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savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 10:17 AM
Hey peeps! Chris brought this up in another thread, and i was thinking about it and i wanted to have a fruitful discussion about it...

Here is my take:

On the one hand, i can see how someone might classify this as "self defense", in terms of it being an act to save your own life. However, since when is it ok to murder (yes, i said MURDER) an INNOCENT human life to save your own? its not the same as a person standing there trying to rob you with a gun pointed at you, where you kill them first or something, this is an INNOCENT baby who has not made the choice to be implanted in your womb that you are killing.

Second, would we classify choosing the baby over our own life as "suicide," and therefore a sin as well? this was a good question to me, and i had to ponder it for a while... but after talking it out last night, this is what occurred to me: we dont consider what Jesus did to be suicide, yet HE came in the form of a servant, and LAYED DOWN HIS LIFE for US!

1 John 3
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

John 15
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Romans 5
3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Christ in Our Place


6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


So, in conclusion, my take would be that we never can justify a sin, no matter what the outcome of not committing the sin would be (in this case, the death of the mother). On top of that, we have been called to lay down our LIVES (literally) for others, in the same way that Christ did... and this would be the epitome of that.

What do you think?

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 10:54 AM
However, since when is it ok to murder (yes, i said MURDER) an INNOCENT human life to save your own? its not the same as a person standing there trying to rob you with a gun pointed at you, where you kill them first or something, this is an INNOCENT baby who has not made the choice to be implanted in your womb that you are killing.Ummm...since when are babies innocent? :)


So, in conclusion, my take would be that we never can justify a sin, no matter what the outcome of not committing the sin would be (in this case, the death of the mother). On top of that, we have been called to lay down our LIVES (literally) for others, in the same way that Christ did... and this would be the epitome of that.
Where are we "called" to lay down our life for our friends? Are we to take this command literally? And, if suicide by definition is taking ones life intentionally-how is this not wrong? I mean...if I kill another man because he broke into my house, tied up my wife, stabbed my son, and has my infant baby by the throat-have I not STILL killed? If I steal because I was in Katrina and we have not had ANYTHING to eat in 3 days and we are on the verge of starvation & I break into a store to eat, isn't that still wrong? I say wrong is still wrong, and by killing the baby to save my wives life THAT is wrong, but by KILLING MYSELF, that is still suicide and is still wrong.

...I mean...right? :confused:

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 10:56 AM
oh and btw, I think there's a difference in what Jesus did than what any other man can do. Jesus, in a sense, DID commit suicide (laid his life down) or, if you will, He went on a Kamikaze mission---but if that's the case, then how could we ever condemn someone who committed suicide?

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:00 AM
Hey Chris! thanks for responding!


Ummm...since when are babies innocent? :)

I meant innocent in terms of them not having done anything in their capacity to threaten your life... hope that clarifies that!



Where are we "called" to lay down our life for our friends? Are we to take this command literally?

1 John 3
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

John 15
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

I believe we should take this literally, why would we not? if you dont think so just let me know why you think that!

I say we should because we are supposed to follow after Christ, in His footsteps... we are His if we do as He has commanded! And we will do as He does... We are called to live "self sacrificially", yet in the ultimate self sacrifice, literally dying so another could live, we are supposed to take that command "figuratively?"


And, if suicide by definition is taking ones life intentionally-how is this not wrong? I mean...if I kill another man because he broke into my house, tied up my wife, stabbed my son, and has my infant baby by the throat-have I not STILL killed? If I steal because I was in Katrina and we have not had ANYTHING to eat in 3 days and we are on the verge of starvation & I break into a store to eat, isn't that still wrong? I say wrong is still wrong, and by killing the baby to save my wives life THAT is wrong, but by KILLING MYSELF, that is still suicide and is still wrong.

...I mean...right? :confused:

Was Christs sacrifice a suicide? He died so that we could live... and we would be following in His footsteps if we do the same (dying so that the baby could live.) On top of that, who is in control of saving both mother and child? yet who are we to kill, when God can step in and save both, if it is His will?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:02 AM
Wouldn't the baby be dying for the mother too though?

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:02 AM
oh and btw, I think there's a difference in what Jesus did than what any other man can do. Jesus, in a sense, DID commit suicide (laid his life down) or, if you will, He went on a Kamikaze mission---but if that's the case, then how could we ever condemn someone who committed suicide?

the difference is that He had NO SELFISH MOTIVE in His death... it was the ultimate act of self sacrifice... He died so that we could live... if we commit suicide, we are committing it for selfish reasons (i.e. we are "tired" of living, we "cant take it anymore" "there is too much pain"... aka, we are not trusting in the Lord, and knowing that ALL things work for the good of those called according to His purposes).

If we lay down our life for a baby to live, we are imitating Christ, dying that the baby can live. it is not selfish at all, but rather self sacrificing.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:03 AM
the difference is that He had NO SELFISH MOTIVE in His death... it was the ultimate act of self sacrifice... He died so that we could live... if we commit suicide, we are committing it for selfish reasons (i.e. we are "tired" of living, we "cant take it anymore" "there is too much pain"... aka, we are not trusting in the Lord, and knowing that ALL things work for the good of those called according to His purposes).

If we lay down our life for a baby to live, we are imitating Christ, dying that the baby can live. it is not selfish at all, but rather self sacrificing.

What about those people in 9/11?

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:03 AM
Wouldn't the baby be dying for the mother too though?

would the baby be making that decision, or would you be making that decision for it? and wouldnt that be selfish on your part? you die so that i could live, and i'm going to make that decision for you, since you have no power and no ability to make any decisions?

that would be opposite of what Christ commanded, dont ya think?

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:04 AM
What about those people in 9/11?

im confused, could you elaborate your question? which people? the suicide bombers? or the people who were killed?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:06 AM
would the baby be making that decision, or would you be making that decision for it? and wouldnt that be selfish on your part? you die so that i could live, and i'm going to make that decision for you, since you have no power and no ability to make any decisions?

that would be opposite of what Christ commanded, dont ya think?

I don't see that as a commandment.

But anyway...Yes, I would have to make that decision. I asked my wife this morning, what she would want to do. She didn't know. I would choose my wife. If I choose my baby, then I had to sacrifice her. Either way, I have to choose, who to save. I would save my wife.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:06 AM
im confused, could you elaborate your question? which people? the suicide bombers? or the people who were killed?

I think you know, but I was referring to the people that jumped to their death. Was that selfish?

$ea$hell$
03-16-2007, 11:11 AM
Good Brother CHRISTion,

Greater love hath no man that this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Good brother, dying to save another life is not suicide.

Killing a legally innocent life to save your own life is murder. Killing an attacked is to save your own life is not murder.

These statements I make are not based on my own reasoning, for what is right in my own eyes means nothing.

These statements I make are based on every covenant law given by God, and on many civil laws given by men.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:13 AM
I think you know, but I was referring to the people that jumped to their death. Was that selfish?

no i really didnt, why would i ask you to elaborate if i knew what u were talking about? :confused:

yes, that would be selfish, or at least not a selfless act of dying so that one could live. they didnt want to feel the pain of burning to death, so they jumped to their death instead. or possibly they thought they might survive the fall, who knows. but in either case, that is completely irrelivant.

you do not see a commandment that we are His children we would do as He did? besides, you are looking at it from the point of view of chosing either your wife or your child, when a woman looks at it, it is chosing herself or her child.

chosing yourself over your child is selfish. we are called to a life of self sacrificing love, yet when the ultimate sacrifice of ACTUALLY DYING so that another could live comes up, we want to live instead? we want to kill the baby instead of trust God that He could save the both if He so desired? we want to trust in our own understanding and our own ways, and committ MURDER instead of trusting in the Lord, that He will do according to what will give Him the most glory?

also, it is probably a good thing to note that it is rarely, if EVER, a 100% chance that the mother will die, its usually just a percentage, but not 100%.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:19 AM
no i really didnt, why would i ask you to elaborate if i knew what u were talking about? :confused:

yes, that would be selfish, or at least not a selfless act of dying so that one could live. they didnt want to feel the pain of burning to death, so they jumped to their death instead. or possibly they thought they might survive the fall, who knows. but in either case, that is completely irrelivant.

you do not see a commandment that we are His children we would do as He did? besides, you are looking at it from the point of view of chosing either your wife or your child, when a woman looks at it, it is chosing herself or her child.

chosing yourself over your child is selfish. we are called to a life of self sacrificing love, yet when the ultimate sacrifice of ACTUALLY DYING so that another could live comes up, we want to live instead? we want to kill the baby instead of trust God that He could save the both if He so desired? we want to trust in our own understanding and our own ways, and committ MURDER instead of trusting in the Lord, that He will do according to what will give Him the most glory?

also, it is probably a good thing to note that it is rarely, if EVER, a 100% chance that the mother will die, its usually just a percentage, but not 100%.


But that's not the option, whether or not I trust in the Lord. Of course I trust in the Lord. But that doesn't mean I don't have to make the call. The option is, if I knew my wife would die if she delivered this baby.

I don't care if you or whoever would think that I made a selfish call. I would choose my wife, 10 out of 10. You say it was selfish, but does that make it so? Not to me. The doctor wouldn't ask my wife, he'd ask me. I'd have to live with it, but I would trust that God would take my child(being a covenant child and all) into His arms.

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 11:20 AM
the difference is that He had NO SELFISH MOTIVE in His death... it was the ultimate act of self sacrifice... He died so that we could live... if we commit suicide, we are committing it for selfish reasons (i.e. we are "tired" of living, we "cant take it anymore" "there is too much pain"... aka, we are not trusting in the Lord, and knowing that ALL things work for the good of those called according to His purposes).

If we lay down our life for a baby to live, we are imitating Christ, dying that the baby can live. it is not selfish at all, but rather self sacrificing.

Are you saying ALL suicide has "selfish motives" behind it??? And where is that in the definition?? Those in 9-1-1 dove to their death instead of "choosing" to face the flames. WOW.

Anyway, I don't think this issue is as cut and dry as you're making it.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:21 AM
But that's not the option, whether or not I trust in the Lord. Of course I trust in the Lord. But that doesn't mean I don't have to make the call. The option is, if I knew my wife would die if she delivered this baby.

I don't care if you or whoever would think that I made a selfish call. I would choose my wife, 10 out of 10. You say it was selfish, but does that make it so? Not to me. The doctor wouldn't ask my wife, he'd ask me. I'd have to live with it, but I would trust that God would take my child(being a covenant child and all) into His arms.

is it selfish to choose your life over anothers life? are we not called to follow after Christ? is not your screen name BONDSERVANT? meaning slave to Christ? would you only follow Him up until the point of self sacrifice for the sake of another, and then draw the line there? would you committ murder because you are not trusting in the Lords soverignty?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:22 AM
Anyway, I don't think this issue is as cut and dry as you're making it.

I agree.

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 11:23 AM
I believe we should take this literally, why would we not? if you dont think so just let me know why you think that!

I say we should because we are supposed to follow after Christ, in His footsteps... we are His if we do as He has commanded! And we will do as He does... We are called to live "self sacrificially", yet in the ultimate self sacrifice, literally dying so another could live, we are supposed to take that command "figuratively?"It what ways (or life situations) would you say that we are to live this out LITERALLY? In the one we're talking about now? Killing yourself (suicide) so your baby can live? Are you saying killing yourself in this instance is NOT suicide??

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:24 AM
is it selfish to choose your life over anothers life? are we not called to follow after Christ? is not your screen name BONDSERVANT? meaning slave to Christ? would you only follow Him up until the point of self sacrifice for the sake of another, and then draw the line there? would you committ murder because you are not trusting in the Lords soverignty?

I'm not choosing MY life over anothers. I'm a man remember, I don't give birth. I would choose my wife over my child in this case. I guess that would make me an apostate to you since I'm no longer being a slave to Christ.

If I had to murder, I would murder.

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:24 AM
Bondy........ as saved said, there is never ever ever conclusive knowledge that she WILL DIE.

The doctor might think it probable, but it is never conclusive.

It is also never conclusive that the baby will survive the birth, neither is it conclusive that the mother will survive an abortion.

only one thing is conclusive, a baby will not survive an abortion.

All those add up to being "murder for a better chance of survival"... nothing more.

is that just?

would you starve your child to feed your wife if you were forced to choose?

would you murder others to take there food to feed your family?

once we take the role of chosing who lives and dies, were do we draw the line?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:27 AM
Bondy........ as saved said, there is never ever ever conclusive knowledge that she WILL DIE.

The doctor might think it probable, but it is never conclusive.

It is also never conclusive that the baby will survive the birth, neither is it conclusive that the mother will survive an abortion.

All those add up to being "murder for a better chance of survival"... nothing more.

would you starve your child to feed your wife if you were forced to choose?

Here's why your second HYPOTHETICAL example doesn't work.

There is something I CAN do about feeding my child. If I had no option, then I would feed my both my wife and child, and I would suffer. But there are options as to where we could all eat.

We're dealing with hypotheticals. If I KNEW my wife would die.

lisajames96
03-16-2007, 11:31 AM
oh and btw, I think there's a difference in what Jesus did than what any other man can do. Jesus, in a sense, DID commit suicide (laid his life down) or, if you will, He went on a Kamikaze mission---but if that's the case, then how could we ever condemn someone who committed suicide?
This is a good discussion! I will come back to read the rest during lunch. Keep it going guys:D ...
I did have a question though. Could we seperate the Father and the Son in this instance instead and say it was the Father that actually killed the Son. The Son was just obedient in allowing the death(not fight against the Father's will)? Not suicide? Is it suicide if He refused to come down off the cross?...just a thought.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:31 AM
Are you saying ALL suicide has "selfish motives" behind it??? And where is that in the definition?? Those in 9-1-1 dove to their death instead of "choosing" to face the flames. WOW.

Anyway, I don't think this issue is as cut and dry as you're making it.

i dont know what their motive is, but what i do know is that it was not for the sake of another, that is totally different. their motive is self preservation. their motive was fear of pain, or whatever their motive is, its not comparable to dying to save another's life.

can you give an example of where suicide is not motivated in one way or another to save self, whether to save self from pain (physical) or from pain (emotional)?

I'm not claiming im the authority, but from my limited knowledge, i just dont see an example of that.


It what ways (or life situations) would you say that we are to live this out LITERALLY? In the one we're talking about now? Killing yourself (suicide) so your baby can live? Are you saying killing yourself in this instance is NOT suicide??

are you actually killing yourself? or only choosing to trust God, and NOT committ murder, but to lay down your life, if it needs to, to save another? i am saying this is not suicide in the same way that Christ's death was not suicide

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:35 AM
Here's why your second HYPOTHETICAL example doesn't work.

There is something I CAN do about feeding my child. If I had no option, then I would feed my both my wife and child, and I would suffer. But there are options as to where we could all eat.

We're dealing with hypotheticals. If I KNEW my wife would die.

we're all dealing with hypotheticals!!!!

IF you HAD TO choose who eats, lets say they are each 100 miles in opposite directions and you had the food, who would you go to first?

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 11:36 AM
Killing yourself (suicide) so your baby can live? Are you saying killing yourself in this instance is NOT suicide??Can someone answer THIS question directly, please.

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:38 AM
Can someone answer THIS question directly, please.

you arent killing yourself.... you are risking your life, even if its high risk

HUGE VAST MAJOR difference

the mother is not commiting any self destructive act, she would be letting nature take its course

and again, abortion isnt fool proof either, the only only conclusive fact is that abortion with kill the child

everything else is risks, even a normal birth there is ALWAYS the risk of the mother and/ or child dying

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 11:39 AM
btw, by definition, I don't believe Christ committed suicide. By definition is sounds more like being a martyr
1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice. 3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.
4. a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.

While suicide (by definition) is:
1. the intentional taking of one's own life.
2. destruction of one's own interests or prospects: Buying that house was financial suicide.
3. a person who intentionally takes his or her own life.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit suicide.
–verb (used with object)
5. to kill (oneself).

Now...to be fair...there's not a LOT of difference between the 2-but I would say their IS a difference. I personally just feel you killing yourself (intentionally) so you baby can live fits in the suicide category. But I guess that's just me.

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 11:41 AM
you arent killing yourself.... you are risking your life, even if its high risk

HUGE VAST MAJOR difference

Phil-Suicide NOR abortion is 100%-people have survived both. Deion Sanders tried to commit suicide by driving his car off the side of a cliff. He survived. there have been MULTIPLE examples of people surviving. Also, I know their are different forms of abortion, but there have been cases of babies surviving this too... so in that respect, both are RISKING their life, it's not 100%

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:42 AM
btw, by definition, I don't believe Christ committed suicide. By definition is sounds more like being a martyr
1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice. 3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.
4. a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.

While suicide (by definition) is:
1. the intentional taking of one's own life.
2. destruction of one's own interests or prospects: Buying that house was financial suicide.
3. a person who intentionally takes his or her own life.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit suicide.
–verb (used with object)
5. to kill (oneself).

Now...to be fair...there's not a LOT of difference between the 2-but I would say their IS a difference. I personally just feel you killing yourself (intentionally) so you baby can live fits in the suicide category. But I guess that's just me.

ok you heading in the right direciton

suicide is a VERB, not a passive allowance

once again murder to increase your chance of survial is NOT justified ANYWHERE

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:43 AM
but there have been cases of babies surviving this too... so in that respect, both are RISKING their life, it's not 100%

yeah in the 70s, the art has been perfected now

but you are chosing to KILL your child, not "maybe he'll survive"

if we want to discuss, early c-section as an option, thats a WHOLE different issue

but a 1st trimester abortion, will NEVER have a child survive

if the pregnancy goes later into the survival chance of a child, i cant imagine anyone in this discussion wouldnt opt for that

The_Expositor
03-16-2007, 11:46 AM
btw, by definition, I don't believe Christ committed suicide. By definition is sounds more like being a martyr
1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice. 3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.
4. a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.

While suicide (by definition) is:
1. the intentional taking of one's own life.
2. destruction of one's own interests or prospects: Buying that house was financial suicide.
3. a person who intentionally takes his or her own life.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit suicide.
–verb (used with object)
5. to kill (oneself).

Now...to be fair...there's not a LOT of difference between the 2-but I would say their IS a difference. I personally just feel you killing yourself (intentionally) so you baby can live fits in the suicide category. But I guess that's just me.

Christ wasn't martyred. He laid down His life on His own. It was the Father who was "pleased to crush Him". No man was able to take His life from Him.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:46 AM
Can someone answer THIS question directly, please.



While suicide (by definition) is:
1. the intentional taking of one's own life.
2. destruction of one's own interests or prospects: Buying that house was financial suicide.
3. a person who intentionally takes his or her own life.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit suicide.
–verb (used with object)
5. to kill (oneself).

i honestly think you answered your own question! intentionally TAKING ones own life? no. that is not what happens when you leave it in Gods hands to decide.

However, it is CLEARLY sin to murder, which is what you would be doing when taking the baby's life.

Did i answer your question?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:47 AM
we're all dealing with hypotheticals!!!!

IF you HAD TO choose who eats, lets say they are each 100 miles in opposite directions and you had the food, who would you go to first?

smh, your examples are getting stretchier.

My wife is a grown woman who can feed herself. The child cannot.

Of course I'd go feed the child.

However, this is not the same as a child being in the womb threatening the life of my wife.

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:49 AM
smh, your examples are getting stretchier.

My wife is a grown woman who can feed herself. The child cannot.

Of course I'd go feed the child.

However, this is not the same as a child being in the womb threatening the life of my wife.

since you refuse to answer the hypotheticals

lets say it was a 50-50 chance of your wife dying... would you kill your child?

25-75?

75-25?

95-5?

5-95?

1-99?

99-1?

at what point is murder just to save the risk?

what percentage makes it a righteous option verses murder?

once again, a mother might die during abortion as well.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:55 AM
since you refuse to answer the hypotheticals

lets say it was a 50-50 chance of your wife dying... would you kill your child?

25-75?

75-25?

95-5?

5-95?

1-99?

99-1?

at what point is murder just to save the risk?

what percentage makes it a righteous option verses murder?

once again, a mother might die during abortion as well.

I am answering your hypotheticals. But there is not one set answer to them. They aren't the same as what the original question was. As for your percentages, how can we honestly say that those are the percentages. Read my words carefully. If the doctor were to come with to me, and say that if we deliver this child, your wife is going to die, we need an answer. Get ready, here it comes..."I WOULD CHOOSE MY WIFE".

If you consider that murder, then so be it.

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:56 AM
i sure hope ya'll dont let your wives have epedurals (sp?)

since statistically, a woman with an epedural is twice as likely to die during birth :O

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:57 AM
I am answering your hypotheticals. But there is not one set answer to them. They aren't the same as what the original question was. As for your percentages, how can we honestly say that those are the percentages. Read my words carefully. If the doctor were to come with to me, and say that if we deliver this child, your wife is going to die, we need an answer. Get ready, here it comes..."I WOULD CHOOSE MY WIFE".

If you consider that murder, then so be it.

ok, thank you for answering your own hypotheical

now, can you answer mine, what if he were to say "your wife is most likely going to die, but she might survive"

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:58 AM
ok, thank you for answering your own hypotheical

now, can you answer mine, what if he were to say "your wife is most likely going to die, but she might survive"

I'd choose my wife.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 11:58 AM
ok, thank you for answering your own hypotheical

now, can you answer mine, what if he were to say "your wife is most likely going to die, but she might survive"

not my own, just what the original post was about.

ctide
03-16-2007, 11:58 AM
I'd choose my wife.

what about, 50-50?

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 11:59 AM
If you consider that murder, then so be it.
is killing another person murder? (without it being an accident or in self defense)

ctide
03-16-2007, 12:00 PM
is killing another person murder?

better asked, "is killing another person who is legally innocent murder?"

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:01 PM
what about, 50-50?

That means that I don't know. And that means that probably the doctor is not going to come to me with that info. Because, everything could be considered 50-50. There's a 50-50 chance that when I walk out the house that I could die. It's an even, and is really nothing at all. So, no, I would not say let my wife die, cause they're probably not going to say that to me.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:02 PM
is killing another person murder? (without it being an accident or in self defense)

yes

ctide
03-16-2007, 12:06 PM
That means that I don't know. And that means that probably the doctor is not going to come to me with that info. Because, everything could be considered 50-50. There's a 50-50 chance that when I walk out the house that I could die. It's an even, and is really nothing at all. So, no, I would not say let my wife die, cause they're probably not going to say that to me.

okay cool, so you see you are really in a pickle.... cause honestly, they really can know for sure

im sure you personally know many cases of a person that was "deffinatly gonna die, or should have died" in a car wreck, gun shot, suicide, birth.... ect and survived.

if a doctor comes and says "your wife is guarenteed going to die" that doctor is a liar, and you need to get a new doc.

cause fam, i got some wicked upper-class white relatives that see abortion clinics in the ghetto as "crime-stoppers" nothing more.

i would think a poor black person or mexican is much more likely to be given ultimatum (sp?) then an upper class white person. - but hey, thats my politics coming out................

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 12:07 PM
If you consider that murder, then so be it.


yes

so, you consider it murder as well...

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:12 PM
okay cool, so you see you are really in a pickle.... cause honestly, they really can know for sure

im sure you personally know many cases of a person that was "deffinatly gonna die, or should have died" in a car wreck, gun shot, suicide, birth.... ect and survived.

if a doctor comes and says "your wife is guarenteed going to die" that doctor is a liar, and you need to get a new doc.

cause fam, i got some wicked upper-class white relatives that see abortion clinics in the ghetto as "crime-stoppers" nothing more.

i would think a poor black person or mexican is much more likely to be given ultimatum (sp?) then an upper class white person. - but hey, thats my politics coming out................



Not sure what that last part has to do with my decision. I'm not going to a clinic. And I agree that it would be a pickle, as it would for anyone. But if I had to choose, I would choose my wife. I think I've been pretty consistant in that. Honestly, I wouldn't care what anyone on HCR had to say about it. They wouldn't have to live with it, I would. For me to choose my child, would mean that I had to sacrifice my wife. So what is the difference? They are both people. Is it because we see children as being innocent? Well, they are not. But me, being a covenant believer, would hope in the fact that God would take my child. He doesn't deal indiviualistically, but He deals with families. And being that my child is a child of the covenant promises, then I'd choose my wife.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:13 PM
so, you consider it murder as well...

I consider it a sacrifice that I would have to make. I honestly don't know how much clearer I can be. No matter how you ask me, I'm going to say the same thing. I would choose my wife.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 12:20 PM
I consider it a sacrifice that I would have to make. I honestly don't know how much clearer I can be. No matter how you ask me, I'm going to say the same thing. I would choose my wife.

i didnt ask you a question, i was simply stating that you would consider it murder as well.

you would rather murder your child than allow the Lord to make the call.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:23 PM
i didnt ask you a question, i was simply stating that you would consider it murder as well.

you would rather murder your child than allow the Lord to make the call.

Yeah, I actually murdered my child.:rolleyes: I went into the womb and ripped it's little heart out. :rolleyes:

How do you know that my decision was not the Lord's?

lisajames96
03-16-2007, 12:29 PM
no i really didnt, why would i ask you to elaborate if i knew what u were talking about? :confused:

yes, that would be selfish, or at least not a selfless act of dying so that one could live. they didnt want to feel the pain of burning to death, so they jumped to their death instead. or possibly they thought they might survive the fall, who knows. but in either case, that is completely irrelivant.

you do not see a commandment that we are His children we would do as He did? besides, you are looking at it from the point of view of chosing either your wife or your child, when a woman looks at it, it is chosing herself or her child.

chosing yourself over your child is selfish. we are called to a life of self sacrificing love, yet when the ultimate sacrifice of ACTUALLY DYING so that another could live comes up, we want to live instead? we want to kill the baby instead of trust God that He could save the both if He so desired? we want to trust in our own understanding and our own ways, and committ MURDER instead of trusting in the Lord, that He will do according to what will give Him the most glory?

also, it is probably a good thing to note that it is rarely, if EVER, a 100% chance that the mother will die, its usually just a percentage, but not 100%.

I would have to agree with you here. In the end, it is FIRST a selfish act. One can argue over the nobility or justification of it after the fact. Our lives can easily be 99% selfish acts that we in our flesh constantly justify by the standard of our own conscience. Doesn't make them less selfish acts....just less hard on our flesh if we can justify them. A woman who chose to pay a doctor to rip her baby out of her tubes/womb so she could live as a Christian would still have to spend her days either miserable over what she did, or spend her days comforting her SELF by justifing her actions and hoping others would too. Because her mind now walks according to the Law of God and is at war with her flesh. She will know that she chose herself over someone else. Believe me, I know, and have talked to hundreds who are now as Christian women feel the same way when they are alone with themselves with no one to pat them on the back.

We all have to thank God for His Grace because we are All selfish and vain, but wont admit that first before we justify our actions....just my 2 cents worth :)

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:29 PM
I would like to apologize to those I have been sarcastic with. Even though I still hold to the same convictions, my manner of speak was not what it should have been.

I'm sorry to ctide and Jolene. And any others that I may have offended, or rubbed the wrong way.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 12:30 PM
Yeah, I actually murdered my child.:rolleyes: I went into the womb and ripped it's little heart out. :rolleyes:

How do you know that my decision was not the Lord's?

man, i didnt say you DID murder it i said u would RATHER murder it... goodness. If i have offended you bond, please forgive me! i believe that my conclusions are right and biblically based, but if i have portrayed it in a way that was ineffective or offensive, please forgive me.

I am only concerned that we all have a correct biblical view on this, that is why im dialoguing (spelling) about it.

is it the Lord's decision everytime someone decides to rape and murder an infant?

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 12:31 PM
I would like to apologize to those I have been sarcastic with. Even though I still hold to the same convictions, my manner of speak was not what it should have been.

I'm sorry to ctide and Jolene. And any others that I may have offended, or rubbed the wrong way.

WOW! THAT WAS SO WEIRD!!!! :eek: look at how God was convicting us both at the same time!!! and we said almost the same exact thing lol... :o

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:32 PM
I would have to agree with you here. In the end, it is FIRST a selfish act. One can argue over the nobility or justification of it after the fact. Our lives can easily be 99% selfish acts that we in our flesh constantly justify by the standard of our own conscience. Doesn't make them less selfish acts....just less hard on our flesh if we can justify them. A woman who chose to pay a doctor to rip her baby out of her tubes/womb so she could live as a Christian would still have to spend her days either miserable over what she did, or spend her days comforting her SELF by justifing her actions and hoping others would too. Because her mind now walks according to the Law of God and is at war with her flesh. She will know that she chose herself over someone else. Believe me, I know, and have talked to hundreds who are now as Christian women feel the same way when they are alone with themselves with no one to pat them on the back.

What about the husband? Reading some of you other posts I doubt that you wouldn't seek his wisdom in this. So it's not just your decision to make. In my case it would be my decision. But no matter what I chose, i would have to live knowing that I chose one over the other. So would this still apply?

Asking humbly

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:33 PM
WOW! THAT WAS SO WEIRD!!!! :eek: look at how God was convicting us both at the same time!!! and we said almost the same exact thing lol... :o

yeah but your apology was much sweeter than mine. :)

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 12:38 PM
honestly, i can see how this is causing conflict for husbands to make the decision... because on the one hand, the husband is called to love the wife, even above the children they are to have (if they have them), since they are one flesh... and how that might make a hard call in this case, in "choosing" one or the other.

however, in this instance, i think what we have to do is look at Gods word for the final authority. we are never called to sin, no matter what the circumstance is surrounding it... so to commit murder, in this case, is a sin... and we can be ASSURED that it is NOT Gods will for us to sin, right? so we should NOT commit murder, but step back, and give it to God. we do all we can as far as we can to prevent it, but in the end, its in Gods hands, and we shouldnt take it into our own... :o

lisajames96
03-16-2007, 12:39 PM
What about the husband? Reading some of you other posts I doubt that you wouldn't seek his wisdom in this. So it's not just your decision to make. In my case it would be my decision. But no matter what I chose, i would have to live knowing that I chose one over the other. So would this still apply?

Asking humbly
Hey BS!
You are correct. My husband would make the call. If his decision was to save my life and contract that killing, it is still an act of selfishness on both our parts. If I am obedient to him and lay there and let them do it, knowing it is a killing, not a self sacrifice of the child, I am not excused.

I wish I could find the scripts(can somebody help me out). But a wife is not excuse from a wrongdoing if she knows it is a sin and still goes along with it because it will please her husband.

Did I answer it BS?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:43 PM
honestly, i can see how this is causing conflict for husbands to make the decision... because on the one hand, the husband is called to love the wife, even above the children they are to have (if they have them), since they are one flesh... and how that might make a hard call in this case, in "choosing" one or the other.

however, in this instance, i think what we have to do is look at Gods word for the final authority. we are never called to sin, no matter what the circumstance is surrounding it... so to commit murder, in this case, is a sin... and we can be ASSURED that it is NOT Gods will for us to sin, right? so we should NOT commit murder, but step back, and give it to God. we do all we can as far as we can to prevent it, but in the end, its in Gods hands, and we shouldnt take it into our own... :o

Humbly and respectfully, I agree, but not totally. You are right about murder being sin. But you are also right to look at it through the eyes of a husband.

I'm called to love my wife, so much so to the point that I am to die for her, as Christ died for the church. I'm also the head of the household. So, it is my decision to make. If I were to let my wife die, wouldn't it be the same as if I let my child die? I'd have to sacrifice one, for the other.

I can't imagine my life without my wife. I can without the child. I know that sounds horrible, but it's true. Again, I look at this as a covenant believer(though I don't speak for all covenant believers), I would trust that God would take my child. It wouldn't be murder. If it is, then it is also murder to let my wife die.

This is not a precedent in scripture. Atleast I haven't seen any examples of it.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 12:46 PM
Hey BS!
You are correct. My husband would make the call. If his decision was to save my life and contract that killing, it is still an act of selfishness on both our parts. If I am obedient to him and lay there and let them do it, knowing it is a killing, not a self sacrifice of the child, I am not excused.

I wish I could find the scripts(can somebody help me out). But a wife is not excuse from a wrongdoing if she knows it is a sin and still goes along with it because it will please her husband.

Did I answer it BS?

you answered just fine sis. As that is your conviction. It would be wrong if you felt that it was murder. But I don't see it as murder. Atleast from the viewpoint of your husband. It's a choice. Who will he save? If it's murder to let the child die, then it's murder to let you die. Ultimately, God's will would be done in the end. And let's pray that this doesn't have to happen to any of us. But that if it did, may God's name be praised and His will accomplished(which will be anyway).

ctide
03-16-2007, 12:52 PM
Yeah, I actually murdered my child.:rolleyes: I went into the womb and ripped it's little heart out. :rolleyes:

How do you know that my decision was not the Lord's?

thats what you are saying you would choose

and i am afraid it is the wrong choise, not because I say it is

COVENANT THEOLOGY..... hmmmmm

so an abortion of a christian family's baby is justifide because they go to heaven? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

if its wrong, its wrong..... if it's just, its just..... covenant theology has nothing to do with it

and if you really wanna go that route, scripture says that murderers have no place in heaven..... so your baby wouldnt be in heaven according to covenant theology

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:00 PM
you answered just fine sis. As that is your conviction. It would be wrong if you felt that it was murder. But I don't see it as murder. Atleast from the viewpoint of your husband. It's a choice. Who will he save? If it's murder to let the child die, then it's murder to let you die. Ultimately, God's will would be done in the end. And let's pray that this doesn't have to happen to any of us. But that if it did, may God's name be praised and His will accomplished(which will be anyway).

feelings and convictions have nothing to do with wheather its wrong, man you sound like a left wing nut job

paul was talking about eating meat offered to idols, not murdering innocent blood

Quiet storm
03-16-2007, 01:01 PM
*sigh*

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:03 PM
*sigh*

"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the vitriolic words and violent actions of the "bad" people—but the appalling silence and indifference of the "good" people. Our generation will have to repent, not only for the words and actions of the children of darkness, but also for the fears and apathy of the children of light." MLK

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 01:04 PM
*sigh*

whats the sigh for?

Quiet storm
03-16-2007, 01:04 PM
Ctide check ur pm fam

lisajames96
03-16-2007, 01:07 PM
you answered just fine sis. As that is your conviction. It would be wrong if you felt that it was murder. But I don't see it as murder. Atleast from the viewpoint of your husband. It's a choice. Who will he save? If it's murder to let the child die, then it's murder to let you die. Ultimately, God's will would be done in the end. And let's pray that this doesn't have to happen to any of us. But that if it did, may God's name be praised and His will accomplished(which will be anyway).
Thanks. But I am wondering about what you said(hightlighted). I assume that is your viewpoint also. You are saying that a doctor killing the unborn child is not your murder, it's a choice? But who's choice, your's or the doctor's choice. If it's your choice, I agree. You have made a choice. I hope I didnt come off as arguing that point.

To BS or anyone...So trying to bring this about face. Is anyone saying that the choice of paying the doctor to kill the child isn't motivated by self interest? Can someone elaborate more on how it isn't selfish....Going back to read more, i may have missed it...

eternal
03-16-2007, 01:08 PM
I don't see that as a commandment.

But anyway...Yes, I would have to make that decision. I asked my wife this morning, what she would want to do. She didn't know. I would choose my wife. If I choose my baby, then I had to sacrifice her. Either way, I have to choose, who to save. I would save my wife.

me too

Quiet storm
03-16-2007, 01:14 PM
To BS or anyone...So trying to bring this about face. Is anyone saying that the choice of paying the doctor to kill the child isn't motivated by self interest? Can someone elaborate more on how it isn't selfish....Going back to read more, i may have missed it...

Wouldnt it be "self interest" either way you "pick". If a man prides himself in wanting to have a child and decides he can sacrifice his wife in doing so how is that different when it comes to "self interest".

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 01:17 PM
Wouldnt it be "self interest" either way you "pick". If a man prides himself in wanting to have a child and decides he can sacrifice his wife in doing so how is that different when it comes to "self interest".

would he pride himself in that, or be humbly submitting to God and trusting in God?

Quiet storm
03-16-2007, 01:18 PM
would he pride himself in that, or be humbly submitting to God and trusting in God?

I'm not sure what you are trying to ask could you be more clear? My point was to simply show that decided to choose to save your child could also be seen as "self interest".

eternal
03-16-2007, 01:19 PM
would he pride himself in that, or be humbly submitting to God and trusting in God?

Maybe we should trust God and decide to save our wives?

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:20 PM
Wouldnt it be "self interest" either way you "pick". If a man prides himself in wanting to have a child and decides he can sacrifice his wife in doing so how is that different when it comes to "self interest".

one is an act of murder, the other is not........ period, motives aside

somebody can do the right thing with ill motive, another can do the wrong this with good motives

we aren't discussing motive, we are discussing actions

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:21 PM
would he pride himself in that, or be humbly submitting to God and trusting in God?

I think men pride themselves in children, especially sons. I believe that could be one of the main reasons God tested Abraham. Abraham was proud of his child. Who wouldn't be. This was the promise that God gave him. Through His seed. So, I think men can pride themselves in children.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure what you are trying to ask could you be more clear?

sure, i'll try! what i'm saying is that a man who makes the decision *not* to have the abortion (and murder the child), but to trust in the Lord that you are doing as He has commanded (by not sinning, and trusting in the Lord for whatever He will do with your wife), would not be priding himself in that decision, but in the same way that we are obedient to Christ, even to death, but are not priding ourselves in it, but having the same mind as Christ, by being humbly obedient to His commandments.

did that clear it up?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:23 PM
one is an act of murder, the other is not........ period, motives aside

somebody can do the right thing with ill motive, another can do the wrong this with good motives

we aren't discussing motive, we are discussing actions

I'm not so sure there is a difference. You end up choosing to sacrifice one or the other. You may choose your child. That is fine. But I would choose my wife. To call me selfish, and a nut job is uncalled for, as your choice is no better than mine. I say this respectfully.

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:23 PM
Maybe we should trust God and decide to save our wives?

maybe we should trust God and obey his commandments, consiquenses aside

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 01:24 PM
Maybe we should trust God and decide to save our wives?

by committing murder?


I think men pride themselves in children, especially sons. I believe that could be one of the main reasons God tested Abraham. Abraham was proud of his child. Who wouldn't be. This was the promise that God gave him. Through His seed. So, I think men can pride themselves in children.
i think that men definately can, and if that was their motive, that could be a bad motive as well... see my post above this to see what kind of motive i was referring to :o

i have a question: does anyone think that the abortion of the child is NOT murder?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:24 PM
sure, i'll try! what i'm saying is that a man who makes the decision *not* to have the abortion (and murder the child), but to trust in the Lord that you are doing as He has commanded (by not sinning, and trusting in the Lord for whatever He will do with your wife), would not be priding himself in that decision, but in the same way that we are obedient to Christ, even to death, but are not priding ourselves in it, but having the same mind as Christ, by being humbly obedient to His commandments.

did that clear it up?

But how is one murder and not the other? If it is murder for the child, how is it not murder for the wife?

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:25 PM
I'm not so sure there is a difference. You end up choosing to sacrifice one or the other. You may choose your child. That is fine. But I would choose my wife. To call me selfish, and a nut job is uncalled for, as your choice is no better than mine. I say this respectfully.

first of all, i said you sound like a LEFT WING nut job

and i said that because you said "if you feel like its murder it is wrong for you to do"

murder is not an issue of feeling like its wrong or right

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:26 PM
i have a question: does anyone think that the abortion of the child is NOT murder?

depends on context for me. As in this case, I would abort the child.

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:26 PM
But how is one murder and not the other? If it is murder for the child, how is it not murder for the wife?

please look up the word murder

eternal
03-16-2007, 01:26 PM
maybe we should trust God and obey his commandments, consiquenses aside

Are you also among those who believe society should bleed itself to keep people articfically alive on machines and such?

Medicine/technology has complicated ethics so much. Most people alive today wouldn't be if it weren't for modern medicine. Most of us would have been terminated in the womb or shortly thereafter. But prenatal care has advanced so far that we are able to interfere and help.

So is the sin in not helping as much as we can, even though doing so pops up a whole slew of new ethical delimnas?

Quiet storm
03-16-2007, 01:27 PM
sure, i'll try! what i'm saying is that a man who makes the decision *not* to have the abortion (and murder the child), but to trust in the Lord that you are doing as He has commanded (by not sinning, and trusting in the Lord for whatever He will do with your wife), would not be priding himself in that decision, but in the same way that we are obedient to Christ, even to death, but are not priding ourselves in it, but having the same mind as Christ, by being humbly obedient to His commandments.

did that clear it up?


Out of curiousity just for the sake of clarity what scripture are you coming from when you say "by not sinning" when it comes to this scenario of saving a mother and not a child? My simple point that in both situations "self interest" could be a factor (when it comes to who you want to live) I dont see how it can ONLY be a factor in one and not the other.

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 01:28 PM
But how is one murder and not the other? If it is murder for the child, how is it not murder for the wife?

because the one you are giving the "ok" to kill the baby, so that would make it murder, where choosing to have the baby which may cause the death of the mother, is not giving the "ok" to kill the mother, but rather standing to the side and letting God be in control of it.

The abortion is an active, deliberate act of murder, the other is a passive act of trust in the soverignty of God.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:29 PM
first of all, i said you sound like a LEFT WING nut job

and i said that because you said "if you feel like its murder it is wrong for you to do"

murder is not an issue of feeling like its wrong or right

That really doesn't change the fact that I'm a nut job, but I don't care anyways so you can say what you want.


To her it would be murder, but that's not murder to me. We could place tons of stuff in different contexts and they wouldn't be the same. Like stabbing someone, or a doctor performing surgery. Same act, different motives.

This is not the same. For Lisa, she would save the child and die, because she feels that is murder. I would not, I would save Lisa, and abort the child. To me it's not murder, but a sacrifice. Choosing which one I would save.

How is it not murder to save the child and sacrifice the wife?

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:30 PM
Are you also among those who believe society should bleed itself to keep people articfically alive on machines and such?

Medicine/technology has complicated ethics so much. Most people alive today wouldn't be if it weren't for modern medicine. Most of us would have been terminated in the womb or shortly thereafter. But prenatal care has advanced so far that we are able to interfere and help.

So is the sin in not helping as much as we can, even though doing so pops up a whole slew of new ethical delimnas?

relivance?

eternal
03-16-2007, 01:30 PM
lol @ "left wing" being the slander. HAHA.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:30 PM
please look up the word murder

I know what murder means thank you.

eternal
03-16-2007, 01:30 PM
relivance?

Because we are talking about an issue that wasn't even possible in the bible days?

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:31 PM
That really doesn't change the fact that I'm a nut job, but I don't care anyways so you can say what you want.


To her it would be murder, but that's not murder to me. We could place tons of stuff in different contexts and they wouldn't be the same. Like stabbing someone, or a doctor performing surgery. Same act, different motives.

This is not the same. For Lisa, she would save the child and die, because she feels that is murder. I would not, I would save Lisa, and abort the child. To me it's not murder, but a sacrifice. Choosing which one I would save.

How is it not murder to save the child and sacrifice the wife?

are you a murderer because you haven't given all your money to feed the starving in africa?

Devin
03-16-2007, 01:32 PM
wow.thats a complicated issue.this reminds me of a sermon by Paul washer and marriage.He said he is called to lay down his life for his wife.he gave us an exteme example.lets just say paul and his wife and kids were water rafting and they all fell out and were trynna swim but paul had to pick and choose who he is gonna save...Paul said he would have no choice but to save his wife.because he is called to lay down his life for his wife.not children.kinda makes you think huh?

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:33 PM
Because we are talking about an issue that wasn't even possible in the bible days?

d@mn, to bad God doesnt understand modern medicine....... perhaps we should tell him about it

medical murder is murder

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 01:33 PM
Out of curiousity just for the sake of clarity what scripture are you coming from when you say "by not sinning" when it comes to this scenario of saving a mother and not a child?

i am coming from the 10 commandments: thou shalt not kill.


My simple point that in both situations "self interest" could be a factor (when it comes to who you want to live) I dont see how it can ONLY be a factor in one and not the other.

sure, self interest COULD be a factor, but what i am saying is that one is an active choice to kill another living being (not out of self defense or accident, as these were the only exceptions that God made in isreal, with the cities of refuge for those who committed murder); where the other way around (NOT killing the baby, but having the baby kills the mother) is not an ACTIVE choice of killing the mother, but trusting in the soverignty of God, that He can save her and keep her thru it, if it is His will.

eternal
03-16-2007, 01:33 PM
d@mn, to bad God doesnt understand modern medicine....... perhaps we should tell him about it

or ask God to write a new testament in scripture that disuses it?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:33 PM
because the one you are giving the "ok" to kill the baby, so that would make it murder, where choosing to have the baby which may cause the death of the mother, is not giving the "ok" to kill the mother, but rather standing to the side and letting God be in control of it.

The abortion is an active, deliberate act of murder, the other is a passive act of trust in the soverignty of God.

I disagree. Saying yes to one, means no to the other, no matter how you slice it. How much of a factor is in your conviction is based on this being a child, and the wife being a grown person?

By giving the ok to save the child, you are saying no to the wife. How can it not be seen as active murder of the wife, while passively trusting in the sovereignty of God?

Quiet storm
03-16-2007, 01:34 PM
i have a question: does anyone think that the abortion of the child is NOT murder?

If a couple is faced in a situation in which both WILL DIE in childbrith but the mother would be saved if the child is aborted then Im honestly not sure if I could call that murder. I am teachable on this but I would like to see from scripture where saving the life of the mother is sin. This is a difficult topic.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:34 PM
are you a murderer because you haven't given all your money to feed the starving in africa?

:confused:

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:35 PM
or ask God to write a new testament in scripture that disuses it?

you should write it and explain that murder isnt evil if it advances the greater good

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:36 PM
:confused:

i know you got alot going on, but try to think about it...... you're smart, i know you can figure it out

savedbygracealone
03-16-2007, 01:37 PM
wow, there was like 20 posts in between me making my post! lol...


wow.thats a complicated issue.this reminds me of a sermon by Paul washer and marriage.He said he is called to lay down his life for his wife.he gave us an exteme example.lets just say paul and his wife and kids were water rafting and they all fell out and were trynna swim but paul had to pick and choose who he is gonna save...Paul said he would have no choice but to save his wife.because he is called to lay down his life for his wife.not children.kinda makes you think huh?

ya, i heard that sermon! that is a good point, which is why i can understand the dilema that it puts men in! called to love their wife that much, but then we love God more, and we cant commit a sin of murder, no matter what our feelings are. i do understand tho! i hope i'm not coming off as if i dont understand the hard decision... but in that case, he is SAVING on, and not murdering the other... its the passive/active thing again.

in the boat flipping over thing, he is only able to save one so the other is left in the Lords hands.

same with allowing the baby to live, and leaving the wife in Gods hands.

but taking the baby's life is an active decision, and not leaving the baby's life in Gods hands, but taking it into your own.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:37 PM
i know you got alot going on, but try to think about it...... you're smart, i know you can figure it out

I'm sorry, but I don't understand.

lisajames96
03-16-2007, 01:38 PM
wow.thats a complicated issue.this reminds me of a sermon by Paul washer and marriage.He said he is called to lay down his life for his wife.he gave us an exteme example.lets just say paul and his wife and kids were water rafting and they all fell out and were trynna swim but paul had to pick and choose who he is gonna save...Paul said he would have no choice but to save his wife.because he is called to lay down his life for his wife.not children.kinda makes you think huh?
that is one of my fav sermons...but it doesn't seem to fit with abortion. Paul isn't being asked to actually kill one of his kids to save his wife from drowning. He says that he wouldn't go after the child to pull them from the water , but the mother. Not the same thing. It would be interesting to know what Mr Washer would do in that case too......would he pay the hospital to kill one of his sons so Charo could live?...hmmmmm(got me wanting to write a letter now Devin:D ...)

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:38 PM
wow, there was like 20 posts in between me making my post! lol...



ya, i heard that sermon! that is a good point, which is why i can understand the dilema that it puts men in! called to love their wife that much, but then we love God more, and we cant commit a sin of murder, no matter what our feelings are. i do understand tho! i hope i'm not coming off as if i dont understand the hard decision... but in that case, he is SAVING on, and not murdering the other... its the passive/active thing again.

in the boat flipping over thing, he is only able to save one so the other is left in the Lords hands.

same with allowing the baby to live, and leaving the wife in Gods hands.

but taking the baby's life is an active decision, and not leaving the baby's life in Gods hands, but taking it into your own.

saved, the bottom line is motive has little to do with the fact that the action is wrong

once folks understand that the action is wrong, there can be no way they have good motive behind the action

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:39 PM
saved, the bottom line is motive has little to do with the fact that the action is wrong

once folks understand that the action is wrong, there can be no way they have good motive behind the action

If it's wrong for the child, then it's wrong for the wife.

lisajames96
03-16-2007, 01:40 PM
wow, there was like 20 posts in between me making my post! lol...




I know right!...i know I have missed half of them. I will have to read when I get home too...

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:41 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand.

ok, certain people in poverty stricken countries will die due to starvation and lack of medicine

you havent sacrificed all your money and feed them or purchased medicine for them

instead you've purchased clothing in the last year and eat at a resturant from time to time

are you a murderer?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:43 PM
ok, certain people in poverty stricken countries will die due to starvation and lack of medicine

you havent sacrificed all your money and feed them or purchased medicine for them

instead you've purchased clothing in the last year and eat at a resturant from time to time

are you a murderer?

No, I don't understand how this relates to the topic.

I am not related nor responsible for them. They have a family. Even if I do give, I have no control over what happens to them. I'm not faced with the decision to save one over the other.

It's not at all related. :confused:

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:45 PM
If it's wrong for the child, then it's wrong for the wife.

once again, it is never EVER conclusively known that she will die

it is never conclusively EVER known that she will survive the birthing

and, once again.... you are not performing an act that kills her, nature is

the other option would be to commit murder because you actively deside to terminate a life

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:47 PM
once again, it is never EVER conclusively known that she will die

it is never conclusively EVER known that she will survive the birthing

and, once again.... you are not performing an act that kills her, nature is

the other option would be to commit murder because you actively deside to terminate a life

oh. But knowing that it would save your wife and actively rejecting it would be murder too.

ctide
03-16-2007, 01:53 PM
oh. But knowing that it would save your wife and actively rejecting it would be murder too.

actively rejecting what? actively rejecting the sin and moral crime of murder?

once again, we never KNOW either way

she might survive the birth, she might not survive an abortion

the only thing we do know is a child will not survive an abortion

it is not murder, it is caculated risk, in which my wife would certainly agree with me, and would not forgive me if I chose the other way around while she was unconscience.

Quiet storm
03-16-2007, 01:57 PM
i am coming from the 10 commandments: thou shalt not kill.
sure, self interest COULD be a factor, but what i am saying is that one is an active choice to kill another living being (not out of self defense or accident, as these were the only exceptions that God made in isreal, with the cities of refuge for those who committed murder); where the other way around (NOT killing the baby, but having the baby kills the mother) is not an ACTIVE choice of killing the mother, but trusting in the soverignty of God, that He can save her and keep her thru it, if it is His will.

Ok thanks for the clarity I think I understand your position now. So in a nutshell you see saving the mother as a violation of the 10 commandments because in order to do so you would have to actively end the child's life. In both cases a life will end but you see one case being active and one being passive correct? The passive one being justifiable and the active one being a violation of scripture? I honestly feel you have a good argument but at the sametime I am not convinced that when scripture states "thou shall not kill" that situations like these was the context. I think I will probably agree with Bondservant and save the life of my wife (simply because I do not feel situations like these were in the scope of the 10 commandments). Of course I know you and others will disagree with me but I am a flawed individual who is fallable so I know I could be wrong. I will let God deal with me on that. However in situations in which both will die (if the child is born) but the mother could be saved......would you still feel that it will be sin to save the mother? In my mind I think you will probably say something like "well we can never know for sure if both will die because God is soverign he can save both"(forgive me if I am wrong but I think I undertstand you). I am just curious as to how you flesh out your position.


P.S. Jo Jo I might start a thread in the theology section about "active/passive" death I hope you join in.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:58 PM
actively rejecting what? actively rejecting the sin and moral crime of murder?

once again, we never KNOW either way

she might survive the birth, she might not survive an abortion

the only thing we do know is a child will not survive an abortion

it is not murder, it is caculated risk, in which my wife would certainly agree with me, and would not forgive me if I chose the other way around while she was unconscience.

okay bro. I disagree, but okay.

CHRISTion
03-16-2007, 01:58 PM
Once again, I think the problem is that Jolene and Ctide SEEM (<----PLEASE don't miss that word) to be making this into a very simple, cut and dry issue, and I don't think it is. I'm with QS, Bondy and Eternal on this one...honestly, if asked which one to do, I'm choosing to save my wife. (perhaps we could have another child????)

BondServant
03-16-2007, 01:59 PM
Once again, I think the problem is that Jolene and Ctide SEEM (<----PLEASE don't miss that word) to be making this into a very simple, cut and dry issue, and I don't think it is. I'm with QS, Bondy and Eternal on this one...honestly, if asked which one to do, I'm choosing to save my wife. (perhaps we could have another child????)

Perhaps

ctide
03-16-2007, 02:02 PM
Once again, I think the problem is that Jolene and Ctide SEEM (<----PLEASE don't miss that word) to be making this into a very simple, cut and dry issue, and I don't think it is. I'm with QS, Bondy and Eternal on this one...honestly, if asked which one to do, I'm choosing to save my wife. (perhaps we could have another child????)

yo, the morals of it are cut and dry.... not easy.... and heck, if i was in that situation, who knows what i would do, but the moral issue is cut and dry

BondServant
03-16-2007, 02:03 PM
I think there is a lot of speculation coming from those who save the child.

Ctide feels that it's not garunteed that the mother would survive. This is true, but it's also no garuntee that even though you save the child, that it doesn't die soon after. In the end you lost both. They are calculated risks, but I'm not willing to lose my wife. Selfish? Maybe. My call? Absolutely. Would I make it everytime? You better believe it.

ctide
03-16-2007, 02:09 PM
I think there is a lot of speculation coming from those who save the child.

Ctide feels that it's not garunteed that the mother would survive. This is true, but it's also no garuntee that even though you save the child, that it doesn't die soon after. In the end you lost both. They are calculated risks, but I'm not willing to lose my wife. Selfish? Maybe. My call? Absolutely. Would I make it everytime? You better believe it.

only one death is certain, and that is if you opt to murder the child

on that note, im out

it was fun.... but im back into hiding (of course, now i know somebody's *cough*eter*cough*nal*cough* gonna try to saying something to provoke me to respond, but thats cool......)

eternal
03-16-2007, 02:10 PM
you should write it and explain that murder isnt evil if it advances the greater good

Aren't you in favor of war and the death penalty?

ctide
03-16-2007, 02:11 PM
(of course, now i know somebody's *cough*eter*cough*nal*cough* gonna try to saying something to provoke me to respond)


Aren't you in favor of war and the death penalty?

see

BondServant
03-16-2007, 02:13 PM
only one death is certain, and that is if you opt to murder the child


But I'd be doing it to save the life of my wife?!?!?

The_Expositor
03-16-2007, 02:15 PM
Aren't you in favor of war and the death penalty?

War killing isn't murder. If that's the case, then the atheists' charges that God sanctions murder would be true.

What's wrong with the death penalty? Isn't a death penalty given to all those who die without Christ? The problem isn't the death penalty, it's the faulty court system that locks up, convicts and sometimes executes people who didn't commit the crimes they were condemned for.

Devin
03-16-2007, 02:18 PM
Aren't you in favor of war and the death penalty?

whats wrong with war and death penalty?both practices are not condemened in the bible.

ctide
03-16-2007, 02:19 PM
But I'd be doing it to save the life of my wife?!?!?

commit certain murder to probably save your wife from probable death

ok im really done

BondServant
03-16-2007, 02:20 PM
commit certain murder to probably save your wife from probable death

ok im really done

to save a child that could probably die?!?!?

It's not that cut and dry fam.

ctide
03-16-2007, 02:21 PM
to save a child that could probably die?!?!?

It's not that cut and dry fam.

i agree, lets just make sure all the facts are stated, the ONLY certain death would be the aborted child

everything else (fatality risk, chance of survival) is all just risk factors

dont you agree?

BondServant
03-16-2007, 02:25 PM
i agree, lets just make sure all the facts are stated, the ONLY certain death would be the aborted child

everything else (fatality risk, chance of survival) is all just risk factors

dont you agree?

Yes, but that wasn't the point to the thread. Those things are to be considered. But if it came down to it. That if you don't abort this child, you will lose your wife, then all things considered, I'd choose my wife. Then everyone on HCR would call me a murderer. :(

$ea$hell$
03-16-2007, 02:31 PM
Yes, but that wasn't the point to the thread. Those things are to be considered. But if it came down to it. That if you don't abort this child, you will lose your wife, then all things considered, I'd choose my wife. Then everyone on HCR would call me a murderer. :(

Good brother,

I pray nobody on HolyCultureRadio.com will ever have to make this hard choise.

Do not believe I am trying to disagree with you. I only wish to express my opinion.

I believe the example of Jesus is how we should live our lives. Laying down our life for the sake of the lives of others.

I believe once a child is born, a good mother will always choose to die to let her child live.

I pray God will open the eyes of our people & of Congress to see that a person is a life no matter how small or hidden they are.

BondServant
03-16-2007, 02:35 PM
Good brother,

I pray nobody on HolyCultureRadio.com will ever have to make this hard choise.

Do not believe I am trying to disagree with you. I only wish to express my opinion.

I believe the example of Jesus is how we should live our lives. Laying down our life for the sake of the lives of others.

I believe once a child is born, a good mother will always choose to die to let her child live.

I pray God will open the eyes of our people & of Congress to see that a person is a life no matter how small or hidden they are.

Friend,

I agree with all you wrote. But in the context of the thread, it doesn't apply. I say that with respect to you.