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KFB
10-19-2006, 12:56 PM
What is the biblical context for this conflict? Do the palestinian's have a right to palestine?:confused:

eve
01-10-2007, 08:44 AM
several groups (the "-ites" such as the caananites and the girgaEph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29es) lived on that land until the descendants of abraham, isaac and israel (jacob) came. it was at that time that God (to whom the land really belongs) promised the land to them, the israelites.

the israelites lived on that land until they were overtaken and dispersed around the globe by others (including the babylonians and the assyrians), allowed by God because of their idolatry and disobedience. some of the remnant of these israelities stayed in the land, and the rest ended up in africa, asia and europe.

over the centuries, remnants from the israelites, the "-ites" that they hadn't totally destroyed, and other ethnic groups such as the people of arabia (the arabs) and the philistines and lebanese and people of syria and tyre, etc., moved there. since ancient times the land had been called Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine) by many, and even the KJV refers to that land as such.

fast forward to the 1500's, when the ottoman empire rose to power and basically controlled all the land in the middle east and beyond.

the ottoman turks were defeated by the allies during world war one, so the land they controlled was "given" to the control of the british. this was around the time that the european descendants of the israelites started pressuring the british government to cede the land of their ancestors to them. originally, this was met with opposition because of the fact that the land was already populated, but elevated persecution of the european descendants of the israelites over the following decades strengthened their case.

because the british controlled the land in the middle east, they were able to concede to the wishes of the european descendants of the isrealites through the "British Mandate," though there was much world opposition.

this created a conflict between the european jews and those peoples already on the land. the united nations stepped in and divided the land to resolve the conflict, and they have been fighting ever since.

palestinian argument: "had you people not come and stolen our homes and land, we wouldn't be forced to act like a people backed into a corner. go back to europe! we've been here for centuries. you left. now, you have us living as refugees because you want ancient land back?"

israeli argument: "six million of us were killed during the holocaust. the international community had an obligation to protect us. the british owned that land and had the right to do with it what it pleased. plus, that land was given to us by God. we've come to take it back."

and the conflict continues on ...

dremarshall
01-10-2007, 10:01 AM
What is the biblical context for this conflict? Do the palestinian's have a right to palestine?:confused:

Palenstine was originally Judea, so it does belong to the Isrealites.

eternal
01-10-2007, 10:03 AM
Palenstine was originally Judea, so it does belong to the Isrealites.

You think that argument would have flown in the exilic period? Egypt was condemned by God for helping Israel fight against it.....

eve
01-10-2007, 10:54 AM
this bring up some worthwhile questions:

(1) did God promise that land to the israelites forever (even during the exilic period)? if so, was it sinful for anyone to ever live there while the israelites were in exile? if not, can we justify the descendants of the israelites reclaiming it after centiries of exile?

(2) the OT shows God telling the israelites to slaughter the -ites who lived in the land, citing their sinfulness. back during the zionist movement last century when the european israelites returned, did God tell them to displace the inhabitants of the land? if so, where is that revealed in scripture? if not, how was this action not sinful. amny palestinian families still have keys to their families' homes in jerusalem they were never allowed to reclaim when they were booted out or not allowed to return to.

Rikki
01-10-2007, 10:58 AM
Also, when the land was given to Israel in '48, the Arabs were offered their own land also. THEY REFUSED IT, mainly because of their hatred for Israel/not wanting them to exist at all.

tlr
01-10-2007, 11:01 AM
It does not really matter what we think because God has already ordain where israel should be and it is a lot bigger than you think. politics of the gentiles can make it seem harsh that the jews have come back but forget that God has ordain for them to come back. History and prophesy have yet to colide so watch this space.

christians should not try align themselves against prophesy or they could find themselves in trouble. I have heard christians try and do this which is both sad and dangerous.

peace

eve
01-10-2007, 11:04 AM
Also, when the land was given to Israel in '48, the Arabs were offered their own land also. THEY REFUSED IT, mainly because of their hatred for Israel/not wanting them to exist at all.

please explain what they were offered.

was it like me going into your house and saying, "i'm going to take all of this, but you have the right to live in the bathroom"? was it like, "i'm going to take your house, but look at that house down the street - it's equal with this one. i give that to you"?

i haven't studied that agreement enough to speak on it, so i'm interested in what the palestinians refused. either way, to me, it's morally wrong to displace folk in most cases. nevertheless, telling folk "the bathroom or nothing" and "another house or the offer goes away" are two different things.

thanks Rikki :)

eve
01-10-2007, 11:06 AM
It does not really matter what we think because God has already ordain where israel should be and it is a lot bigger than you think. politics of the gentiles can make it seem harsh that the jews have come back but forget that God has ordain for them to come back. History and prophesy have yet to colide so watch this space.

christians should not try align themselves against prophesy or they could find themselves in trouble. I have heard christians try and do this which is both sad and dangerous.

peace

how would you respond to my two questions earlier in this thread?


(1) did God promise that land to the israelites forever (even during the exilic period)? if so, was it sinful for anyone to ever live there while the israelites were in exile? if not, can we justify the descendants of the israelites reclaiming it after centiries of exile?

(2) the OT shows God telling the israelites to slaughter the -ites who lived in the land, citing their sinfulness. back during the zionist movement last century when the european israelites returned, did God tell them to displace the inhabitants of the land? if so, where is that revealed in scripture? if not, how was this action not sinful. amny palestinian families still have keys to their families' homes in jerusalem they were never allowed to reclaim when they were booted out or not allowed to return to.

Rikki
01-10-2007, 11:11 AM
please explain what they were offered.

was it like me going into your house and saying, "i'm going to take all of this, but you have the right to live in the bathroom"? was it like, "i'm going to take your house, but look at that house down the street - it's equal with this one. i give that to you"?

i haven't studied that agreement enough to speak on it, so i'm interested in what the palestinians refused. either way, to me, it's morally wrong to displace folk in most cases. nevertheless, telling folk "the bathroom or nothing" and "another house or the offer goes away" are two different things.

thanks Rikki :)

I read this a while back, cuz I was really interested in this...I'll have to find where I got the info from. But what I remember most was that they were offered EQUAL land and refused it, encouraged by the other Arab nations who won't take them in, and that the land that Israel was given was mainly unoccupied. Those that WERE living there were not forced out, but allowed to stay where they were, provided they lived in peace. Much like today: They could live in Israel if they wanted to, provided the stop with the attacks.

On my lunch break, I will try to find the information and get back to you.

eve
01-10-2007, 11:21 AM
thanks, rikki. i'd never heard that before, so i'm interested in the link you'll post. again, i think even if you're displaced with equal land it's wrong to displace folk ... but what you're talking about is a different story than what i'd learned.

tlr
01-10-2007, 11:45 AM
how would you respond to my two questions earlier in this thread?

Q1
God spoke to abraham and showed him the land mass for his decendents. The israelites had to go into wilderness because of there unbelief for 40 years. the land is one of promise, with jerusalem at the centre. prophesy will be fufill, why do you think there is so much fighting. We still a few wars to go yet which will be bloodier than before.

Q2
this is not a question of sin but more a question of prophsey coming to pass before your very eyes. No ammount of politics will stop it. Remember jesus is going to come back to be a king in a temple. That temple will have to be built on the orginally grounds of the previous two. The anti christ will not be regonised by the jews till he sits in the temple. The times of the gentiles will end when the church is raptured and 144,000 jews will be released to preach the gospel.


There can a heavy price for disobediance as the jews have found out. We as christians must not forget who we really are and what our root is. God is constantly watching what we do concerning this matter which is why revelation, genesis, and the major prophtic books are very important.

peace

Rikki
01-10-2007, 12:02 PM
This is just one site I found, Eve:

http://www.masada2000.org/

Scroll down particularly to the headings "Palestine?" and "The Return to Zion"

Also read: "The great refugee scam" same site.

http://www.masada2000.org/RefugeeScam.html

Psalmist
01-10-2007, 01:46 PM
the ottoman turks were defeated by the allies during world war one, so the land they controlled was "given" to the control of the british. this was around the time that the european descendants of the israelites started pressuring the british government to cede the land of their ancestors to them. originally, this was met with opposition because of the fact that the land was already populated, but elevated persecution of the european descendants of the israelites over the following decades strengthened their case.

because the british controlled the land in the middle east, they were able to concede to the wishes of the european descendants of the isrealites through the "British Mandate," though there was much world opposition.

.
lets not forget that the British promised through Lawrence of Arabia that Palestine would be united under Islamic rule (the whole unification of the tribes thing). That is what allowed the allies to present a 3 front war, as opposed to a 2 front war and prohibited the turks to aid Europe in their fight. After the war was over, Britian just forgot about thier promise and thats when we see the conflict begin, and when we begin to see terrorism against western thought.

Rikki
01-10-2007, 02:05 PM
In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.

eve
01-10-2007, 03:18 PM
Q1
God spoke to abraham and showed him the land mass for his decendents. The israelites had to go into wilderness because of there unbelief for 40 years. the land is one of promise, with jerusalem at the centre. prophesy will be fufill, why do you think there is so much fighting. We still a few wars to go yet which will be bloodier than before.

Q2
this is not a question of sin but more a question of prophsey coming to pass before your very eyes. No ammount of politics will stop it. Remember jesus is going to come back to be a king in a temple. That temple will have to be built on the orginally grounds of the previous two. The anti christ will not be regonised by the jews till he sits in the temple. The times of the gentiles will end when the church is raptured and 144,000 jews will be released to preach the gospel.


There can a heavy price for disobediance as the jews have found out. We as christians must not forget who we really are and what our root is. God is constantly watching what we do concerning this matter which is why revelation, genesis, and the major prophtic books are very important.

peace

tlr, thanks for trying to answer my questions :)

your responses actually didn't answer the questions (1- did God promise them that land forever - which i just figured out the answer is "yes" according to scripture; and 2 - did God reveal that they are to displace people to get it back) which causes me to believe you don't know. that's ok.

at least the most important part of the question was answered - that God did say "it will be yours and your descendants'."

as for whether or not God suppots the WAY they're holding on to this land and all the bloodshed ... we'll have to look at what Scripture says about the character of God to determine that.

KFB
01-10-2007, 05:52 PM
This is just one site I found, Eve:

http://www.masada2000.org/

Scroll down particularly to the headings "Palestine?" and "The Return to Zion"

Also read: "The great refugee scam" same site.

http://www.masada2000.org/RefugeeScam.html

That's a Zionest site. I know Palestinian CHRISTIANS that would disagree strongly with the content on that site

BondServant
01-10-2007, 06:03 PM
Is it the actual land, or is it a heavenly land that abraham was promised?

Are the promises for Israel, or for the Israel of God(the church)?

KFB
01-10-2007, 06:04 PM
Is it the actual land, or is it a heavenly land that abraham was promised?

Are the promises for Israel, or for the Israel of God(the church)?

Great questions, I've heard both perspectives.

Rikki
01-11-2007, 08:29 AM
That's a Zionest site. I know Palestinian CHRISTIANS that would disagree strongly with the content on that site

That may well be..but is it historically CORRECT? I'm not saying everything they say is TRUE, because I haven't read it all. But what they are saying about Palestine NEVER being a state, about there never being a Palestinian people, that it was a construct to use against Israel...that's TRUE.