometime our convictions are not biblically supported.i used to hate the death penalty.but scripture supports it.so my conviction means nothing.it was never a conviction.it was ignorance of scripture...how is anyone on here making Wine their God?

Cyple
06-23-2007, 06:10 AM
WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

I came in here expecting to see people talking about the Holy Spirit and once a person gets saved let God clean them up. Only the Righteous shall see God. etc.. some good Holiness stuff... instead i came in here and saw folk talking about drinking beer, and it's ok, how to mix it...etc...:swoon:

what are your intentions when drinking beer or wine?
how much are you consuming?
did you drink before you got saved?
do you consider yourself a new creature now that you have accepted Christ and that the old things in your life are passed away?
have ya'll prayed about drinking beer and should you drink it?

Deliverance is available to you... (singing)...lol....

Thank you Son Of Man.. SMH.. HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLINESS... HOLY SPIRIT....

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Don't add to the scriptures. What do you think that Jesus was drinking at the last supper? The sin is not in the item itself, it is in the person. A gun can be used to help feed your family when it's used correctly. A gun can also be used to kill someone. Should guns be outlawed as for Christians? A couple of drinks a day is actually GOOD for you! How is that damaging your body?

apokalum
06-23-2007, 06:18 AM
Never in my life actually. Don't plan to.

C-dero
06-23-2007, 07:40 AM
Do you?

"I don't drink beer, last time I did woke up with a pink beard, it was weird man I couldn't think clear, wrote something on my forehead but the ink smeared,"-Cruz Cordero

On the real, I don't get drunk.

DJ zilla
06-23-2007, 09:20 AM
I drink root beer

WhyMe
06-23-2007, 10:12 AM
i think we can all agree that thats your thing and its ok.but its foolish to say that bondservant or anyone else is sinning when you or whyme cant even pull out a scriputure saying so.all you cats are just talking about is "spirit"

My argument has been appearance of evil, and that is in the scripture. I'm not "all you cats are just talking about is "spirit"" argument.

WhyMe
06-23-2007, 10:20 AM
ummm.....whyme....was wine actually ever consumed in the church?come on now dude.thats a straw right there.come better please.of course no one is gonna bring a alcoholic beverage to church.the purpose of church is for worship/praise and fellowship.not drinking beer or wine.so your argument is flawd.come better buddy.

If you don't want to answer it that is fine, unless your best argument is, church is for worship/praise. Because in case you haven't notice, people need to hydrate at church. I'm sure Timothy drank wine at his church since he was instructed by Paul to stop drinking water alone because it was making him sick.

Ok, instead of drinking it, why don't just keep a can of beer in your girl's purse during service so you can drink it later at the park?

BondServant
06-23-2007, 10:35 AM
No :), but does alcohol in America have connections to a godless lifestyle? Wouldn't that lifestyle be appearance of evil?


People bring water bottles in church to drink, why not bring a can of beer to drink in church? Appearance of evil.


Do you honestly think Jesus would be chillin' with you at a game drinking a Beer?




No, can you prove it the other way?

Come on fam, really? You're avoiding the issue. You presuppose that the alcohol back then was diluted without scriptural support and impose it on the text. You have to do that to in order to avoid the inevitable. Without warrant you accuse the Son of God of having the "appearance of evil".

Do I think Jesus would be chillin' with me at a game drinking beer? It doesn't matter what I think. Cause I could say yes, Neb could say yes, ctide, devin, cyple and cowboy could all say yes, but you, ministerjb, son of man could all say no, and we're back to square one. It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what scripture teaches, and so far, you guys have resorted to empirical arguments and ad hominems. None of you are dealing with the scripts, even though they stare you in the face.

seal
06-23-2007, 10:37 AM
lastly, let it be known that in standing up for holiness, i never judge christians or anyone. i just live a set apart life and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. i don't need alcohol. not to relax. not to chill. not for anything. the devil is a liar. i have the Holy Spirit which is more than enough to last me until Jesus returns.:smile:

What is this statement all about? Is it necessary for you to feel better about yourself b/c you are set apart and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting? Does the Holy Spirit convict apart from the Word of God? I don't recall people in this thread saying they needed alcohol to relax or chill. They were like it's a way that they do such things but it's not needed. We know the devil is a liar but what does that have to do with the topic? All the people who said they drink have the Holy Spirit as well who is more then enough to last them til the Revelation of Jesus Christ. You are implying so much in this statement it's not even funny. May the Spirit continue to fill you with the Word...


Eccl. 10:19
wine gladdens life

Hail King Jesus,
seal


p.s... I drink but rarely if ever. I drink super soft things like mike's Hard Lemonade and stuff like that... Nothing like that sinner Bondservant...LOL... J/K :tongue:

WhyMe
06-23-2007, 10:46 AM
Come on fam, really? You're avoiding the issue. You presuppose that the alcohol back then was diluted without scriptural support and impose it on the text. You have to do that to in order to avoid the inevitable. Without warrant you accuse the Son of God of having the "appearance of evil".

No, I don't accuse Jesus of that at all. If I had time I could probably trace back the culture effect alcohol has had on our culture and other cultures but I believe it would be in vain.



Do I think Jesus would be chillin' with me at a game drinking beer? It doesn't matter what I think. Cause I could say yes, Neb could say yes, ctide, devin, cyple and cowboy could all say yes, but you, ministerjb, son of man could all say no, and we're back to square one.

Your right, so this is where I bounce out of this thread in Love. I've made my statements and would be going in circles with future post.


It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what scripture teaches, and so far, you guys have resorted to empirical arguments and ad hominems.
What ad hominems have I used against you?



None of you are dealing with the scripts, even though they stare you in the face.

Again, my argument is appearance of evil, not if alcohol is evil in itself.

BondServant
06-23-2007, 10:51 AM
No, I don't accuse Jesus of that at all. If I had time I could probably trace back the culture effect alcohol has had on our culture and other cultures but I believe it would be in vain.

They would be, because it presupposes and avoids the issue. Because people got drunk then, so what difference does it make?



What ad hominems have I used against you?


I said you "guys", including the others, not necessarily you.



Again, my argument is appearance of evil, not if alcohol is evil in itself.

But even that's flawed. Especially after the evidence that has been given.

Devin
06-23-2007, 10:56 AM
hmm...well im still in disagreement over the "apperance of evil" argument Whyme.but if thats your opinion or conviction then its all gravy.im just not seeing how me buying a bottle of wine would make a non believer look at me funny.after all...its the non believer that sold it to me anyway.:tongue:

WhyMe
06-23-2007, 11:01 AM
They would be, because it presupposes and avoids the issue. Because people got drunk then, so what difference does it make?

Getting drunk has been recorded since Noah, so I am not arguing culture's getting drunk. However, physical abuse, broken homes, lost of lives is something that our American culture can blame on the effects of alcohol. I'm sure it has happened through out history of our world, but(of course I would have to write a paper with resources to prove it:)) today in America significantly worse.

Men in America hit their wives because their drunk, Men in the middle east hit their wives because they think that is their right.

Ok, i'm off to sea world!! :smile:

In Love,

WhyMe

Devin
06-23-2007, 11:04 AM
ok.so your point is.......?

BondServant
06-23-2007, 11:09 AM
Getting drunk has been recorded since Noah, so I am not arguing culture's getting drunk. However, physical abuse, broken homes, lost of lives is something that our American culture can blame on the effects of alcohol. I'm sure it has happened through out history of our world, but(of course I would have to write a paper with resources to prove it:)) today in America significantly worse.

Men in America hit their wives because their drunk, Men in the middle east hit their wives because they think that is their right.

Ok, i'm off to sea world!! :smile:

In Love,

WhyMe

empirical argument.

People abuse sex, men in America hit their wives when they're not drunk. People beat their kids when they're not drunk. There are broken homes without the effects of alcohol.

You could post a study, I could post a story. And round and round we go. :spinny:

seal
06-23-2007, 11:09 AM
Getting drunk has been recorded since Noah, so I am not arguing culture's getting drunk. However, physical abuse, broken homes, lost of lives is something that our American culture can blame on the effects of alcohol. I'm sure it has happened through out history of our world, but(of course I would have to write a paper with resources to prove it:)) today in America significantly worse.

Men in America hit their wives because their drunk, Men in the middle east hit their wives because they think that is their right.

Ok, i'm off to sea world!! :smile:

In Love,

WhyMe

Alcohol is only the means, sin (a.k.a. Lawlessness) is the problem. Just like a gun is only the means of murder, sin is the probleam. This argument is unbiblical and illogical.

Hail King Jesus,
seal

Gloria
06-23-2007, 11:25 AM
I drink root beer

YUM! Me too? What brand? I like "Mug.":jiggy:

OrthodoX
06-23-2007, 01:52 PM
hmmm..... still waiting on someone to respond to my last post.

t-roberts
06-23-2007, 02:16 PM
YUM! Me too? What brand? I like "Mug.":jiggy:

I'm an IBC man just because the bottle is made of glass.:biggrin:

son of man
06-23-2007, 02:24 PM
1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.

furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.

now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.

2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.

in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.

3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?

4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.

5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.

6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.

the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.

7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.

8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.

after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.

i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.

KFB
06-23-2007, 02:43 PM
Not often. I do enjoy good apple cider(the real cider, which is alcoholic).

KFB
06-23-2007, 02:45 PM
1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.

furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.

now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.

2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.

in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.

3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?

4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.

5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.

6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.

the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.

7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.

8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.

after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.

i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.


Is it a sin to drink?

seal
06-23-2007, 03:01 PM
1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.

furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.

now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.

2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.

in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.

3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?

4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.

5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.

6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.

the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.

7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.

8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.

after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.

i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.

Yo,

Dude you are starting to get ridiculous now. Saying we are beyond sin is a very serious error and you really need to clarify that from the Holy Scriptures not from your emotions. Scripture and verse please.

Also, I really think that you have had a bad experience with alcohol feel free to disclose the issue so we can help build and show empathy.

Hail King Jesus,
seal

BondServant
06-23-2007, 03:39 PM
1. wine today is stronger than wine in biblical times. the fermentation process was more natural then as opposed to the distilleries that we have today. that's really common knowledge. man has more techniques to increase the alcohol content of wine today than in previous days.

Yet you haven't proved it. This is the third or fourth time you've said it, but without proof. Again, even if it is, what difference does it make. They were getting just as drunk as people are today. You have no evidence that this was the case in these situations. none, nor have you attempted to prove it.



furthermore, i've read behind scholars who suggest that what the bible refers to as "strong drink" is actually beer or ale. in proverbs 20:1, in some translations you will read "strong drink". in other translations you read "beer". if this is true, then this might suggest that the strongest drink they had in biblical times was beer. but regardless, it's common sense that they didn't have E&J, Jack Daniels and Everclear. those today are WAY more potent than ANYTHING the biblical world ever had. i'm surprised people are asking for "proof" to support this. i thought this went without saying.

It doesn't suggest anything. It only suggests that in that particular case it may have been beer. But what does that prove? Nothing. Again, you make assertions without proof. So what if they didn't have E&J, jack, or everclear? What does any of that prove? It only proves that they didn't have E&J, jack or everclear. It doesn't go without saying. You're relying on empirical arguments.


now what all of that means is that discretion is definately in order here. when the bible speaks of alcohol there's a world of difference b/w what they had then and what we have now. did people get drunk then? obviously. but the point is they had to consume more then people do now.

What difference does that make? If it's wrong to drink alcohol, it should be wrong period, not with how diluted it is or how much you drink. Again, you can't, nor have you proven that this is the case.



2. everytime the bible refers to wine, it doesn't automatically refer to alcohol. in the OT, some words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice. others words that were translated "wine" refer specifically to fermented wine. get out your strong's concordances and do the research to see which is which. to my knowledge, every passage that speaks of God blessing israel with wine, refers to unfermented grape juice.

So? Yayin(Hebrew for wine) occurs 140 times and either refers to wine in the sense we're speaking of, or wine figuratively for God's wrath. That's completely false as I've proven that it doesn't mean unfermented grapes every time. Even you said I was right about that.



in the NT, on the other hand. there is only 1 word that's used to describe BOTH unfermented and fermented wine. i already gave the example of lk 5 which illustrates the use of the same word to describe both. therefore, all you saints have to study the context to determine which one the bible is referring to. don't make the mistake of assuming that Jesus turned water into alcohol just b/c the bible translates it "wine". do some research and study the context to determine which was which.

Fam, why would the pharisees call Jesus a winebibber if He didn't drink wine? That makes absolutely no sense. You know good and well that that was real wine. It was a wedding feast, they served wine, and you have no examples in scripture as to where it wasn't real wine referred to. Even your luke passage and your extra-biblical assessment of it would prove that they were going to let it ferment.



3. the bible does seem to suggest that israel was to offer fermented wine as a drink offering before the Lord (num 15). God didn't command them to consume it during these times but he did ordain it to be used in worship. why did God command such? i'm really not sure. perhaps it was used as a symbol of judgment as wine was often referred to? perhaps it was used to foreshadow the wine they would offer Jesus on the cross?

I already addressed this one. Why not go for the clearer meaning instead of presupposing what you want it to mean? Now you're just making stuff up and avoiding the issue.



4. the hebrew suggests that the wine Melchesidek brought Abraham was fermented as well (gen. 14:18). however, the bible doesn't say they consumed it. it could have been used as a drink offering since the bible says that Melchesidek was a priest. the bible also says that it's not for kings to drink alcohol which could lead one to believe that the wine was brought as a drink offering.

He was also the King of Salem. Proverbs 31 doesn't say that. It only shows the author speaking to Lemuel about it. It's clearly about his being sober-minded in his decrees, not about abstaining from alcohol. Melchesidek obviously gave Abram wine, showing that's it's obviously OK for him to have. It's a stretch to say that Abram to didn't drink it. And you ignore that the King of Kings drank alcohol.

BondServant
06-23-2007, 03:40 PM
5. the bible does seem to suggest that israel could purchase and consume alcohol once a year for their yearly tithe (deut. 14:26). the reason why everybody can't use this verse to support drinking is b/c not everybody agrees in tithing. this verse refers specifically to tithing. now why the Lord commanded such I really have no idea. the context seems to suggest celebrating before the Lord. if that's the case it could typify the joy in the Holy Spirit that believers would have after Jesus was crucified? regardless, this is a passage that deserves consideration so i plan of looking into this further.

That's completely false as I've already shown why. It doesn't matter if one tithes or not. They still consumed alcohol. Either it's wrong or not. Again, you resort to empirical arguments and mere speculation.


6. the bible specifically prohibits the drinking of wine and strong drink on two occasions. the first was proverbs 31 where the bible says it's not for kings and princes to drink alcohol. i'm a co-heir with Christ. i'm a prince to the extent that one day i plan of ruling and reigning with Christ whenever he returns so alcohol isn't for me.

It does not prohibit the drinking of alcohol in Proverbs 31, that's read into the text. luke 1 is dealing specifically with John the Baptist. In the OT, the priests could not drink wine or strong drink before they went into the temple. It was also forbidden for the nazarite to drink wine in the time of his vow. But God specifically says that once that vow is over, the nazarite could drink(num. 6:20). Was God encouraging the nazarites to sin and to be less holy? Christ is the Prince of Peace, King of Kings, and He drank. Perhaps your more holy than He? I reign with Christ now, but that's another convo. He also said that He would drink wine anew with His disciples--"I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." Perhaps you'd pass on that because you don't want to give the appearance of evil?


the second reference is in luke 1. God said that john the baptist was never to drink alcohol. Jesus referred to John as the greatest prophet to ever live. obviously the plan and mission for john was so important that it couldn't be compromised by alcohol. similarly, i want to be considered great in the Lord's eyes. i realize that the ministry of reconciliation is so important that alcohol can never jeopardize it. like john, i want to remain sober and shun even the appearance of evil or worldliness in hopes that i too can introduce people to the Christ.

Again, you're not John the Baptist. "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." Would you have said the same about Christ? And you again resort to speculation as to why He wasn't to drink wine. I could make up something as well. You also resort to ad hominems. And you judge your Lord and Saviour in the process just like the pharisees did.



7. Jesus refused to drink mixed wine whenever he was on the cross (mark 15:23). proverbs said that it should be given to those who were perishing but Jesus refused it. Jesus taught that His disciples should deny themselves and carry their crosses daily. as a disciple of Christ, i choose to follow His example on the cross and deny wine and strong drink.

He said, "I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." He says that He won't drink it "AGAIN", implying that He had before. So He gave His reason as to why He wouldn't drink already. He said this at the Supper. Why would they even have wine at the Supper if it was worldly, or if they were to deny themselves, why even have it at the Supper. You don't have to drink, that's fine with me, but your arguments are severely flawed.



8. timothy obstained from drinking wine, even at the expense of his stomach (1 tim 5). the bible is silent as to why timothy felt the way he did. or is it?we know that scripture interprets scripture so students we put together the pieces as best we can. we can claim that it was any number of reasons why timothy obstained from wine but the bible speaks about avoiding even the appearance of evil. what does it look like for a christian to be seen buying or consuming alcohol? the bible speaks about how it's not for kings or princes to drink. the bible speaks about there was no room for alcohol in john's life and the bible speaks of how even Jesus refused to drink mixed wine on the cross. i'll argue for any one of those reasons before i argue for one that's not mentioned in the bible. timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ.

Where do you read that "timothy was willing to sacrifice his own health for the sake of his testimony about Christ"?


after you take into consideration all of the above, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not drinking alcohol is something the Lord wants or allows you to do. the bible says that all things are lawful but not all things edify. so we have to go beyond whether or not, drinking is a sin. does it edify? i'll let each of you answer that question for yourselves.

You have no biblical case, therefore you must abandon your view. What edifying about you playing X-Box, or ironing your shirt? This is purely subjective.


i'm not gonna get into all the pain and heartache associated with alcohol. i won't mention all the great men in the bible who were led astray by alcohol, even though they once had a prosperous relationship with the Lord. i won't mention that fact that every dollar you spend of alcohol indirectly supports alcoholism, alcohol related fatalities and the like. i won't mention how there's young christians on this board who look up to many of you who openly admit that you drink and how that could cause them to violate their conscious and do the same.

because it doesn't prove anything.

aficianado_jc
06-23-2007, 06:00 PM
The Bible says

(1) drunkenness is a sin and work of the flesh(Galatians 5:21)

(2) believers are not to be stumblingblocks to others (Rom 14:13)

(3) believers are to abstain from all appearance of evil(I Thess 5:22)

If believers drink and get drunk, God according to His Word is not cool with it. If believers do stuff, including but not limited to drinking, and are a stumblingblock to others in terms of acceptance of drinking, getting buzzed, etc. God isn't cool with it. If believers do stuff, including but not limited to drinking, that has an appearance of unGodliness, God isn't cool with it.

I believe it is possible to drink, not get drunk, not be a stumbling block, and to abstain from appearing evil and therefore we shouldn't claim sinner if we see somebody . I believe in our 21st century US culture that it is very had to drink and live up to God's word also.

I choose not to drink as what I could benefit from drinking isn't work risking not meeting God's standard. As a believer, we don't always know who is watching. Is that brew worth taking a chance I am not meeting God's standard? I don't think anything is.

A lot of the comments pro-drinking have tried to compare it to other activities. It is better to compare each activity to God's word. Whether or not gluttony is accepted or not has no bearing on drinking.

Examining gluttony, what it really is, its impacts to our body temples is a good topic. Tying stuff like eating cake to gluttony is a big stretch. Eating cake or McDonald's every day for years maybe. Hypothetically, eating cake on birthdays, weddings and as a dessert for dinner once a month isn't unless your doctor has told you so.

If I drank regularly over the years at get-togethers, holidays, makes it more likely(not automatic) that my children are accepting of social drinking in non-Godly environments which being buzzed at a minimum is regular or to my kids being more accepting of the binge drinking college scene. Potential stumblingblock.

If I as a believer give out brews at my house to houseguests, and I don't get buzzed but they do, likely stumblingblock. If I as a believer, are making apple martini's, pouring Hennessy for the grown folk, I may be able to deal but is everybody else really able. These are hypothetical scenarios for potential stumblingblocks.

Again it is possible to meet God's standard to drink regularly, but it is hard. Why take the chance?

Royalty Jackson
06-23-2007, 08:48 PM
I personally stay away from simply because of the appearance of evil. Also I've gotten drunk before and never wanna taste alcohol again!

son of man
06-24-2007, 02:27 AM
Yo,

Dude you are starting to get ridiculous now. Saying we are beyond sin is a very serious error and you really need to clarify that from the Holy Scriptures not from your emotions. Scripture and verse please.

Also, I really think that you have had a bad experience with alcohol feel free to disclose the issue so we can help build and show empathy.

Hail King Jesus,
sealbefore i got saved i used to get my drink on and smoke weed daily. that was my lifestyle. however whenever i got saved, the Lord delivered me from all of that. nobody had to tell me that drinking was wrong or smokin was wrong. i had a witness in my spirit that it was wrong. when i accepted Jesus, old things passed away and ALL things were made new.

you can consider me a modern day John the baptist b/c from the time i was reborn i knew that alcohol wasn't God's plan for my life. God called me to holiness. wasn't nothing sinful about wearing robes and nice gear but John wore camel's hair and a leather belt. wasn't nothing wrong with eating food but all John ate was locusts and wild honey.

catz is asking if i think i'm more holy than Christ b/c i don't drink wine...lol. i'll answer that by asking if John was holier than Christ b/c he didn't drink wine. (and no my answer doesn't mean that Christ drank alcohol). in mk 14:25 and lk 22:18, all Jesus says is that he won't drink from the "fruit of the vine" until he drinks it new in His kingdom. that phrase comes from a combination of different greek words that simply mean "fruit" or "generation" and "vine". there's absolutely no inference that those words refer to alcohol. Jesus is simply saying he won't drink any fruit juice until he comes back.

i personally don't believe Jesus drunk alcohol. the pharisees accused him of being a winebibber but that doesn't mean he drank alcohol. that just means they accused Him of being a drunk. they also accused him of casting out devils by the power of beelzebub. but that doesn't mean Jesus had anything to do with witchcraft. besides, even some of the onlookers on the day of pentecost mocked and accused the apostles of being drunk. if anybody disagrees, no problem. i'm simply reasoning from the scriptures.

i been mainly speaking about myself and my own personal convictions (even though i would have thought i was in the majority vs. the minority). i been saying since the beginning that i don't judge people for drinking wine. but appearantly that's not good enough. catz want me to pat em on the back and tell em it's ok for them to drink. sorry, but that's not gonna happen. why?

well, first of all, i don't know who's reading this thread? younger, impressionable belivers maybe? who knows? so i'm careful how i coin my responses. some of ya'll may get offended by some of the things i imply (can't help that). when everything is done and said, i could be held accountable for what i said or didn't say in a thread like this. so while i won't say that a christian isn't really saved b/c they drink, i won't endorse such or put God's stamp of approval on it either.

i been saying all throughout this thread that what you choose to do with your temple is b/w you and the Lord. i care whether or not you drink but i don't CARE whether or not you drink (some of ya'll gonna catch that tomorrow):biggrin: this isn't a debate to me. God didn't call me to convince people of anything. that's the Holy Spirit's job.

my purpose was simply to challenge some of you biblically and spiritually. biblically, i'm not so much concerned what you believe as why you believe it. perhaps some of you weren't informed about how in the NT the greek word for "wine" can refer to either alcohol or grape juice. maybe some of you didn't realize that not every hebrew word translated "wine" in the OT actually referred to alcohol. perhaps you weren't aware there's 1 word for grape juice and a totally different word for alcohol even though our english bibles say "wine" in both instances.

now after you know the difference and apply those study skills to formulate interpretations, i have no problem what you come up with. i might challenge your beliefs and/or interpretations but at the end of the day, i respect your mind. i just refuse to sit by and let people offer and accept interpretations based on ignorance (there he goes with that word again...lol). it doesn't matter to me what you personally believe Jesus turned water into as long as you understand that the word for "wine" could refer to grape juice or alcohol.

the only reason i gave my opinion was b/c Gloria asked. we can argue the point all day but when everything is done and said, all we really have is speculation. *makes note to ask Jesus whenever i see Him in Glory* speaking of which, on many of these passages all i can offer is speculation. i admit that. if you have a more solid biblical interpretation, enlighten me please. i really wanna know why God ordained fermented wine to be used as drink offerings? i wanna know why God told israel they could use their tithe money to purchase wine and strong drink? i'm here to teach but i'm also here to learn. oftentime's i speculate b/c i really don't know. there's nothing wrong with speculation as long as everyone understands that's all it is. but hey, we have to start somewhere dont we?

some of ya'll catz keep asking for proof concerning why wine today is stronger than biblical times. but then ya'll argue that it doesn't matter one way or another b/c that doesn't prove anything. for the record, why belittle the point for "proof" if after i dig up every reference i can find, you just come back and say that my "proof" doesn't really prove anything...lol. if there's something specific you want me to provide, just let me know and i'll see what I got.

but my whole point was that if wine and strong drink is stronger today than it was in biblical times, then just b/c it may have been alright then, doesn't mean it's automatically alright now. but that's just an argument, food for thought, whatever. the fact of the matter is whether or not it's a sin (in and of itself) isn't the issue. the question that needs to be answered is whether or not it's edifying. paul taught that all things were lawful, but not all things were profitable (1 corin 6:12, 10:23).

paul taught there's a number of things the bible doesn't specifically say are sinful in and of themselves. nevertheless, they can be sinful if not practiced under the law of love. he used drinking as an illustration (romans14:16-21). i love unbelievers enough not to drink alcohol. i love my brothers and sisters in Christ enough not to drink alcohol. catz asked whether or not playing the xbox edifies? ofcourse not, video games are of the devil. j/k the point paul was making wasn't that you shouldn't do anything that doesn't produce a godly result. he was teaching that you should avoid anything that COULD produce an ungodly one.

it doesn't matter whether or not you could drink alcohol and not go to hell. could your drinking alcohol cause your brother to stumble? could your drinking alcohol set a bad example for someone else? could your drinking alcohol hinder your witness? let's not get bogged down in minor details and arguments over the law. let's look at the bigger picture here.

we can even take it a step further spiritually...

what if the feeling of joy and gladness induced by alcohol was actually counterfeit? what if the devil created drunkeness and drugs as an alternative to the Holy Spirit? what if God had something for believers a million times better than what alcohol could ever offer? what if God encouraged people to drink wine b/c it symbolized the coming joy believers would have in the Holy Ghost? what if everytime you partook of the symbol, you were missing or neglecting what the symbol actually represented? could that have been what paul was trying to get across in eph. 5:15-18 when he exhorted believers to be filled with the SPirit instead of being drunk with wine?

in that same chapter he encouraged believers not to even have a hint of impurity. he said they were once darkness but now light so find out what was pleasing to the Lord. he said they shouldn't participate in darkness but expose it. he wanted them to live wise and not unwise b/c the days are evil. he wanted them to make the most out of every opportunity.

that's all i want for you guys and gals. i'm not trying to argue or debate. personally i thought i was threw with this thread 2 or 3 essays back...lol. but folks kept asking questions like they didn't understand what i was saying or where i was coming from. hopefully it's all clear now. now how bout a round of virgin daquiris on me?:tongue:

BlackCalvinist
06-24-2007, 09:28 AM
I skipped pages 4-6 of this thread and son of man still has yet to PROVE that the wine of bible times spoken of in the scriptures is non-alcoholic. Saying it and re-saying it doesn't prove it.

And the 'every appearance of evil' argument should also keep some of you from going back to the table for seconds, since gluttony is also a sin and some of you need to lose weight. :) The fatter you appear, the more sinful you appear.

WhyMe
06-24-2007, 09:55 AM
[/I]
And the 'every appearance of evil' argument should also keep some of you from going back to the table for seconds, since gluttony is also a sin and some of you need to lose weight. :) The fatter you appear, the more sinful you appear.

It seems you are half way making a joke and half way serious.:)

I will address the half way serious, since this point was brought up by somebody else in this thread.

This is not directed towards BC, but to everybody who uses the gluttony argument to make a point because I've been hearing it frequently used lately to justify things and I just wanted to finally respond briefly on that.

It should be obvious this argument is not biblical and sad, justifying anything that could be right or wrong,(drinking in this case) by comparing it to something that many people constantly do and is clearly a sin in the bible(gluttony) does not make it right.

I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.):)

yellow_glass27
06-24-2007, 09:55 AM
the only alcohol I like are wines and the fruit flavored beverages.

BondServant
06-24-2007, 12:07 PM
before i got saved i used to get my drink on and smoke weed daily. that was my lifestyle. however whenever i got saved, the Lord delivered me from all of that. nobody had to tell me that drinking was wrong or smokin was wrong. i had a witness in my spirit that it was wrong. when i accepted Jesus, old things passed away and ALL things were made new.

you can consider me a modern day John the baptist b/c from the time i was reborn i knew that alcohol wasn't God's plan for my life. God called me to holiness. wasn't nothing sinful about wearing robes and nice gear but John wore camel's hair and a leather belt. wasn't nothing wrong with eating food but all John ate was locusts and wild honey.

catz is asking if i think i'm more holy than Christ b/c i don't drink wine...lol. i'll answer that by asking if John was holier than Christ b/c he didn't drink wine. (and no my answer doesn't mean that Christ drank alcohol). in mk 14:25 and lk 22:18, all Jesus says is that he won't drink from the "fruit of the vine" until he drinks it new in His kingdom. that phrase comes from a combination of different greek words that simply mean "fruit" or "generation" and "vine". there's absolutely no inference that those words refer to alcohol. Jesus is simply saying he won't drink any fruit juice until he comes back.

i personally don't believe Jesus drunk alcohol. the pharisees accused him of being a winebibber but that doesn't mean he drank alcohol. that just means they accused Him of being a drunk. they also accused him of casting out devils by the power of beelzebub. but that doesn't mean Jesus had anything to do with witchcraft. besides, even some of the onlookers on the day of pentecost mocked and accused the apostles of being drunk. if anybody disagrees, no problem. i'm simply reasoning from the scriptures.

i been mainly speaking about myself and my own personal convictions (even though i would have thought i was in the majority vs. the minority). i been saying since the beginning that i don't judge people for drinking wine. but appearantly that's not good enough. catz want me to pat em on the back and tell em it's ok for them to drink. sorry, but that's not gonna happen. why?

well, first of all, i don't know who's reading this thread? younger, impressionable belivers maybe? who knows? so i'm careful how i coin my responses. some of ya'll may get offended by some of the things i imply (can't help that). when everything is done and said, i could be held accountable for what i said or didn't say in a thread like this. so while i won't say that a christian isn't really saved b/c they drink, i won't endorse such or put God's stamp of approval on it either.

i been saying all throughout this thread that what you choose to do with your temple is b/w you and the Lord. i care whether or not you drink but i don't CARE whether or not you drink (some of ya'll gonna catch that tomorrow):biggrin: this isn't a debate to me. God didn't call me to convince people of anything. that's the Holy Spirit's job.

my purpose was simply to challenge some of you biblically and spiritually. biblically, i'm not so much concerned what you believe as why you believe it. perhaps some of you weren't informed about how in the NT the greek word for "wine" can refer to either alcohol or grape juice. maybe some of you didn't realize that not every hebrew word translated "wine" in the OT actually referred to alcohol. perhaps you weren't aware there's 1 word for grape juice and a totally different word for alcohol even though our english bibles say "wine" in both instances.

now after you know the difference and apply those study skills to formulate interpretations, i have no problem what you come up with. i might challenge your beliefs and/or interpretations but at the end of the day, i respect your mind. i just refuse to sit by and let people offer and accept interpretations based on ignorance (there he goes with that word again...lol). it doesn't matter to me what you personally believe Jesus turned water into as long as you understand that the word for "wine" could refer to grape juice or alcohol.

the only reason i gave my opinion was b/c Gloria asked. we can argue the point all day but when everything is done and said, all we really have is speculation. *makes note to ask Jesus whenever i see Him in Glory* speaking of which, on many of these passages all i can offer is speculation. i admit that. if you have a more solid biblical interpretation, enlighten me please. i really wanna know why God ordained fermented wine to be used as drink offerings? i wanna know why God told israel they could use their tithe money to purchase wine and strong drink? i'm here to teach but i'm also here to learn. oftentime's i speculate b/c i really don't know. there's nothing wrong with speculation as long as everyone understands that's all it is. but hey, we have to start somewhere dont we?

some of ya'll catz keep asking for proof concerning why wine today is stronger than biblical times. but then ya'll argue that it doesn't matter one way or another b/c that doesn't prove anything. for the record, why belittle the point for "proof" if after i dig up every reference i can find, you just come back and say that my "proof" doesn't really prove anything...lol. if there's something specific you want me to provide, just let me know and i'll see what I got.

but my whole point was that if wine and strong drink is stronger today than it was in biblical times, then just b/c it may have been alright then, doesn't mean it's automatically alright now. but that's just an argument, food for thought, whatever. the fact of the matter is whether or not it's a sin (in and of itself) isn't the issue. the question that needs to be answered is whether or not it's edifying. paul taught that all things were lawful, but not all things were profitable (1 corin 6:12, 10:23).

paul taught there's a number of things the bible doesn't specifically say are sinful in and of themselves. nevertheless, they can be sinful if not practiced under the law of love. he used drinking as an illustration (romans14:16-21). i love unbelievers enough not to drink alcohol. i love my brothers and sisters in Christ enough not to drink alcohol. catz asked whether or not playing the xbox edifies? ofcourse not, video games are of the devil. j/k the point paul was making wasn't that you shouldn't do anything that doesn't produce a godly result. he was teaching that you should avoid anything that COULD produce an ungodly one.

it doesn't matter whether or not you could drink alcohol and not go to hell. could your drinking alcohol cause your brother to stumble? could your drinking alcohol set a bad example for someone else? could your drinking alcohol hinder your witness? let's not get bogged down in minor details and arguments over the law. let's look at the bigger picture here.

we can even take it a step further spiritually...

what if the feeling of joy and gladness induced by alcohol was actually counterfeit? what if the devil created drunkeness and drugs as an alternative to the Holy Spirit? what if God had something for believers a million times better than what alcohol could ever offer? what if God encouraged people to drink wine b/c it symbolized the coming joy believers would have in the Holy Ghost? what if everytime you partook of the symbol, you were missing or neglecting what the symbol actually represented? could that have been what paul was trying to get across in eph. 5:15-18 when he exhorted believers to be filled with the SPirit instead of being drunk with wine?

in that same chapter he encouraged believers not to even have a hint of impurity. he said they were once darkness but now light so find out what was pleasing to the Lord. he said they shouldn't participate in darkness but expose it. he wanted them to live wise and not unwise b/c the days are evil. he wanted them to make the most out of every opportunity.

that's all i want for you guys and gals. i'm not trying to argue or debate. personally i thought i was threw with this thread 2 or 3 essays back...lol. but folks kept asking questions like they didn't understand what i was saying or where i was coming from. hopefully it's all clear now. now how bout a round of virgin daquiris on me?:tongue:

:nah:

Son of man,

There's a lot to respond here, but there's nothing to respond to.(you'll get it later).

Honestly though, I was going to respond point by point, but it's a waste of time. I've made my arguments from scripture, and you can't refute them. And please, stop talking past me(some of y'all cats), talk to me.

Virgin Daiquiris? Naw, that has the appearance of evil. Cuz only you know that it's a virgin daiquiri. :no:

BondServant
06-24-2007, 12:11 PM
It seems you are half way making a joke and half way serious.:)

I will address the half way serious, since this point was brought up by somebody else in this thread.

This is not directed towards BC, but to everybody who uses the gluttony argument to make a point because I've been hearing it frequently used lately to justify things and I just wanted to finally respond briefly on that.

It should be obvious this argument is not biblical and sad, justifying anything that could be right or wrong,(drinking in this case) by comparing it to something that many people constantly do and is clearly a sin in the bible(gluttony) does not make it right.

I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.):)

Once you become fully reformed you'll understand. :spinny:

One of us, one of us, one of us, one of us, one of us. That's right, drink the kool-aid.

JusThoughtZ
06-24-2007, 12:28 PM
I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.):)


I'm impressed by your honesty.

+10 cool points.

Oh and I don't consume(alcohol)for personal reasons.

I don't even take cough syrup. lol.

JusThoughtZ
06-24-2007, 12:33 PM
Toward the end of proverbs (I can't remember off the top) Solomon (by wisdom from God) states to reserve strong drink for the elderly/dying. Medicinal use.

Also, when the bible speaks of wine, it is fermented. Check your sources. Noah drank and was drunk. Other people in the NT drank and were merry (buzzed). Proverbs said nothing against drinking but made many quotes concerning being a drunkard. Also, there is no scientific evidence to show that unfermented grape juice promotes digestive health. Wine is what helps. Therefore, when Paul states to have a little wine with a meal to help digestion, he was giving directions: it's okay...in moderation.



BUT, nowadays, drinking is synonomous with sin so it's better to avoid it altogether IMO. I'm just saying it's not a sin.

Pc.

Thats pretty much how I thought it to be. Well said Daniel Son.
*sips sake*

KPfaREAL
06-24-2007, 02:00 PM
...now how bout a round of virgin daquiris on me?


Virgin Daiquiris? Naw, that has the appearance of evil. Cuz only you know that it's a virgin daiquiri. :no:

KO :wideeyed:

JusThoughtZ
06-24-2007, 02:05 PM
KO :wideeyed:

lol@the instigation

Kerry1914
06-24-2007, 03:21 PM
It seems you are half way making a joke and half way serious.:)

Actually, I'm fully serious. :) There are plenty of people who rail on (and I've seen it in the SBC) about drinking drinking drinking, yet they're overweight and can't seem to resist that third piece of cake.



It should be obvious this argument is not biblical and sad, justifying anything that could be right or wrong,(drinking in this case) by comparing it to something that many people constantly do and is clearly a sin in the bible(gluttony) does not make it right.

The thing is, drinking alcohol in the bible is not called a sin. Period. Getting drunk IS called a sin. Similarly, eating food is not called sin, but gluttony IS.

This is seen in Psalm 104:

14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for man to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:

15 wine that gladdens the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine,
and bread that sustains his heart. ( Psalm 104:14-15)

It is God who brings forth all of these things for specific purposes - including wine to 'gladden' (make happy) the heart of man. It's there for that reason, just as sex is there for married couples to rejoice in each other.

The problem always happens when we take things out of their context or do them in excess as NOT allowed by scripture. So we have warnings against gluttony, drunkenness and fornication/adultery. All three of these things take what God has created for good (see passages above) for man's benefit and uses them for evil.

Speaking from a historical perspective, the 'grape juice' argument only came about 150 years ago. Prior to that - 1700 years - everybody - INCLUDING the Anabaptists - used real wine both at the communion table AND in their celebrations. I used to believe the whole 'no alcohol' argument too till I actually went back in history and looked at what was believed and what was used.


I will be honest, I've learned something new these last couple of days. I honestly didn't realize that there were "True Christians" who didn't associate drinking with appearance of evil. Maybe it's the influence of being in IFB churches most of my life. Regardless I love and respect the people who participated in this thread and would not break fellowship over it(If you were getting drunk that would be a different story.):)

Yep. There are a bunch of them. The 'baptistic' tradition (which includes charismatics, baptists and anyone who holds to 'believers baptism') is where this originated from. It's actually an outgrowth of the memorialist view of the Lord's supper. I dug into this back in 2000 prior to becoming a Calvinist and again in 05 in discussions with my pastor.

Give me a few days, I'll post a bibliography for you to check up on the subject.

And I don't know if anyone's addressed it yet, but the greek word for 'appearance' at 1 Thess. 5:22 can also be translated as "kind", which throws a whole different light on this discussion.

All that said, I won't drink around a believer who's had a past problem with alcohol. I have no problem drinking around an unbeliever because according to scripture, my responsibility to not have my brother stumble supercedes any responsibility to a non-Christian (Romans 13-14).

Also realize this: taking alcohol in moderation will look slightly different for each person. Speaking for me, I buy a bottle of wine every 2 months or so and take 2-3 weeks to finish it off sometimes (sometimes only 2 weeks, since the average bottle only holds 2-4 glasses of wine). If I buy a 6-pack of coolers, you come to my house 2 months later, I might have 3-4 left.

I generally stay away from 'strong drink' (stuff designed to get you drunk quickly). I've never been drunk (in fact, in college, I didn't drink at all - I was always the bruh that watched out for the rest of my frat and friends when they got drunk!).

What's funny here, is that some of the same people who advocated liberty in worshipping God as they pleased over in the worship thread (when scripture is a LOT more specific about how God is to be worshipped) are the same ones putting time and energy into saying that all alcohol should be abstained from (which the scriptures DO NOT say). Learn the major issues, folks. Focus on them. :spinny:

Gloria
06-24-2007, 05:18 PM
What's funny here, is that some of the same people who advocated liberty in worshipping God as they pleased over in the worship thread (when scripture is a LOT more specific about how God is to be worshipped) are the same ones putting time and energy into saying that all alcohol should be abstained from (which the scriptures DO NOT say). Learn the major issues, folks. Focus on them. :spinny:

I noticed this too...hmmmmm :daydreaming:

WhyMe
06-24-2007, 05:52 PM
The thing is, drinking alcohol in the bible is not called a sin. Period. Getting drunk IS called a sin. Similarly, eating food is not called sin, but gluttony IS.


I know there has been a lot going on in this thread, you mentioned that you haven't read every post, so I just wanted to clarify my position:

~I never said alcohol is a sin. I know what the Bible teaches on wine and that it is not a sin. My argument has been the Christian appearance.

I pray that Christians are not using alcohol to have something in common with an unbeliever when they go out with them or justifying drinking alcohol so they can fit in with the unbelieving crowd. I didn't get that from any of the posters in this thread, but I am concerned for the young or weaker Christian.


~Also, I don't belong to SBC and I have never been involved with SBC. :)


Kerry what is special about 1914? Is that when your fraternity started?

Kerry1914
06-24-2007, 06:57 PM
I know there has been a lot going on in this thread, you mentioned that you haven't read every post, so I just wanted to clarify my position:

~I never said alcohol is a sin. I know what the Bible teaches on wine and that it is not a sin. My argument has been the Christian appearance.

Understandable brethren.

Let me hit you with this - if it's based on appearance, would it be okay at a gathering of believers who all held the same understanding of alcohol (not sinful, but only drunkenness is sinful, Psalm 104, etc...etc...) ?


I pray that Christians are not using alcohol to have something in common with an unbeliever when they go out with them or justifying drinking alcohol so they can fit in with the unbelieving crowd.


That's actually a good concern and in fact, I'd probably say that to use alcohol in this fashion will probably fall close to the line of sin - just like using other things to 'fit in' could equally fall near to the line of sin if used to 'fit in' with an unbelieving crowd (why would you want to fit in with an unbelieving crowd anyway ?).




Kerry what is special about 1914?

It's my other yahoo ID :cute:

ZestD
06-24-2007, 08:15 PM
Actually, I'm fully serious. :) There are plenty of people who rail on (and I've seen it in the SBC) about drinking drinking drinking, yet they're overweight and can't seem to resist that third piece of cake.



The thing is, drinking alcohol in the bible is not called a sin. Period. Getting drunk IS called a sin. Similarly, eating food is not called sin, but gluttony IS.

What's funny here, is that some of the same people who advocated liberty in worshipping God as they pleased over in the worship thread (when scripture is a LOT more specific about how God is to be worshipped) are the same ones putting time and energy into saying that all alcohol should be abstained from (which the scriptures DO NOT say). Learn the major issues, folks. Focus on them. :spinny:

All of this is strong and I fully agree. Provocative.

See also my "Beers and Ales" thread from a while back.

Brownie
06-24-2007, 09:59 PM
Hello All,

I am new to this forum but I wanted to comment on this subject.

I'm coming in late in the convo---- and I haven't read all 8 pages so forgive me if my point has been made already.


I agree that in this country anything alcoholic has the appearance of evil. We are so used to people getting to get drunk and not because certain wines actually brings out the flavor in certain foods. I know quite a few people that are really into wines--- they are not drunks in any way shape or form. They are actually very well to do classy people that I have never seen drunk. They can tell you all the different grapes and why wines are different. They have a glass of wine with their meal.

In other countries wine is served with almost every mean--- and probably a different wine with each course during that meal. I think that alcohol consumption has been perverted in this country. I think we are so used to people drinking to get drunk and doing it all the time. Now, I would never want to cause another brother to stumble so I wouldn't drink it in public. But I think that it really is cultural.

I have more to say, but I think that is enough for my opening post:biggrin:

Brownie
06-24-2007, 10:24 PM
Ok--- I have read most of this thread and I really hope that the point of this discussion is to edify one another.

If you can't do it in faith then you shouldn't do it.

If it is sin for YOU then don't do it

And, I also love the fact that one poster (don't remember who) said that you need to pray first. But, we should be praying in all we do--- even before we eat or drink anything.

Brownie
06-24-2007, 10:25 PM
Oh--- one more thing. I personally don't drink but I would never say that it is always a sin nor is it always the appearance of evil.

Cyple
06-25-2007, 04:51 AM
I have a question. If we prohibit drinking as Christians, is this a good witness to non-believers? Imagine you're witnessing to someone who drinks responsibly.

son of man
06-25-2007, 08:51 AM
:nah:

Son of man,

There's a lot to respond here, but there's nothing to respond to.(you'll get it later).

Honestly though, I was going to respond point by point, but it's a waste of time. I've made my arguments from scripture, and you can't refute them. And please, stop talking past me(some of y'all cats), talk to me.

Virgin Daiquiris? Naw, that has the appearance of evil. Cuz only you know that it's a virgin daiquiri. :no:BondServant, several years ago there was a guy i had been discipling. me and a friend pulled him aside and kinda took him under our wings so to speak. i haven't had much to do with alcohol since i got saved. but on one occasion i had been drinking. as i recall, i don't think i was drunk but i was definately buzzin. well i was at the store and i saw that young christian i had been mentoring. now understand, baton rouge isn't this huge city but it's not exactly a small town either. you don't expect to run into people you know, much less those you've been witnessing and ministering to. but that day i did.

he didn't see me but nevertheless i was SO convicted. The Lord taught me something that day. you don't really know who's around or who's watching your walk. from that day forward i started looking at things differently. i don't know every clerk at every store i might choose to buy alcohol from but they may know me or know someone who knows me. nowadays there's alot of people lookin for an excuse to disregard christianity. the enemy roams around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. he's more than happy to not only murder someone physically but also kill their reputation, witness and character. we see these things happen daily. that's ample reason for me to stand on the side of caution.

here's another experience more recently...

i thank God my for relationship with Him. But i haven't always been as close to the Lord as i am now. i haven't always been as consecrated as i try to be presently. i can remember a time when i wasn't really walking with the Lord as I should. well anyway, out of the blue, this guy called me to come and preach- not next week or in a couple of days. he needed me in a couple of hours. i didn't have time to repent and fully seek the Lord in restoration like i would have wanted. that day the Lord taught me something else. i have to be ready at a moments notice to minister. there's no time to get ready. i gotta stay ready. i gotta stay sober minded and ready to give a reason for the hope that i have. and no, i'm not implying anything about you or anybody else. i speaking about me.

the Lord is faithful though. much more faithful than i have been. i've tried to be wise and use these lessons that he's taught me as well as some of the other more disasterous lessons i've seen in the lives of other christian leaders. i've seen fruit from my convictions as well.

on many occasions i've been around catz who were drinking. they'd offer me something and i refuse. they'd ask me if i drink which opened up a door for the gospel. everytime, i tell em nah. i been there and done that. i tell em Jesus delivered me and now i don't need to drink b/c i got something better. i tell em i've already been where they're at. i've already experienced what alcohol and drugs have to offer but i'm not convinced. it might gladden the heart for a season but at what expense?

i tell em i've found the Holy Spirit to be much more enjoyable! i tell em i know what being smoked out and high, buzzed and drunk feels like. but the joy and high i get from the Holy Ghost FAR outweigh anything this world has to offer. i don't judge them for what they do. i just do me and invite them to experience what i have.

fam, i hear everything you and others are saying on the topic. you've studied the word and come to your own conclusion. i have no beef with that. but like i said earlier, no man taught me to live the way i do. i'm simply trying to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance in MY life. i type these words not to condemn you or anybody else for what you do. i type these words to encourage others who have similar convictions or might be on the fence concerning this issue. i pray some of the things said have encouraged someone. and even if you disagree with some or all of my reasoning, i hope this has been educational. i know i've learned alot in this thread so to God be the glory!

BondServant
06-25-2007, 09:24 AM
BondServant, several years ago there was a guy i had been discipling. me and a friend pulled him aside and kinda took him under our wings so to speak. i haven't had much to do with alcohol since i got saved. but on one occasion i had been drinking. as i recall, i don't think i was drunk but i was definately buzzin. well i was at the store and i saw that young christian i had been mentoring. now understand, baton rouge isn't this huge city but it's not exactly a small town either. you don't expect to run into people you know, much less those you've been witnessing and ministering to. but that day i did.

he didn't see me but nevertheless i was SO convicted. The Lord taught me something that day. you don't really know who's around or who's watching your walk. from that day forward i started looking at things differently. i don't know every clerk at every store i might choose to buy alcohol from but they may know me or know someone who knows me. nowadays there's alot of people lookin for an excuse to disregard christianity. the enemy roams around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. he's more than happy to not only murder someone physically but also kill their reputation, witness and character. we see these things happen daily. that's ample reason for me to stand on the side of caution.

here's another experience more recently...

i thank God my for relationship with Him. But i haven't always been as close to the Lord as i am now. i haven't always been as consecrated as i try to be presently. i can remember a time when i wasn't really walking with the Lord as I should. well anyway, out of the blue, this guy called me to come and preach- not next week or in a couple of days. he needed me in a couple of hours. i didn't have time to repent and fully seek the Lord in restoration like i would have wanted. that day the Lord taught me something else. i have to be ready at a moments notice to minister. there's no time to get ready. i gotta stay ready. i gotta stay sober minded and ready to give a reason for the hope that i have. and no, i'm not implying anything about you or anybody else. i speaking about me.

the Lord is faithful though. much more faithful than i have been. i've tried to be wise and use these lessons that he's taught me as well as some of the other more disasterous lessons i've seen in the lives of other christian leaders. i've seen fruit from my convictions as well.

on many occasions i've been around catz who were drinking. they'd offer me something and i refuse. they'd ask me if i drink which opened up a door for the gospel. everytime, i tell em nah. i been there and done that. i tell em Jesus delivered me and now i don't need to drink b/c i got something better. i tell em i've already been where they're at. i've already experienced what alcohol and drugs have to offer but i'm not convinced. it might gladden the heart for a season but at what expense?

i tell em i've found the Holy Spirit to be much more enjoyable! i tell em i know what being smoked out and high, buzzed and drunk feels like. but the joy and high i get from the Holy Ghost FAR outweigh anything this world has to offer. i don't judge them for what they do. i just do me and invite them to experience what i have.

fam, i hear everything you and others are saying on the topic. you've studied the word and come to your own conclusion. i have no beef with that. but like i said earlier, no man taught me to live the way i do. i'm simply trying to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance in MY life. i type these words not to condemn you or anybody else for what you do. i type these words to encourage others who have similar convictions or might be on the fence concerning this issue. i pray some of the things said have encouraged someone. and even if you disagree with some or all of my reasoning, i hope this has been educational. i know i've learned alot in this thread so to God be the glory!


son of man,

Glory to God that you don't drink. You are fully convinced in your mind, so it would be sin for you to drink. If we were together, I wouldn't drink around you. I've got the Holy Spirit too. I've got Jesus too. I know the Joy of the Lord outweighs all this stuff too. I don't seek to find rest or eternal gladness from alcohol.

When I eat, I eat to the glory of God, and when I drink, I drink to the Glory of God.

Love you bro.

Knyce924
06-25-2007, 10:07 AM
I drink root beer

Yea I don't drink beer at all either, never have either. Root beer is good tho..regular beer even smells off.


I'm an IBC man just because the bottle is made of glass.:biggrin:

I actually had IBC for the first time last friday actually, we went out to eat.. it was weird drinking soda out of a glass like that lol it was good tho, their Creme soda is bomb also =)

No beer tho 1)i'm underage and 2) I prefer not

phil
06-25-2007, 10:22 AM
Yo Son of Man,

this is said in humility.. but your ignorance of wine is made clear in that next to last post!

you said "distilled" you dont distill wine

wine and beer and ale, are natural fermented drinks

distilled drinks are liquor and that is restricted from normal grocery stores (you can only get that stuff in ABC stores ... at least in NC)

perhaps our wine is slightly stronger, because of stronger yeasts found and used, but we are talking going from maybe 18&#37; to 20-22% alcohole by volume

famo, our SOME!!! wine maybe have a SLIGHTLY higher level of alcohole... but mostly its very close... and the rule of thumb there would be... drink SLIGHTLY less or ALOT less then if it was lower levels of alcohole

the LAW restricts getting DRUNK!!! not drinking "good or strong wine"

honestly, SOM... i appreciate your zeal for holiness!!! I really do, I do believe you want to please the lord and concecrate yourself before him

I also believe the amish are truely trying to please the lord, as are the orthodox jews and nuns up in convents with black head peices

and i also believe God is pleased when folks who love him, seperate themself for him by denying themselves. but you and the amish and the nuns all got a misunderstanding of God's rules and are wrongly applying your man made rules on others.

Holiness before the Lord is the most important thing, I lead a holy life... I constantly tell my youth group to live holy lives.... I tell them to avoid temptation and teach on how to confront and destroy sin in their lives and how to approach a brother in sin. Restoring people to God.... keeping impure thoughts out of your mind and heart... ect

Holiness is so vital!!!! You and I agree here. You are just misunderstanding on the fact that wine and fermented drink in moderation is part of our blessed life and comes from God and is not seperate from a holy life.

Please in prayer and holiness search the BIBLE, not the american church (which rebuke moderate alcohole, yet tolerates gluttony, divorce and compromise in sexual impurity... "as long as they are gonna get married" type junk)

seek the bible, do a word study, EXEGITE what the word "wine" actually means (dont assume your pastor is correct... dont assume I or Bondservant are correct) study to find out on your own

get you a concordance & see what wine really refers to... wikipedia what levels of alcohole is in our COMMON modern wine verse ancient wine..... they have certain wines made from superyeasts which increase the levels some... but is probably not what Bond, Neb, Myself, ect... drink

I pray you will grow in your understanding of God's blessings, freedom, and moral restrictions in your study.

Grace and peace fam!

feel free to hit me up on email

ctidemusic@hotmail.com

king neb
06-25-2007, 10:39 AM
I have a question. If we prohibit drinking as Christians, is this a good witness to non-believers? Imagine you're witnessing to someone who drinks responsibly.

No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."

Why should a non-believer listen to anything you have to say if you just create the rules as you go and disregard what God has said?

"hey sir, I want you to believe God's Word...follow Him....uhhh...except this alcohol part because we clearly have story after story that proves that alcohol is bad."

____

This is why i jumped on this thread. I'm not merely interested in defending my right to pop the top. There are more fundamental...more important issues here...issues that affect all other topics as well.

Like:

1. Ultimate Authority - some have revealed that their ultimate authority is not God, but experiences, stats, and other things.

2. Logic - some have revealed either an outright denial or severe lack of understanding in basic valid reasoning (logic).

3. Empiricism - some have revealed a strong adherence to the idea that knowledge comes through experience. That universals are determined by scientific fact and polls.

All three of these, i believe, are intermingled. And it is these types of things that create problems in other areas, such as holiness, salvation, eschatology...you name it.

______

So again. NO, it would be a HORRIBLE witness because of what such arguments imply on a foundational level.

WhyMe
06-25-2007, 10:47 AM
Understandable brethren.

Let me hit you with this - if it's based on appearance, would it be okay at a gathering of believers who all held the same understanding of alcohol (not sinful, but only drunkenness is sinful, Psalm 104, etc...etc...) ?



No argument from me here(if the gathering is in a basement:wink: LOL, j/k)

phil
06-25-2007, 10:50 AM
AMEN NEB!!!!

Unregenerate men that don't have the Holy Spirit living inside of them to distinguish themselves as holy, will create there our system to appear holy and pious for the sake of there conscience or for the sake of other men.

Then even regenerate men that have a misunderstanding of God's righteousness create laws unto themselves, and do not live holy before the lord, rather holy before themselves, or holy before other men.


1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
..........
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."



1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

WhyMe
06-25-2007, 11:20 AM
No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."

Why should a non-believer listen to anything you have to say if you just create the rules as you go and disregard what God has said?

"hey sir, I want you to believe God's Word...follow Him....uhhh...except this alcohol part because we clearly have story after story that proves that alcohol is bad."

____

This is why i jumped on this thread. I'm not merely interested in defending my right to pop the top. There are more fundamental...more important issues here...issues that affect all other topics as well.

Like:

1. Ultimate Authority - some have revealed that their ultimate authority is not God, but experiences, stats, and other things.

2. Logic - some have revealed either an outright denial or severe lack of understanding in basic valid reasoning (logic).

3. Empiricism - some have revealed a strong adherence to the idea that knowledge comes through experience. That universals are determined by scientific fact and polls.

All three of these, i believe, are intermingled. And it is these types of things that create problems in other areas, such as holiness, salvation, eschatology...you name it.

______

So again. NO, it would be a HORRIBLE witness because of what such arguments imply on a foundational level.

Your argument is actually unbiblical. Read Romans 14. If a weaker Christian thinks they are honoring God by avoiding something, then they are. That being said, they should not say alcohol is a sin because that is also unbiblical. Remember Cyple's Question was "if we prohibit drinking as Christians" not "Christians calling alcohol a sin"



Originally Posted by Cyple
I have a question. If we prohibit drinking as Christians, is this a good witness to non-believers? Imagine you're witnessing to someone who drinks responsibly.

I will explain the biblical position on Alcohol when somebody ask me why I don't drink. I explain to them alcohol is not a sin, getting drunk is a sin so I choose to avoid the possibility of getting drunk. It's responsibility. Kind of like not being alone with a girl when her parents are not home to avoid the possibility of sex.

phil
06-25-2007, 11:34 AM
Your argument is actually unbiblical. Read Romans 14. If a weaker Christian thinks they are honoring God by avoiding something, then they are. That being said, they should not say alcohol is a sin because that is also unbiblical. Remember Cyple's Question was "if we prohibit drinking as Christians" not "Christians calling alcohol a sin"

but thats not what we are saying.... clearly many christians are saying "drinking is a sin".

just like the converts whom the letter of hebrews or galatians was written to.

if drinking is going to cause my brother to fall into the sin of drunkeness... fine, I wont drink. If drinking is going to cause my brother to think I am a sinner? Come on now. Do yuo listen to HHH? That might cause some folks to think you believe secular hip hop is good.

If listening to HHH in front of a new convert will kick him back to tuning to Hot 97.... i wont listen in front of him. If listening to HHH will cause a pharisee in the church who doesnt understand the law to think I am a sinner. Please!

I still wont bump it in front of him for the sake of living in peace, same with drinking in front of them. But im not going to let ones bondage and legalism dictate my life, thats is unbiblical.

Weakness & legalism are not the same. If a brother is weak with alcohol, thats a legitimate reason not to drink.... if a brother is legalistic with alcohol... that is not.

WhyMe
06-25-2007, 11:39 AM
but thats not what we are saying.... clearly many christians are saying "drinking is a sin".

just like the converts whom the letter of hebrews or galatians was written to.

if drinking is going to cause my brother to fall into the sin of drunkeness... fine, I wont drink. If drinking is going to cause my brother to think I am a sinner? Come on now. Do yuo listen to HHH? That might cause some folks to think you believe secular hip hop is good.

If listening to HHH in front of a new convert will kick him back to tuning to Hot 97.... i wont listen in front of him. If listening to HHH will cause a pharisee in the church who doesnt understand the law to think I am a sinner. Please!

I still wont bump it in front of him for the sake of living in peace, same with drinking in front of them. But im not going to let ones bondage and legalism dictate my life, thats is unbiblical.

Weakness & legalism are not the same. If a brother is weak with alcohol, thats a legitimate reason not to drink.... if a brother is legalistic with alcohol... that is not.

I should have shortened King Neb's resposne to Cyple's question to



No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."

The weaker Christians in Romans 14 avoided food (in the word's of King Neb)"whether or not God approves it"


That is what I am referring to.

phil
06-25-2007, 11:44 AM
I should have shortened King Neb's resposne to Cyple's question to



The weaker Christians in Romans 14 avoided food (in the word's of King Neb)"whether or not God approves it"


That is what I am referring to.

no doubt "weak" christian

most likely a convert from idol worship... eating "idol" meat was something he had to avoid

just like an ex-drunk should probably avoid beer and wine while they are baby christians

and so should the strong mature christians in front of them

I believe SOM made some good points about your witness to alcoholics, just doesnt set a moral standard for our private and person lives as christians in reguard to alcohol.

king neb
06-25-2007, 12:23 PM
Whyme,

What does Romans 14 have to do with non-believers?

king neb
06-25-2007, 12:37 PM
it should also be noted to that in Romans 14 (which is in the context of believers), the weak one is the one who eats vegetables only. The weak ones are the ones who declare unclean what God has declared clean.

ESV Romans 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.

Somehow, that has been completely twisted and reversed from some here. Some of you would have us believe that the strong ones are the ones who completely abstain from wine, while the weak ones are those who drink it...possibly flirting with drunkenness and the appearance of evil.

What takes stronger discipline - to avoid something altogether or to exercise moderation?

StreetSermonz
06-25-2007, 12:44 PM
I was JUST reading Romans 14, check this out Neb - "20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

I wouldn't say drinking beer is a sin for everyone. It is a heart issue tho, if it messes with one's conscience, becomes an idol, or causes another to stumble as Romans 14 points out.

It also depends on your office. If you are called to be an Elder, Bishop, I would even argue a Pastor, we are told not to drink wine, either in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 (somebody look up that passage, I don't have time I gotta go!)

"I don't get tipsy, I don't drink beer" - Believin' Stephen Brindle

phil
06-25-2007, 12:54 PM
I was JUST reading Romans 14, check this out Neb - "20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

I wouldn't say drinking beer is a sin for everyone. It is a heart issue tho, if it messes with one's conscience, becomes an idol, or causes another to stumble as Romans 14 points out.

this applies to everything, nobody is disagreeing with this. again, do you eat cake? do you watch TV, do you enjoy sports?


It also depends on your office. If you are called to be an Elder, Bishop, I would even argue a Pastor, we are told not to drink wine, either in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 (somebody look up that passage, I don't have time I gotta go!)

"I don't get tipsy, I don't drink beer" - Believin' Stephen Brindle


"3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money."


"not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain"

^^^^"given to drunkeness!!!!" "lover of money!!!!" nothing in this verse can conclude anything wrong with money or wine

son of man
06-25-2007, 12:58 PM
son of man,

Glory to God that you don't drink. You are fully convinced in your mind, so it would be sin for you to drink. If we were together, I wouldn't drink around you. I've got the Holy Spirit too. I've got Jesus too. I know the Joy of the Lord outweighs all this stuff too. I don't seek to find rest or eternal gladness from alcohol.

When I eat, I eat to the glory of God, and when I drink, I drink to the Glory of God.

Love you bro.*daps BondServant up, gives him a hug, then puts him in a headlock and gives him a nugee for that virgin daquiri rebuttal:biggrin:

seal
06-25-2007, 01:00 PM
i personally don't believe Jesus drunk alcohol. the pharisees accused him of being a winebibber but that doesn't mean he drank alcohol. that just means they accused Him of being a drunk. they also accused him of casting out devils by the power of beelzebub. but that doesn't mean Jesus had anything to do with witchcraft. besides, even some of the onlookers on the day of pentecost mocked and accused the apostles of being drunk. if anybody disagrees, no problem. i'm simply reasoning from the scriptures.


You are not reasoning from the scriptures and you are confused about Christ b/c Christ says that he drinks.

Matthew 11:16-19

16"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,
17"'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

What do you think he says he's drinking cookie??? It can't be water b/c them accussing him of being a drunkard would make no sense. I think you need to start considering that you are beyond the scriptures right now and in showing clear personal convictions. It's really not called for and you need to consult your Pastor or Elder on this matter. B/c you are clearly in error as shown by everyone on here but you refuse to accept correction. So I suggest that's where you go.

Hail King Jesus,
seal

king neb
06-25-2007, 01:07 PM
21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Yes, but what does that mean? Does that mean that we are to prohibit any and all things that make others stumble? Is that what Paul is saying?

Listening to hiphop tempts people.
Wearing shorts tempts people.
Being on the internet tempts people.

Do you eat at all in public? And if so, what do you eat?

See where i am going with this? You can name just about any human activity and someone, somewhere, calls it "sin" or says it leads to it.

Hip hoppers ought to know this better than any. How many times have we come across a 'Christian' who said that it was wrong to rap? I have...a ton of times having lived in a small country town in Alabama.

Christian hip-hop offends THOUSANDS. Wearing shorts offends thousands. Using the internet offends thousands.

My wife just got an email from an old friend from alabama who questions any Christian with a myspace page because of all the filth on there.

So, is that what Paul is saying there? Drop any and everything that offends people?

I think not. And i don't think anyone here does either, (for how could we do anything) YET, some argue that way when it comes to alcohol for some reason.

aficianado_jc
06-25-2007, 02:50 PM
The points in this last post from king neb are good.

Believers should examine every area of life. Drinking isn't a sin itself. Those who choose to drink should truly examine whether they are being a stumblingblock. If at the bar at TGI Friday's with a bunch of non-believing coworkers and you are seen by a teenager who you mentor, may be. If at a wedding, drinking a glass of champagne as part of the toast, probably not. There is no one answer. That is why we need the Holy Spirit for direction.

Eating is different. If you are eating at a restaurant in public, everyone has to eat so that alone isn't a reasonable discussion. If you are in great shape, and eating a big dessert in front of your cousin who you know is struggling with their diet, may be.

Wearing shorts is different. If a female wears modest shorts halfway down her thigh in the Middle East, yes. If a female wears modest shorts halfway down her thigh in downtown Chicago, no. There is no one answer but we should examine our behavior and let God get us where He wants us to be and not assume we are OK.

Personally, for drinking, I choose not to as I know that particular area can't have me being a stumblingblock. In the US of A, the secular culture is based around the deificiation of beer. I choose not to be part of that culture at all.

Personally for eating, I eat healthy for the most part. For females wearing shorts, I think believers are better than non-believers but some can do a better job of not giving brothers so much to look at. To them, they are being cute, to some young brothas trying to do the right thing, they are giving visuals and a stumbling block.

phil
06-25-2007, 02:54 PM
what about wearing skimpy shorts at home alone :eek:

king neb
06-25-2007, 03:42 PM
hey, when the kids are not home i dance with the wolves.

phil
06-25-2007, 03:52 PM
hey, when the kids are not home i dance with the wolves.

wonderful

C-dero
06-25-2007, 03:55 PM
Chicken and waffles drinking liquor from the Bottle-Cruz Cordero

Thats all I gotta say!

C-dero
06-25-2007, 03:57 PM
When I am home. I wear my cashmere trench coat with a scarf. Cat got his heat cut off!! Wait, its summer! Never mind.

WhyMe
06-25-2007, 04:01 PM
Whyme,

What does Romans 14 have to do with non-believers?

Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever.

Would Paul say all this about people who don't drink or avoid certain foods:



No. Because there is an underlying problem, unrelated to alcohol, in doing such a thing and that is - "regardless of whether or not God approves it, I'm going to ban it."

Why should a non-believer listen to anything you have to say if you just create the rules as you go and disregard what God has said?

"hey sir, I want you to believe God's Word...follow Him....uhhh...except this alcohol part because we clearly have story after story that proves that alcohol is bad."

____

This is why i jumped on this thread. I'm not merely interested in defending my right to pop the top. There are more fundamental...more important issues here...issues that affect all other topics as well.

Like:

1. Ultimate Authority - some have revealed that their ultimate authority is not God, but experiences, stats, and other things.

2. Logic - some have revealed either an outright denial or severe lack of understanding in basic valid reasoning (logic).

3. Empiricism - some have revealed a strong adherence to the idea that knowledge comes through experience. That universals are determined by scientific fact and polls.

All three of these, i believe, are intermingled. And it is these types of things that create problems in other areas, such as holiness, salvation, eschatology...you name it.

______

So again. NO, it would be a HORRIBLE witness because of what such arguments imply on a foundational level.

I don't think so. And the weaker Christian in this "drinking beer" case is myself and others who avoid drinking beer according to Romans 14. I wasn't calling people drinking beer a weak christian.

Anyway, God is soverign and can use both the drinker and non drinker as a witness. So to argue "which is a better witness" is pointless. To say one is better than the other is flat out arrogant and wrong. Both sides can give countless stories being a witness for Christ as we have seen here. God is Good.

BondServant
06-25-2007, 04:03 PM
I thought about something. Dealing with the appearance of evil argument.

The Lemonade you ordered looks just like a Tom Collins.

That Coke you ordered looks like a Coke and Rum.

That Pink Lemonade looks like a mixed drink.

That OJ you ordered looks like Gin and Juice.

You think you're safe by ordering water, but somebody may think you're an alcoholic drinking straight vodka.

There's no escaping, dun dun dun, the appearance of eeeeeviiiiil.

OrthodoX
06-25-2007, 04:07 PM
Any thoughts on my post? Do you all think I explain why the Bible (proverbs for example) presents alcohol in a positive and at times a negative light? Obviously alcohol can be used for good or for evil..as all things can be.

many Christians will say that they "don't judge" those who drink. By saying that they are inferring that drinking is not a good thing to do. Scripture however at times presents alcohol and its use as a good thing, a blessing in fact.

My pastor, friends from church and I often go out after church for a beer and those times are some of my favorite times of fellowship.

As far as avoiding the appearance of evil goes...

what is the biblical standard for evil? Is it really leaving it up to us to decide, or in other words, if someone is under the opinion that what you are doing is evil then you should not do that thing?

This does not make sense socially or biblically. In some cultures it is considered evil to teach that Jesus is King of the universe. Should we not bring the gosple to these people?

To avoid the appearance of evil is to avoid evil. To use and enjoy alcohol as God intended is not just "not sin" it is worship.

Shalom-

DoX

I have yet a response to my explaination for why alcohol is sometimes in the negative light scripturally, and what is meant by avoiding the appearence of evil.

phil
06-25-2007, 04:09 PM
I thought about something. Dealing with the appearance of evil argument.

The Lemonade you ordered looks just like a Tom Collins.

That Coke you ordered looks like a Coke and Rum.

That Pink Lemonade looks like a mixed drink.

That OJ you ordered looks like Gin and Juice.

You think you're safe by ordering water, but somebody may think you're an alcoholic drinking straight vodka.

There's no escaping, dun dun dun, the appearance of eeeeeviiiiil.

the issue with the "appearance of evil" argument is even deeper then that!

they are assuming that alcohol is evil, if i am talking normal and walking straight, i don't appear drunk! holding a beer, doesn't give the appearance of evil... it gives the appearance of something wrongly labeled evil.

for that matter, girls wearing pants appears evil to some people... but that does not fall under the appearance of evil scriptural principal.

king neb
06-25-2007, 04:43 PM
"Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever."

No i didn't. I 'put down' Christians who think that they would improve upon their witness to non-believers by calling something sin God doesn't call sin.

Granted, i may have misunderstood Cyples' question. Maybe he can clarify it some.

He specifically said to imagine that you are witnessing to a non-believer who drinks moderately. Now, why in the world would i "prohibit alcohol" as an attempt to improve upon my witness when the non-believer himself is doing something that is not "sinful" and he himself probably doesn't view as "evil"? that doesn't make any sense.

You misunderstood me. I did not nor would i ever put down a Christian for not drinking alcohol. I will call a person out though for referring to it as a sin and questioning the maturity of those who do drink, as has been done on this thread.

aficianado_jc
06-25-2007, 05:05 PM
For those who drink regularly, do you believe that all Christians who drink regularly meet God's standard of not getting drunk, not being a stumblingblock, not having appearance of evil? If the answer to the question is no, what is the difference(or examples of differences) between those who meet God's standard and those who don't?

WhyMe
06-25-2007, 05:10 PM
I thought about something. Dealing with the appearance of evil argument.

The Lemonade you ordered looks just like a Tom Collins.

That Coke you ordered looks like a Coke and Rum.

That Pink Lemonade looks like a mixed drink.

That OJ you ordered looks like Gin and Juice.

You think you're safe by ordering water, but somebody may think you're an alcoholic drinking straight vodka.

There's no escaping, dun dun dun, the appearance of eeeeeviiiiil.


That is why Christians should only drink water. :biggrin:

WhyMe
06-25-2007, 05:11 PM
"Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever."

No i didn't. I 'put down' Christians who think that they would improve upon their witness to non-believers by calling something sin God doesn't call sin.

Granted, i may have misunderstood Cyples' question. Maybe he can clarify it some.

He specifically said to imagine that you are witnessing to a non-believer who drinks moderately. Now, why in the world would i "prohibit alcohol" as an attempt to improve upon my witness when the non-believer himself is doing something that is not "sinful" and he himself probably doesn't view as "evil"? that doesn't make any sense.

You misunderstood me. I did not nor would i ever put down a Christian for not drinking alcohol. I will call a person out though for referring to it as a sin and questioning the maturity of those who do drink, as has been done on this thread.

OK cool, I understand your position better.

seal
06-25-2007, 05:12 PM
I actually practice skiing when no one is looking without ski's or snow....:spinny:

WhyMe
06-25-2007, 05:14 PM
they are assuming that alcohol is evil

Umm no, that has never been my argument for the "appearance of evil". Please reread what I have posted already on the appearance of evil and you will see your comment is incorrect.

phil
06-25-2007, 05:16 PM
why, i know you dont intend on that... but that is how it boils down

if not, how then does it look evil?

if i am completely in control of my body, how does drinking a beer appear evil? Since, it does not appear as though I am drunk.

Rather, you are saying moderate consumption is incorrectly "thought of as being evil". Not "drinking moderately has the appearance of evil"

Since HHH is thought of as evil, and if yuo are speeding by it sounds like secular hip hop... should you stop listening to it?

Cyple
06-26-2007, 07:36 AM
"Romans 14 is about believers, but you are putting down people who don't drink as being an inferior witness to the unbeliever."

No i didn't. I 'put down' Christians who think that they would improve upon their witness to non-believers by calling something sin God doesn't call sin.

Granted, i may have misunderstood Cyples' question. Maybe he can clarify it some.

He specifically said to imagine that you are witnessing to a non-believer who drinks moderately. Now, why in the world would i "prohibit alcohol" as an attempt to improve upon my witness when the non-believer himself is doing something that is not "sinful" and he himself probably doesn't view as "evil"? that doesn't make any sense.

You misunderstood me. I did not nor would i ever put down a Christian for not drinking alcohol. I will call a person out though for referring to it as a sin and questioning the maturity of those who do drink, as has been done on this thread.

Nope you answered it perfectly. I brought it up because I would be convicted if I told someone that drinking alcohol is a sin. I would have no problem telling them they would need to abstain if they had a problem with alcohol.

son of man
06-26-2007, 09:58 AM
Yo Son of Man,

this is said in humility.. but your ignorance of wine is made clear in that next to last post!

you said "distilled" you dont distill wine

wine and beer and ale, are natural fermented drinks

distilled drinks are liquor and that is restricted from normal grocery stores (you can only get that stuff in ABC stores ... at least in NC)

perhaps our wine is slightly stronger, because of stronger yeasts found and used, but we are talking going from maybe 18% to 20-22% alcohole by volume

famo, our SOME!!! wine maybe have a SLIGHTLY higher level of alcohole... but mostly its very close... and the rule of thumb there would be... drink SLIGHTLY less or ALOT less then if it was lower levels of alcohole

the LAW restricts getting DRUNK!!! not drinking "good or strong wine"

honestly, SOM... i appreciate your zeal for holiness!!! I really do, I do believe you want to please the lord and concecrate yourself before him

I also believe the amish are truely trying to please the lord, as are the orthodox jews and nuns up in convents with black head peices

and i also believe God is pleased when folks who love him, seperate themself for him by denying themselves. but you and the amish and the nuns all got a misunderstanding of God's rules and are wrongly applying your man made rules on others.

Holiness before the Lord is the most important thing, I lead a holy life... I constantly tell my youth group to live holy lives.... I tell them to avoid temptation and teach on how to confront and destroy sin in their lives and how to approach a brother in sin. Restoring people to God.... keeping impure thoughts out of your mind and heart... ect

Holiness is so vital!!!! You and I agree here. You are just misunderstanding on the fact that wine and fermented drink in moderation is part of our blessed life and comes from God and is not seperate from a holy life.

Please in prayer and holiness search the BIBLE, not the american church (which rebuke moderate alcohole, yet tolerates gluttony, divorce and compromise in sexual impurity... "as long as they are gonna get married" type junk)

seek the bible, do a word study, EXEGITE what the word "wine" actually means (dont assume your pastor is correct... dont assume I or Bondservant are correct) study to find out on your own

get you a concordance & see what wine really refers to... wikipedia what levels of alcohole is in our COMMON modern wine verse ancient wine..... they have certain wines made from superyeasts which increase the levels some... but is probably not what Bond, Neb, Myself, ect... drink

I pray you will grow in your understanding of God's blessings, freedom, and moral restrictions in your study.

Grace and peace fam!

feel free to hit me up on email

ctidemusic@hotmail.comwhat's good ctide? i appreciate the manner in which you responded and i'll try to extend that same spirit of kindness and gentleness to you.:)

i'm not an expert on wine by any stretch of the imagination. but there is a such thing as a wine distillery. from my limited understanding, distilled alcohol is sometimes refered to as 'burnt wine'. now i have no problem accepting the stats you gave concerning the alcohol content of wine today.

however, keep in mind that the wine you buy today is consumed in the same manner it's packaged (straight to the dome sort to speak) whereas wine in biblical days was often dilluted with water to prevent intoxication. but honestly, the more i understand you guys position, the less that matters (as BondServant pointed out) b/c you feel you have the liberty to partake of any alcohol as long as it's done in moderation.

now for some reason you placed me in a box with the amish, claiming that i apply my man made rules on others? i don't believe at one time in this thread i ever forced my personal convictions on anyone. on the contrary, i've been specifically targeted as one who needs to abandon his beliefs and convictions. in my very first post i said the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit drinking alcohol. i said it warns against it. and in this thread i've simply been warning against it. i've said countless times that i don't judge people for what they do. i've said that's b/w them and the Lord. for some reason i feel as though catz been misunderstanding me and putting words in my mouth.

you invited me to do a word study on the word 'wine' which is exactly what i've been encouraging catz to do for themselves...lol. but for the sake of anybody who cares, i'll do a simple one:

in the NT, the greek word for 'wine' (like Bondservant pointed out) is oinos. it's strongs number 3631 designated as a primary word (or perhaps of hebrew origin [3196] defined simply as 'wine' (how helpful huh?). strongs doesn't say much but then again he does. he's not entirely sure what to do with this greek word. but he leans toward it being a primary word vs being derived from hebrew origin.

nowhere in his definition does he say anything about fermentation. however, if you look up his reference of 3196 which is one of the hebrew words translated 'wine' in the OT he's more detailed:

yayin; from an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication. strongs clearly shows that he's able to classify wine as being fermented whenever he sees fit. but in the case of the greek #3196, he's not entirely convinced so he's more ambiguous. so let's get a second opinion...

vine's defines the same greek word oinos as the general word for wine. and says the mention of the bursting of the wineskins, matt. 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37, implies fermentation. vines doesn't say the word in and of itself means fermented wine. he merely argues that the context of certain passages imply fermentation, which is exactly what i've been saying all along.

i don't care whether or not a person argues that a given context suggests fermentation. i only care that they examine the context and come to their own conclusion. i just wanted catz to take the time to know what some of the issues were before blindly assuming that just b/c it's translated 'wine' it means alcohol.

i could give many other definitions from scholars who take matters even further but i've chosen to stick with two pretty conservative ones who many christians have access to. even these leave room for what i've been saying about how wine can refer to fermented or unfermented drink. if you're not personally convinced, that's fine. this is just my humble attempt to let cats see there's 2 sides on every coin.

son of man
06-26-2007, 10:37 AM
You are not reasoning from the scriptures and you are confused about Christ b/c Christ says that he drinks.

Matthew 11:16-19

16"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,
17"'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

What do you think he says he's drinking cookie??? It can't be water b/c them accussing him of being a drunkard would make no sense. I think you need to start considering that you are beyond the scriptures right now and in showing clear personal convictions. It's really not called for and you need to consult your Pastor or Elder on this matter. B/c you are clearly in error as shown by everyone on here but you refuse to accept correction. So I suggest that's where you go.

Hail King Jesus,
sealSeal, the scriptures aren't always as black and white as you make them out to be my friend. in matt. 11 Jesus doesn't explicitly tell us He drank alcohol. now granted the context could suggest that he drank alcohol so your interpretation is valid. however, it's not the only interpretation that exists.

the pharisees accusing Jesus of being a drunk, no more means that He drank alcohol than them accusing Him of casting out devils by beelzebub means that He was a sorceror. keep in mind that these were people who hated Him with a passion and refused to accept Him due to unbelief.

in that passage Jesus was saying that regardless of how God revealed Himself to them, they would continue to come up with unwarranted accusations and ways to find fault. that's sorta like whenever christians try to dialogue with other believers and fail to find grace regardless of how they present themselves.

i argue that the pharisees called Jesus a drunk, not b/c they saw him drink alcohol but b/c they were by nature envious, jealous and unbelieving. if you don't agree with that interpretation that's fine. but please don't accuse me of going beyond the scriptures just b/c i choose to travel beyond your interpretation. the fact that you had to ask me what i believe Jesus drank shows the grey area associated with this particular scripture. personally, i think it was grape juice.

but seriously fam, i'd still love to build with you more on the subject. i'm looking forward to that empathy you promised me earlier.:wink: do you have any insight into why God demanded alcoholic wine to be used as a drink offering? or why he told israel they could buy alcohol in regards to their tithe? do you believe that alcohol is an acceptable form of worship today?

BondServant
06-26-2007, 11:12 AM
That is why Christians should only drink water. :biggrin:

psst...hey...WhyMe, read that post again, water looks like Vodka. You can't get away with anything.

"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God"

I'll drink to that!

WhyMe
06-26-2007, 11:21 AM
psst...hey...WhyMe, read that post again, water looks like Vodka. You can't get away with anything.

"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God"

I'll drink to that!

I was just joking. I don't really believe that.


Serious question though, how does one who drink, decide the difference between "getting buzzed", "tipsy", and Drunk? When you guys drink do you get buzzed? What is the line? How does the bible define drunk?

BondServant
06-26-2007, 11:27 AM
I was just joking. I don't really believe that.

I know you don't. I was just saying that because you and others argue for appearance of evil, that it's impossible, because all non-alcoholic drinks can look like alcoholic drinks.



Serious question though, how does one who drink, decide the difference between "getting buzzed", "tipsy", and Drunk? When you guys drink do you get buzzed? What is the line? How does the bible define drunk?

I get buzzes. There is no definition to tipsy in scripture.

As far as being drunk, most the examples are of cats been wasted or hammered. Noah and Lot for example. Them dudes were far past that of being drunk. Noah was laid out naked(I guess his stuff wasn't so diluted with water as some here have suggested). Lot was so wasted that his own daughters had sex with him(2 nights in a row), and he had no clue. That's some pretty heavy drinking. And the other times would be drunkards, alcoholics. Those who get drunk and then in the morning go looking for some more yak. They make a habit out of it.

But we do find that God has encouraged it's use, and in some circumstances in large amounts(but that's debatable), and it was used to make life merry.

Cowboy
06-26-2007, 02:01 PM
Seal, the scriptures aren't always as black and white as you make them out to be my friend. in matt. 11 Jesus doesn't explicitly tell us He drank alcohol. now granted the context could suggest that he drank alcohol so your interpretation is valid. however, it's not the only interpretation that exists.

the pharisees accusing Jesus of being a drunk, no more means that He drank alcohol than them accusing Him of casting out devils by beelzebub means that He was a sorceror. keep in mind that these were people who hated Him with a passion and refused to accept Him due to unbelief.

in that passage Jesus was saying that regardless of how God revealed Himself to them, they would continue to come up with unwarranted accusations and ways to find fault. that's sorta like whenever christians try to dialogue with other believers and fail to find grace regardless of how they present themselves.

i argue that the pharisees called Jesus a drunk, not b/c they saw him drink alcohol but b/c they were by nature envious, jealous and unbelieving. if you don't agree with that interpretation that's fine. but please don't accuse me of going beyond the scriptures just b/c i choose to travel beyond your interpretation. the fact that you had to ask me what i believe Jesus drank shows the grey area associated with this particular scripture. personally, i think it was grape juice.

but seriously fam, i'd still love to build with you more on the subject. i'm looking forward to that empathy you promised me earlier.:wink: do you have any insight into why God demanded alcoholic wine to be used as a drink offering? or why he told israel they could buy alcohol in regards to their tithe? do you believe that alcohol is an acceptable form of worship today?

But that doesn't make sense. You're forgetting the part of the scripture where JESUS points out that John didn't drink.....so, stop there and ask what John didn't drink. Grape Juice? And it isn't logical to think that they'd call Him a drunkard if He only drank grape juice, just because they were jealous or envious. That makes no sense and wouldn't have to be even acknowledged. I think what Seal was getting at is that you're the one interpreting the scripture more to fit what you already believe than anyone else is. Study out hermeneutics, figure some of that stuff out. I challenge you to go and read something NOT written by a Christian about the "wine" and "grape juice" of those days. And read something by Christians who maybe have a differing view than you, and see what you come up with.

son of man
06-26-2007, 02:47 PM
But that doesn't make sense. You're forgetting the part of the scripture where JESUS points out that John didn't drink.....so, stop there and ask what John didn't drink. Grape Juice? And it isn't logical to think that they'd call Him a drunkard if He only drank grape juice, just because they were jealous or envious. That makes no sense and wouldn't have to be even acknowledged. I think what Seal was getting at is that you're the one interpreting the scripture more to fit what you already believe than anyone else is. Study out hermeneutics, figure some of that stuff out. I challenge you to go and read something NOT written by a Christian about the "wine" and "grape juice" of those days. And read something by Christians who maybe have a differing view than you, and see what you come up with.Cowboy, with all due respect, catz have been takin shots at me and calling me out this entire thread. i don't mind building with you or anybody else but the references concerning me and hermeneutics have to stop. i'm not trying to push my interpretation of scripture over on anybody else. i haven't been dogmatic in any of my reasoning concerning scripture. i'm simply offering a different perspective.

if you disagree...cool. if you have questions...cool. but don't make it seem like i'm pullin stuff outta thin air. if you want to know what John didn't drink consult numbers 6:1-4.

Cowboy
06-26-2007, 02:55 PM
Cowboy, with all due respect, catz have been takin shots at me and calling me out this entire thread. i don't mind building with you or anybody else but the references concerning me and hermeneutics have to stop. i'm not trying to push my interpretation of scripture over on anybody else. i haven't been dogmatic in any of my reasoning concerning scripture. i'm simply offering a different perspective.

if you disagree...cool. if you have questions...cool. but don't make it seem like i'm pullin stuff outta thin air. if you want to know what John didn't drink consult numbers 6:1-4.

I'm not calling you out or taking shots at you. I suggested some things. It's not personal. People can offer different perspectives all they want, that's fine. But if it's still not lining up with scripture or logic, then the principle being relayed is going to get called out. Not you. Like I've said in a number of posts, that's good for you that you don't drink. That's all gravy. I have no issue there. But you were asked to prove with scripture that the wine was different back then, and you haven't. I don't think you're pulling stuff out of thin air, I just think it comes down to a misinterpretation. That's not a diss on you, or a shot at you. I'm not the one looking to see what it is John drank, but determining what Jesus drank. So, aside from the Pharisees being envious and jealous of Jesus, what makes you believe that Jesus being called a drunkard came from his drinking of grape juice? If you're done with the convo, that's fine, I didn't mean to upset you, as I'm not dealing with you as a person, but a mindset and a difference in interpretation of scripture.

WhyMe
06-26-2007, 03:51 PM
I know you don't. I was just saying that because you and others argue for appearance of evil, that it's impossible, because all non-alcoholic drinks can look like alcoholic drinks.




I get buzzes. There is no definition to tipsy in scripture.

As far as being drunk, most the examples are of cats been wasted or hammered. Noah and Lot for example. Them dudes were far past that of being drunk. Noah was laid out naked(I guess his stuff wasn't so diluted with water as some here have suggested). Lot was so wasted that his own daughters had sex with him(2 nights in a row), and he had no clue. That's some pretty heavy drinking. And the other times would be drunkards, alcoholics. Those who get drunk and then in the morning go looking for some more yak. They make a habit out of it.

But we do find that God has encouraged it's use, and in some circumstances in large amounts(but that's debatable), and it was used to make life merry.

Cool, thanks for the answer. :smile: (I don't like that the main happy face has eyebrows)

ZestD
01-02-2008, 02:40 AM
I know you don't. I was just saying that because you and others argue for appearance of evil, that it's impossible, because all non-alcoholic drinks can look like alcoholic drinks.




I get buzzes. There is no definition to tipsy in scripture.

As far as being drunk, most the examples are of cats been wasted or hammered. Noah and Lot for example. Them dudes were far past that of being drunk. Noah was laid out naked(I guess his stuff wasn't so diluted with water as some here have suggested). Lot was so wasted that his own daughters had sex with him(2 nights in a row), and he had no clue. That's some pretty heavy drinking. And the other times would be drunkards, alcoholics. Those who get drunk and then in the morning go looking for some more yak. They make a habit out of it.

But we do find that God has encouraged it's use, and in some circumstances in large amounts(but that's debatable), and it was used to make life merry.

Bomb post bondservant.

NiteLyte
01-02-2008, 02:50 AM
I don't believe that drinking alcohol is wrong. I believe that getting drunk is wrong.

Needless to say, if you're underage you can just forget about it until you're 21 and definitely avoid it altogether if alcoholism runs in your family or if you're a recovering alcoholic. Obey the law and know and protect your body/the lives of others.

Anyway, alcoholism does not run in my family, but I personally choose not to drink.

Besides, root beer is the best stuff there is other than water... Lol.

ZestD
01-02-2008, 02:51 AM
I prefer cream soda to root beer, but that's just me!

NiteLyte
01-02-2008, 03:17 AM
I prefer cream soda to root beer, but that's just me!

Hahaha, right on then! I like cream soda too. It's all a matter of personal taste. :)

They're like an old married couple, though. Gotta' love them both!

tlr
01-02-2008, 07:26 AM
not even close, besides often times whenever the bible speaks of "wine" it's actually referring to non-fermented grape juice.

the bible doesn't explicitly say not to drink alchohol but it does warn against it. but at the end of the day, folks are gonna do what they want. i won't say that doesn't make them a christian but it could cause their brother to stumble. i'd never tell anyone it's ok to drink.

i have heard this before and i can no longer keep silent on the matter. Ask anybody fron the Mediterranean and they will tell you that that is nonsense. why because they would never drink that stuff as it has been the same for centuries

Cowboy
01-02-2008, 07:30 AM
i have heard this before and i can no longer keep silent on the matter. Ask anybody fron the Mediterranean and they will tell you that that is nonsense. why because they would never drink that stuff as it has been the same for centuries

Don't worry, he won't listen. I'm cool with Son of Man and we've talked through PM a little bit, but he never did concede that there was no biblical or scientific proof that the wine was different. So don't worry, not many people here actually believe that.

Deadmanwalking
01-02-2008, 12:36 PM
Don't worry, he won't listen. I'm cool with Son of Man and we've talked through PM a little bit, but he never did concede that there was no biblical or scientific proof that the wine was different. So don't worry, not many people here actually believe that.

Ha, yeah, i rememeber i was told that the wine of their time was either non alcoholic or very weak. Then I checked into it because I kept reading scriptures that would say "they drank and were merry" or "drink and be merry" and variations of the phrase. So when i checked, all historical accounts regarding wine indicate that it WAS alcoholic. It is what it is. And like it's already been said, the drinking that was considered disgraceful according to scripture was the kind of drinking that alcoholics do. They're the ones referred to as winebibbers...and yet the rest of our fave men of GOD in the bible drank wine and were never called winebibbers. Hmmmm?

Anyway, i actually make the decision to sacrifice this freedom for the sake of "weaker" Christians. I don't want to cause confusion, division, or excuses to drink heavily. So I just avoid it. Maybe in the presence of my family from time to time. Maybe if I lived in a south american or european country where it's traditional. But since I'm an american, I'll play it smart for the sake of my brethren.

Tony Stone
01-02-2008, 12:48 PM
i never drank before and see no need to start now. It wouldn't improve my quality of life. It wouldn't improve my spiritual quality of life. But it does pose a danger to deteriate the quality of life that i have now. It also poses a danger to deteriate the spiritual quality of life.

Not drinking will lower my chances of not getting drunk by 100%

Not drinking will lower my chances of being the driver in a drunken car wreck by 100%

Not drinking will also increase the amount of money in my pocket because it's significantly cheaper than apple juice!

For those who don't drink, I wouldn't encourage them to take it up. To those who drink moderate amounts already (perhaps already were drinkers before they got saved and have significantly toned down their drinking from drunk then to occassional sipper now), while I can't sit and sip one with you, I wouldn't tell you that it's entirely unlawful (considering we're talking about a soft bev, not hard liquor). As w/ many things, it's a case of motives, intentions, and you should only go as far as you have control (and anyone who ever says they've never had a little bit too much to drink while exercising their Christian liberties to drink might not be completely honest w/ themselves).

dibri
01-02-2008, 11:02 PM
I think its kinda funny that Christians debate over this-

Our Teacher (the Messiah) served alcohol! No getting around it.

I read an interesting account from Adin Steinsaltz (an Orthodox Jew who was elected to be Beit Dein (Head) of the reestablished Sanhedrin). This story is all the better if youre framiliar with him ... He was giving a lecture to some of the top intellectuals / theologians in Judaism today. He did not enter on stage- he entered from the back with a bottle of whiskey and a bunch of cups. He handed them to the first person and told him to pass it down. He then proceeded to tell these cats that they were too tight and needed to loosen up a bit. He delivered his speech on studying the Scriptures.

In Jewish culture there is no taboo of Alcohol. Observant Jews welcome the Sabbath every week with a cup that literally runneth over. Steinsaltz has traveled the world over and he stated NEVER has he encountered a Jewish event where drinking turned into something rowdy. He stated there was always been joy with alcohol consumption.

The reason I think this conversation is kinda funny is that Christians usually accuse Jews of being legalistic. In this case- I think the tables have turned. Of course, no Christian will admit this.

To me- Alcohol is like any other pleasure. It has the potential to be enjoyed in great measure, but can be easily abused and should be indulged in with wisdom and moderation. Personally, in the last year I have developed a taste for wine. Eating a meal and enjoying a cup of wine with my family is like heaven on earth. There is a lot to celebrate in life and nothing does it like wine.

So yo- Messiah said the bread is my body and the non-fermented grape ju- I mean, the wine is blood.

pc.

king neb
01-02-2008, 11:32 PM
not eating will lower your chances of getting fat. :tongue:

I never touched alcohol until after being a christian for 10 years. Why? Because God's revelation truly set me free. Free from years of battling with so and so's opinion versus another's and free from one so-called scientist's findings versus another's. It was God Himself, through his word, who actually eased my mind/conscience and allows me this freedom with no condemnation. ( :

btate0121
01-03-2008, 08:56 AM
It also poses a danger to deteriate the spiritual quality of life.

ummmm... so do TV and video games according to recent studies fam. i guess i'll put the PSP down and switch to creflo from sponge bob eh? darn... i LOVE that show!

EXCELLENT point Dibri. There's a scipture where Jesus said and i paraphrase this quote "They will call the son of man a drunkard...". Why in the world would anyone call Jesus a drunkard ... if he didn't.... drink?!? er.. um...

exact quote as follows from

Matthew 11:18-19
18 or John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

what kind of "drinking" would cause people to say he was a .... "winebibber"?

*scratchety scratch*

Tony Stone
01-03-2008, 09:08 AM
ummmm... so do TV and video games according to recent studies fam. i guess i'll put the PSP down and switch to creflo from sponge bob eh? darn... i LOVE that show!

EXCELLENT point Dibri. There's a scipture where Jesus said and i paraphrase this quote "They will call the son of man a drunkard...". Why in the world would anyone call Jesus a drunkard ... if he didn't.... drink?!? er.. um...

exact quote as follows from

Matthew 11:18-19
18 or John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

what kind of "drinking" would cause people to say he was a .... "winebibber"?

*scratchety scratch*


...i don't have cable either...

Tony Stone
01-03-2008, 09:17 AM
not eating will lower your chances of getting fat. :tongue:

I never touched alcohol until after being a christian for 10 years. Why? Because God's revelation truly set me free. Free from years of battling with so and so's opinion versus another's and free from one so-called scientist's findings versus another's. It was God Himself, through his word, who actually eased my mind/conscience and allows me this freedom with no condemnation. ( :

Maybe for you drinking seemed attractive after being freed.

I've been freed from the legalistic mindset that watching any rated R movie would automatically be sin.. didn't make me want to go and watch rated R movies tho.

I guess the difference in me and others is that just because it's not wrong and i've been "freed by the revelation of truth" didn't make me go head first into it as if saying "aha! i will engage in all of these liberties that the legalstic church man forced on me!".

Drinking doesn't interest me. No matter how much "revelation" and "freedom" i get from studying, it doesn't make me want to do cartwheels into the nearest bar to exercise it. I think i'm more bothered by people who after having been "freed" try to drink to make a "point" that they can.

That's like going into a traditional church that doesn't go for hats and jeans, and wearing hats and jeans with the attitude of "aha, look at my liberty! what??!!! you want to try and test my liberties? look at all these scriptures that say i can do this! i recieved the revelation! deal with my hat!"

Thats pretty much how people act w/ liquor who have advanced so far along in their understanding of their liberties. Fewer and further inbetween I run into guys who say they occassionally drink, but don't gloat in their revelation or their understanding of their freedoms.

It's all good tho. I myself am still learning how not to rub my liberties and freedoms into people's face. The fundamental issue is the the same as that in marriage- is it about being "right" i.e. "i discovered these liberties so there!", or is it about walking in love i.e. "what edifies my brethren pleases God. Even if I know better, I'll be humble about it"

Flame on

btate0121
01-03-2008, 09:24 AM
TS



SHADDAP.... i'm kidding.. hilarious post man.

I actually don't drink outside my home unless i'm with other believers who do drink. like new years day.. had a good time with some friends! other than that.. it's me and wifey + a night cap = a good night of "sleep"

haleluyer.

Gloria
01-03-2008, 09:39 AM
haleluyer.

Okay. You stupid. LOL.

Tony Stone
01-03-2008, 09:40 AM
TS



SHADDAP.... i'm kidding.. hilarious post man.

I actually don't drink outside my home unless i'm with other believers who do drink. like new years day.. had a good time with some friends! other than that.. it's me and wifey + a night cap = a good night of "sleep"

haleluyer.

ha! Yea, which goes back to what I said earlier- I wouldn't encourage any christian who doesn't already drink to drink.

Likewise, I wouldn't go to someone's church where they wear casual clothing and say "yo man, you should wear u some fitteds and some baggy sweats and a tall t son!".

Even in reality, there is far less health and spiritual threat to encouraging someone to wear a different style of clothes than there is to tell them to drink.

I don't think that it's a sin to taste wine (i used to tho!). But I do know this: there are only a few Biblical liberties in the Bible that are coupled with as many warnings as the excess of liquor.

btate0121
01-03-2008, 10:29 AM
By the way Mr. T. Stone.. i'd like to extend a personal congrats on the wedding, tho a bit late.

I hope the reception and dinner were exquisite....even without wine... ugh. LOL.. i kid i kid i jest.

king neb
01-03-2008, 12:27 PM
Tony,

I don't flame it all. People ask, i answer them. I think you've mistaken a firm conviction on something as "flaming". You seem to be of the opinion that a person can't exist in a truly "moderate" mode.

For example, you said:

anyone who ever says they've never had a little bit too much to drink while exercising their Christian liberties to drink might not be completely honest w/ themselves
How do you know that?

When i drink, it is usually when im dining out with friends and i rarely have more than one beer. I've never reached a point of having a "bit too much".

Never.

Why do you find that hard to accept?

Tony Stone
01-03-2008, 05:22 PM
Tony,

I don't flame it all. People ask, i answer them. I think you've mistaken a firm conviction on something as "flaming". You seem to be of the opinion that a person can't exist in a truly "moderate" mode.

For example, you said:

anyone who ever says they've never had a little bit too much to drink while exercising their Christian liberties to drink might not be completely honest w/ themselves
How do you know that?

When i drink, it is usually when im dining out with friends and i rarely have more than one beer. I've never reached a point of having a "bit too much".

Never.

Why do you find that hard to accept?


First, I'd like to say that my "flame on" comment was just a joke, my bad for not letting that be more known.

But, no, I don't find it hard to accept! But I do think it's unlikely and a person is probably not being honest with themselves if they say they have always managed their liberties with perfection.

It's our Christian liberty to watch movies, tv, and play video games. but i'd never act as though I never watched TOO much tv or TOO many movies or played TOO many video games. I think you might just be in defense mode (not hatin) if you say that you have never engaged in liberties more than was really expedient ever at one point of your life. But maybe that's the one area that you have never excessively engaged in a liberty, if so, that's wassup!

seal
01-03-2008, 06:19 PM
Yo,

I drink wine with some of my dinners. Heck, Paul told Timothy to do so b/c of his stomach sickness and I've read that wine helps in Digestion. So I sip it up. I've never been any where near a drunk state since I've been a Christian. It's not that hard for me b/c back in my depraved dayz I'd get so Drunk and throw up my guts that once I became a believer I was firm on never getting to that point.

Beer is nasty and Neb you are a Nasty for drinking it... Yuck!!! LOL... J/K...

The only type of wine I drink is those that actually taste good, not that bitter and bland nasty mess.... I drink for taste not for drinking sake.

Grace and Peace,
seal

God's Elect
01-03-2008, 07:20 PM
Be not "drunk" <-- here is the sin ) with wine but....
ok so your next question will be... go ahead an say it.. how much.......

BlackCalvinist
01-04-2008, 05:29 PM
ha! Yea, which goes back to what I said earlier- I wouldn't encourage any christian who doesn't already drink to drink.

Likewise, I wouldn't go to someone's church where they wear casual clothing and say "yo man, you should wear u some fitteds and some baggy sweats and a tall t son!".

Even in reality, there is far less health and spiritual threat to encouraging someone to wear a different style of clothes than there is to tell them to drink.

I don't think that it's a sin to taste wine (i used to tho!). But I do know this: there are only a few Biblical liberties in the Bible that are coupled with as many warnings as the excess of liquor.

Except greed, gluttony, pride, laziness and every other sin being coupled with the 'good thing' that was given - money from work, food for eating, doing whatever you put your hand to do with all your might.....

You still haven't made a real case to bring this up as a 'recommended for believers who don't already drink' thing, TS.

gospelmessenjah
01-04-2008, 07:03 PM
nope

StreetSermonz
01-04-2008, 07:40 PM
Most of the time wine and strong drink are mentioned together in scripture, so it is very possible the wine in the Bible was fermented. I don't see any evidence it wasn't. As far as I'm concerned - I don't drink any alcohol, call it a matter of personal conviction. As for others, I'll leave that between them and the LORD as long as they are not "given to wine" a/k/a become drunk from its consumption.

Tony Stone
01-04-2008, 09:09 PM
Except greed, gluttony, pride, laziness and every other sin being coupled with the 'good thing' that was given - money from work, food for eating, doing whatever you put your hand to do with all your might.....

You still haven't made a real case to bring this up as a 'recommended for believers who don't already drink' thing, TS.

Well, that's just me. If some dude (who doesn't drink) asked me if he should go out and get a few drinks, I wouldn't recommend it.

Peep a good article by Piper that pretty much echos my sentiments on the topic. I know he's someone we both glean from and respect, and he has a way of articulating the position probably better than I'm doing here.. a few quotes


The least we can infer from all this is that while drinking is not always viewed as wrong, its dangers and harmfulness were such as to call forth numerous warnings, and in some cases (priestly service, Nazirite vow, Timothy's apostolic efforts) abstinence was seen as commendable. Drunkenness is always wrong.


The implication of this for our lives today is that we must look at the fundamental ethical principle of Scripture, take stock of our own personal and societal situation, and decide whether total abstinence or moderate use is the best way to go. For myself and my family the way I have decided to go is total abstinence. I also believe, in general, that this is the best way for all believers in America today to go.


I simply cannot see any reason why I should incorporate into my way of life a beverage which not only blurs the fine shades of moral restraints, but also could easily become habit-forming. I say with Paul, "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be enslaved by anything" (1 Corinthians 6:12). If someone laughs and says, "Why not prove you can hold your liquor. Why rule it out on the basis of a possible weakness?" my response is, "I've got nothing to prove.

Check it out in http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1981/313_Total_Abstinence_and_Church_Membership/

KFB
01-06-2008, 05:55 PM
Why do Pastors feel the need to infer that something is wrong when it's not? I was watching a well known preacher this morning brag about how he's never had a drink in his life, how Christ drinking wine was cultural and people in position of leadership shouldn't drink, yet, being as well learned as he is he couldn't outright call it sin. He then went on to say how the person who never drinks will never become a drunk, and to the person that drinks 'it's between them and God". Why/how would a spirit filled person become and alcoholic? Why must pastors and teachers try to scare there flock into not drinking when it's clearly not a sin and something our Lord and Saviour took part in?

Ras
01-06-2008, 07:55 PM
Why do Pastors feel the need to infer that something is wrong when it's not? I was watching a well known preacher this morning brag about how he's never had a drink in his life, how Christ drinking wine was cultural and people in position of leadership shouldn't drink, yet, being as well learned as he is he couldn't outright call it sin. He then went on to say how the person who never drinks will never become a drunk, and to the person that drinks 'it's between them and God". Why/how would a spirit filled person become and alcoholic? Why must pastors and teachers try to scare there flock into not drinking when it's clearly not a sin and something our Lord and Saviour took part in?

Because in our culture Christians don't drink. Or if they do, they're obviously worldly and professing but not possessing. So, it's basically a cultural belief. Not biblical. I heard in Russia or one of them countries that it's percieved as worldly to play basketball. I look at this drinking thing as people putting tradition over what the scriptures teach. Nothing new. Sorta like the Pharisees with their "laws".

Ras
01-06-2008, 08:06 PM
Why do Pastors feel the need to infer that something is wrong when it's not? I was watching a well known preacher this morning brag about how he's never had a drink in his life, how Christ drinking wine was cultural and people in position of leadership shouldn't drink, yet, being as well learned as he is he couldn't outright call it sin. He then went on to say how the person who never drinks will never become a drunk, and to the person that drinks 'it's between them and God". Why/how would a spirit filled person become and alcoholic? Why must pastors and teachers try to scare there flock into not drinking when it's clearly not a sin and something our Lord and Saviour took part in?

Another part of this (and it may have been covered earlier, I haven't read the whole thread) is we're judgemental on the issue. The scripture are clear. Don't judge a man on what he eats OR DRINKS. But pastors and christian judge people all the time as worldly if people drink. A clear violation of scripture.

KFB
01-06-2008, 08:42 PM
Another part of this (and it may have been covered earlier, I haven't read the whole thread) is we're judgemental on the issue. The scripture are clear. Don't judge a man on what he eats OR DRINKS. But pastors and christian judge people all the time as worldly if people drink. A clear violation of scripture.

Yeh bro, I realize I was long winded but I just get frustrated when respected Pastors and Theologians do there best to prop up traditions as truth. If that's there conviction, that's cool, leave it at.

BlackCalvinist
01-06-2008, 10:48 PM
Well, that's just me. If some dude (who doesn't drink) asked me if he should go out and get a few drinks, I wouldn't recommend it.

Yeah, I know. I read Piper's take on it a while ago and used to hold that same view. But Piper's a baptist, so he's going to argue that way. (you have to be reformed AND a paedobaptist to understand that statement, so don't take it as an insult - baptists and paedobaptists approach certain issues differently, so there's a different line of thinking with someone approaching it from a baptistic perspective versus a paedobaptistic perspective....and yes, it does cross over into other issues...hence, don't take it as an insult....)

The argument's still flawed, even from his lips.

"Well, it's not a sin, but I wouldn't recommend taking in a beverage that can cause you to engage in sin more easily"

That's the same argument used at the beginning of the Temperance Movement in the late 1800's and Prohibition Era:
http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/99906.qna/category/ch/page/questions/site/

But eh.

I think this one's a lot better balanced than Piper.
http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/99719.qna/category/pt/page/questions/site/

No, drinking alcohol is not a sin in and of itself. For example, wine is a covenant blessing (e.g. Gen. 27:28; Deut. 7:13; 11:14; 33:28), and was a blessed and acceptable offering to God (e.g. Num. 15:5,7,10). God approved of and encouraged its use (e.g. Deut. 14:26) -- arguably in large doses under certain conditions (Prov. 31:6-7). It is to be enjoyed in appropriate ways in appropriate settings, including its use to make "life merry" (Eccl. 10:19; cf. John 2:1-10).

Still, there are commandments against drunkenness and carousing (Eccl. 10:17; Rom. 13:13; Gal. 5:21; 1 Pet. 4:3). The heart of these commandments is that we avoid any drunkenness and loose living, whether caused by alcohol or any other substance. In short, there are ways to drink alcohol that are not sinful, as well as ways to drink alcohol that are sinful.
=================

Tony Stone
01-07-2008, 07:53 AM
Still, there are commandments against drunkenness and carousing (Eccl. 10:17; Rom. 13:13; Gal. 5:21; 1 Pet. 4:3). The heart of these commandments is that we avoid any drunkenness and loose living, whether caused by alcohol or any other substance. In short, there are ways to drink alcohol that are not sinful, as well as ways to drink alcohol that are sinful


Hey bro!

I'm curious your take on other substances like weed, lsd, meth, etc. Since the idea of those Scriptures is to avoild any overdose caused by alcohol or any other substance, and the result is that "it's ok to use a small amount of these substances, just not enough to alter you"....

then you're essentially saying that it's ok to use any drug so long as it doesn't effect you the same way drunkeness does. With that line of thought, its ok for someone to smoke weed so long as they don't get high. It's ok to use crack so long as they don't turn into a crack head. Is it because wine is a "covenent blessing" that stands it out against a plant crop like marijauna or opium?

Who's to tell someone that a crop that God placed on earth is wrong to use (or rather, misuse?). What constitutes the misuse of weed or opium? Your argument allows for someone to use any drug in moderation, so long as they don't get high. I agree w/ any argument that calls for avoidance of anything that's mind or judgement impairing.

The_Expositor
01-07-2008, 08:41 AM
Hey T Stone,

I'm not on any particular side of this one. But, I will say this. Weed, LSD, opium, etc., is all illegal to use. So, right off the top, you have a legal issue, and we are supposed to submit to the laws. Alcohol consumption is not illegal, but it is illegal to be drunk and disorderly and also drive while drunk.

Tony Stone
01-07-2008, 09:52 AM
Hey T Stone,

I'm not on any particular side of this one. But, I will say this. Weed, LSD, opium, etc., is all illegal to use. So, right off the top, you have a legal issue, and we are supposed to submit to the laws. Alcohol consumption is not illegal, but it is illegal to be drunk and disorderly and also drive while drunk.

Weed is not illegal everywhere, and in fact "medical marijuana" is lega in the US. It is legal to use weed in Bangledesh. So what do we say to bangledeshian Christians. "It's ok to smoke a little bit, just not enough to make you high. God made it and it's cool. I won't say don't smoke at all, because it's your liberty. Just be careful not to smoke too much". A wise man would say "stay away from it, the danger of addiction far outweigh the momentary joy".

Netherlands, it is legal to purchase and purchase in small amounts to people 18 and over (like our cigarettes). How about netherlandian Christians. I suppose it would be legalistic to say "for the purpose of our witness, its best that we do not even purchase it. For the risk of addiction, it's best that you stay away from it".

In Portugal, you may use up to 2.5 grahms per day limit. You can have in your posession up to 7.5 grahms at any 1 point and time. How about our Portugese Christians? "Make sure if you smoke, keep it under 2.5 grahms. God made this beautiful plant for us to enjoy, just make sure you don't get high." Again, I'd say the wiser man would say "avoid it totally, even if it's legal and if it's a plant that God made. It's much better for our witness and avoiding it is avoiding your chances of becomming addicted"

Legalities of certain substances varries when we start taking it outside of the American sphere, I agree. So what about those countries that don't look down on marijuana- cultural? Dig right in and smoke it? We'd be up in arms if a Christian from any of those previous mentioned country was a reformed teacher from the pulpit encouraging the use of weed but only saying that it shouldn't be used because of the laws of the land.

I think wine is great! White wine is great for removing red wine and grape juice stains. Red wine is a great dye for fabrics. Wine is even good for cleaning grease spots off concrete. Drinking it just isn't compelling to me (maybe to other Christians, but just not me). It's good for cooking too (to add flavor).

The_Expositor
01-07-2008, 10:12 AM
Hey Bro...

Again, I'm not on any particular side of the debate. I was just mentioning the illegalities of it as it pertains to American law. I do think this is a matter of Christian liberty and therefore no dogmatic stance can really be taken against drinking wine itself, but only as it pertains to drunkenness.

I think being of a sober mind is important. I also believe that we should not seek to go beyond that which is written in God's word. The Bible doesn't condemn drinking wine altogether, it condemns being drunk, wherein is excess. Because of that, it may be wise for "some" people to not drink at all, if they cannot handle their liberty. Our liberty in Christ should never be used for an occasion to sin.

However, for some others, drinking in excess is not an issue, because they have learned how to be temperate in all things. After all, temperance is a fruit of the Spirit and should be present in the life of a believer. Temperance in the Greek is "sophrosyne." The root word here, "soph", is derived from the Greek word for wisdom. A temperate drinker of wine is a wise one, in my opinion. In Galatians 5, the Greek word "engkrateria" is used for temperance, which means "self-control" or "discipline." A person who is demonstrating this fruit of the Spirit will not get drunk.

I understand your concern, bro. I really do. Because I drank a lot before I was saved, I choose not to drink often at all. I never drink "strong drink" as the Bible calls it, but I will have an occasional glass of wine (pinot griggio) with a nice meal. That's probably only about 3-4 times a year. I think that may qualify as temperance. I know my limitations and I don't go beyond them. Now, will I drink in the presence of unbelievers? It depends. I'm sure I have every time I've ordered a glass of wine in public.

Tony Stone
01-07-2008, 10:27 AM
Hey Bro...

Again, I'm not on any particular side of the debate. I was just mentioning the illegalities of it as it pertains to American law. I do think this is a matter of Christian liberty and therefore no dogmatic stance can really be taken against drinking wine itself, but only as it pertains to drunkenness.

I think being of a sober mind is important. I also believe that we should not seek to go beyond that which is written in God's word. The Bible doesn't condemn drinking wine altogether, it condemns being drunk, wherein is excess. Because of that, it may be wise for "some" people to not drink at all, if they cannot handle their liberty. Our liberty in Christ should never be used for an occasion to sin.

However, for some others, drinking in excess is not an issue, because they have learned how to be temperate in all things. After all, temperance is a fruit of the Spirit and should be present in the life of a believer. Temperance in the Greek is "sophrosyne." The root word here, "soph", is derived from the Greek word for wisdom. A temperate drinker of wine is a wise one, in my opinion. In Galatians 5, the Greek word "engkrateria" is used for temperance, which means "self-control" or "discipline." A person who is demonstrating this fruit of the Spirit will not get drunk.

I understand your concern, bro. I really do. Because I drank a lot before I was saved, I choose not to drink often at all. I never drink "strong drink" as the Bible calls it, but I will have an occasional glass of wine (pinot griggio) with a nice meal. That's probably only about 3-4 times a year. I think that may qualify as temperance. I know my limitations and I don't go beyond them. Now, will I drink in the presence of unbelievers? It depends. I'm sure I have every time I've ordered a glass of wine in public.

Thanks for your feedback bro. I don't think that sipping wine is sin and has never been my argument. My argument has been that I would not encourage anyone to take it up who hasn't already. My argument has been that I would personally avoid it and encourage people around me not to even bother with it. I wouldn't show up in your house and start smashing your wine bottles, tho.

Also, you said that you don't go w/ strong drink, just wine. What is "strong drink" to you? Is beer=wine or is beer=strong drink? What % of the beverage must be alcoholic to be considered strong drink?

Also what about weed in the countries that I mentioned? What would you preach to Christians there?

Japan
01-07-2008, 10:34 AM
Alcohol is something to be avoided. I don't drink and really dont feel the need to. If i do get anything is low content (.05%) which is really no strong at all. Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.

http://frewines.com/

king neb
01-07-2008, 12:44 PM
No, drinking alcohol is not a sin in and of itself. For example, wine is a covenant blessing (e.g. Gen. 27:28; Deut. 7:13; 11:14; 33:28), and was a blessed and acceptable offering to God (e.g. Num. 15:5,7,10). God approved of and encouraged its use (e.g. Deut. 14:26) -- arguably in large doses under certain conditions (Prov. 31:6-7). It is to be enjoyed in appropriate ways in appropriate settings, including its use to make "life merry" (Eccl. 10:19; cf. John 2:1-10).

Still, there are commandments against drunkenness and carousing (Eccl. 10:17; Rom. 13:13; Gal. 5:21; 1 Pet. 4:3). The heart of these commandments is that we avoid any drunkenness and loose living, whether caused by alcohol or any other substance. In short, there are ways to drink alcohol that are not sinful, as well as ways to drink alcohol that are sinful.

Good stuff there.

Tony said:
then you're essentially saying that it's ok to use any drug so long as it doesn't effect you the same way drunkeness does. With that line of thought, its ok for someone to smoke weed so long as they don't get high.
Let's just say, for sake of argument, that your parallel is correct. That still does not refute the argument. It merely begs the question we had in the first place.

You agree that drinking alcohol is ok in some circumstances. Question: Does not alcohol alter the brain*?
* there is a distinction between the brain and the mind, but i won't get into that.
I would argue, based on Scripture and without even having to experiment for myself, that apparently alcohol alters things; yet this is not forbidden by God per se.

I think bringing up specific items like cocaine or marijuana is mute at this point.

The fundamental question here is: does God allow for the use of a substance that can alter your mind/brain?

And again, i'd have to say yes. To a certain degree, He allows it.

----

Tony, have you ever taken an aspirin? Is that ok?

When you have children, does your wife plan on having an epidural or will you go completely natural? Morphine, which is the active agent in opium, is used for a number of situations in hospitals, including epidurals.

How far are you willing to take your argument?

If you're willing to get onto literally thousands of Christian women for using morphine during a birth and can justify your complaint from Scripture, then i guess that would be ok. But where is the justification for it? And if there isn't any, how can your parallel scenario above be used as an argument?

Tony Stone
01-07-2008, 01:26 PM
Neb,

The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.

Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?

You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.

If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.

Japan
01-07-2008, 01:31 PM
Neb,

The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.

Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?

You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.

If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.

I agree Stone

Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.

king neb
01-07-2008, 02:31 PM
The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.
And? So that makes it right? Perhaps God doesn't want you to stop the pain. He is the one that created the whole thing to start with, did he not?

Some have argued that we shouldn't use alcohol as a crutch. We should face up to the circumstances upon which God has sovereignly brought us. Some people take that a step further and argue for natural births.

Why do you think it is ok in that situation but not for recreational purposes? Seems arbitrary to me.
Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?
No, but it does tend to relax me and sometimes relieves headaches. So do cigars.

Is that a problem? If so, why?
You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.
Dire need in what sense? It certainly is no life or death situation. And again, even if it were, some naturalists would argue that to die would merely be accepting the natural course of God's sovereign decrees.

Why do you qualify it as dire need? Again, seems arbitrary.
If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.[/quote]
Ok. Back to the question. Do you believe recreational drinking is wrong? If so, why. If not, and you make a parallel to marijuana, then why would you argue that marijuana is wrong?

Cowboy
01-07-2008, 02:40 PM
Neb,

The argument of morphine during child-birth is an issue of reasonable necessity to stop unimaginable pain.

Is your liquor stopping unimaginable pain?

You're comparing recreational enjoyment vs dire need- apples and oranges. If we were talking about medicated purposes of alcohol use (stomach illnesses, i.e. Timothy) vs medicated purposes of opium use (morphine use in hospitals), then we can talk.

If you want a more fitting comparisson, try recreational drinking vs recreational weed usage.

Just as you comparing crack to alcohol is also apples and oranges. Weed is illegal in the U.S. except in medical situations....which would make it just like the morphine or epidural that Neb mentioned. So, according to your argument itself, weed would be OK in it's legal form here in the states, because it's dealing with pain, just as morphine does. You're not presenting an overly strong case against this. We all understand why some people don't drink, and that's not a problem.

Also, Japan, there are many wines and beers that people drink for the taste. Konig Ludwig is a beer that does not taste like most others, and is quite enjoyable(especially with German food). There are many wines/champagnes that have enjoyable tastes too. So, just because one person doesn't like the taste doesn't mean that others can't. That's like saying that people don't eat vegetables for the taste.

Tony Stone
01-07-2008, 03:23 PM
Just as you comparing crack to alcohol is also apples and oranges. Weed is illegal in the U.S. except in medical situations....which would make it just like the morphine or epidural that Neb mentioned. So, according to your argument itself, weed would be OK in it's legal form here in the states, because it's dealing with pain, just as morphine does. You're not presenting an overly strong case against this. We all understand why some people don't drink, and that's not a problem.

Also, Japan, there are many wines and beers that people drink for the taste. Konig Ludwig is a beer that does not taste like most others, and is quite enjoyable(especially with German food). There are many wines/champagnes that have enjoyable tastes too. So, just because one person doesn't like the taste doesn't mean that others can't. That's like saying that people don't eat vegetables for the taste.

See my thread dealing w/ weed outside the US. Would you tell a Christian from the Netherlands to light one up? It's not apples and oranges (maybe from an American centric view point). In a handful of countries weed and liquor are legal. I'd like to see your view articulated within those contexts.Mine remains the same everywhere. Avoid things that impair your judgement.

Tony Stone
01-07-2008, 03:35 PM
Some have argued that we shouldn't use alcohol as a crutch. We should face up to the circumstances upon which God has sovereignly brought us. Some people take that a step further and argue for natural births.

Why do you think it is ok in that situation but not for recreational purposes? Seems arbitrary to me.

The Bible doesn't say it's wrong to ease pain in the medical sense. Paul's prescription to Timothy concnerning liquor for his stomach was pretty much in that same line. That's why i think it's ok for that situation. I think it's ok for a police to discharge a firearm in the situation where life is at risk. Doesn't mean i think it's ok for him to recreationally shoot someone. Similar result, different motive.


No, but it does tend to relax me and sometimes relieves headaches. So do cigars.

I'm sure the same argument could be made for a man paying for a prostitute, it wouldn't make it right. Make up your mind (I don't mean that rudly fam!), you're either doing it for recreation, or because you have a medical condition where liquor is the prescribed remedy.


Dire need in what sense? It certainly is no life or death situation. And again, even if it were, some naturalists would argue that to die would merely be accepting the natural course of God's sovereign decrees

Some naturalists? Some drunks would argue that to drink is merely obeying God's command for liquor consumption. I'm not inferring that you are a drunk, so don't infer that I'm a naturalist.

Pain relieving medication is not any stranger to the Bible (neither is wine). In fact, wine could have been used in cases of extreme pain, to numb it. Similar side effects, different motive.


Ok. Back to the question. Do you believe recreational drinking is wrong? If so, why. If not, and you make a parallel to marijuana, then why would you argue that marijuana is wrong?

I'll let you re-read all of my posts where I made that answer clear.

Now as far as why I would argue that weed is wrong:

1) It's a judgement altering drug
2) it's highly addictive and distractive
3) it's a great way to bomb your witness

Do you like the taste of wine or the buzz that you get? just curious

ZestD
01-07-2008, 04:45 PM
I agree Stone

Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.

Ignorant and broad blanket statement there.

I enjoy the taste of a good beer...NOT some cheap American light beer that doesn't hardly have a taste. Wine, well I only like a couple, but that's just b/c I don't particularly like wine.

ZestD
01-07-2008, 04:47 PM
The Bible doesn't say it's wrong to ease pain in the medical sense. Paul's prescription to Timothy concnerning liquor for his stomach was pretty much in that same line. That's why i think it's ok for that situation. I think it's ok for a police to discharge a firearm in the situation where life is at risk. Doesn't mean i think it's ok for him to recreationally shoot someone. Similar result, different motive.



I'm sure the same argument could be made for a man paying for a prostitute, it wouldn't make it right. Make up your mind (I don't mean that rudly fam!), you're either doing it for recreation, or because you have a medical condition where liquor is the prescribed remedy.



Some naturalists? Some drunks would argue that to drink is merely obeying God's command for liquor consumption. I'm not inferring that you are a drunk, so don't infer that I'm a naturalist.

Pain relieving medication is not any stranger to the Bible (neither is wine). In fact, wine could have been used in cases of extreme pain, to numb it. Similar side effects, different motive.



I'll let you re-read all of my posts where I made that answer clear.

Now as far as why I would argue that weed is wrong:

1) It's a judgement altering drug
2) it's highly addictive and distractive
3) it's a great way to bomb your witness

Do you like the taste of wine or the buzz that you get? just curious

Seems like a presumptuous statement also. I guess we all have to submit to the teachings of TS?

Lynaz24
01-07-2008, 04:49 PM
Alcohol is something to be avoided. I don't drink and really dont feel the need to. If i do get anything is low content (.05%) which is really no strong at all. Log on to http://frewines.com/ it provides a list of non-Alcoholic wines. People don't drink wine or beer for the taste. The taste in the drinks can be duplicated with a non-Alcoholic drink.

http://frewines.com/

There are people who drink Beer and Wine for the taste...A Bud Light, Coors does not taste the Same as Guiness or Samuel Adams..

Just like Chardonnay or Merlot does not taste the same as Kendall Jackson or Blush...

I'm confused by you saying you don't drink, but then saying "If I DO"....lol

Just stick to the scripts man..

seal
01-07-2008, 04:52 PM
Yo,

What in the world happened in this thread...:mask:

It went from not influencing a Christian brother/sister to drink as a liberty in Christ to drinking wine/beer being wrong period. That's a major twist.

Okay, how does what was in the cup at the Last Supper get compared with weed, meth, and LSD? These things are on two different axioms and not all things from the ground are to be eatened or put in the body are they? Do we eat poison ivy? Do we poisonious mushrooms? So not everything from the ground is good to put in our bodies, just like weed, cocaine, and etc isn't.

One is searching for a universal argument yet not asserting the universal truths of the scripture. Our body is a temple of the most high God and wine nor strong drink were prohibited to be brought in the temple of God.

Grace and Peace,
seal

king neb
01-07-2008, 04:58 PM
Tony,

Make up your mind (I don't mean that rudly fam!), you're either doing it for recreation, or because you have a medical condition where liquor is the prescribed remedy.
What do you mean? I haven't been flip-flopping here. I've used these things in both cases. Why does it have to be either/or?

I've used alcohol/cigars for recreational purposes...i've used them for medicinal purposes.

When i'm dining out with friends, i will typically have a beer with them. And i usually drink Amber Bock because i like the taste. (to answer one of your questions)

When my wife and I have a date, we will sometimes share a fruity margarita because we like the fruity taste.

Purely recreational. Is that wrong? You seem to say, "no", but then ask things in such a way as to possibly imply that there's a problem.

Same with cigars. I love the smell. Especially from my tobacco pipe. I do it recreationally, again, typically with friends when dining out or just hanging out at the crib.

Medicinally, i have used alcohol and/or cigars to relax me and help me go to sleep at times. I don't know why it does that to me...doesn't to some...but one beer will usually make me a little sleepy.

Cigars relax me. Ever since moving to Florida, i haven't been as stressed as i have been in the past (with past jobs), but when i feel a little restless and can't sleep at times, i may light one up to help relax me. Usually does the trick.

Is this wrong?

-----------------

But no, i haven't been wishy washy here. I've done it for both reasons. And in the process of doing so: (to borrow some language from your list)

1. Though it does alter in the sense that it relaxes, it has never impaired my judgment. NEVER.

2. It isn't addictive nor distractive. I have NEVER had an uncontrollable urge to want to drink or smoke a cigar.

3. It has never bombed my witness. In fact, as i have shared before, it has opened up wonderful opportunities with non-believing family members about deeper questions like, what does it mean to be a christian, what is morality, what is the source of knowledge, does science convey truth.

I could never approach my atheist mother-in-law about Christianity until one thanksgiving day i handed her a Corona. And she did not understand it as a compromise once i actually sat down with her and demonstrated what the Bible had to say about it.

Nor has it bombed me with other Christians. In fact, the church i attended down here is a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. Huge Piper fanatics. They also had a cigar-themed birthday party for one of their deacons in training, with beer.

I have found this to be very common in this area. One reason why the whole "american culture" argument doesn't fly with me. Depends on where you're at.

Pain relieving medication is not any stranger to the Bible (neither is wine). In fact, wine could have been used in cases of extreme pain, to numb it. Similar side effects, different motive.
Ok. So you advocate wine, but only in the sense of medication? I'm asking this because you're confusing me by continually reminding me of something i affirm.

Back to the weed thing. You said,

"I'm curious your take on other substances like weed, lsd, meth, etc. Since the idea of those Scriptures is to avoild any overdose caused by alcohol or any other substance, and the result is that "it's ok to use a small amount of these substances, just not enough to alter you"....

then you're essentially saying that it's ok to use any drug so long as it doesn't effect you the same way drunkeness does. With that line of thought, its ok for someone to smoke weed so long as they don't get high. It's ok to use crack so long as they don't turn into a crack head. Is it because wine is a "covenent blessing" that stands it out against a plant crop like marijauna or opium?"
Are you or are you not trying to equate the two? I understood you as equating the two...it seems Cowboy did too.

If you are equating the two and you argue that marijuana use is wrong, then why wouldn't you argue that drinking alcohol is wrong?

Or do you...as long as it's for medication...:spinny: lol.

BondServant
01-07-2008, 05:24 PM
People don't drink wine or beer for the taste.

You researched this?

Gloria
01-07-2008, 05:41 PM
You researched this?

LOL...Bond checking in. I was wondering where you were on this one. EVEN THOUGH you pretty much stated your case when this thread was first created back in '92. Talk about "bumping" a thread...lol